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Kidd is the Defacto DAL GM
#61
(02-05-2023, 08:45 PM)Kammrath Wrote: RIGHT NOW it is apparent that Kidd is the team's weakest link.

He is.
IMHO he totally sux.

But the Kyrie trade gave him a bit of time for a question mark to linger.

Kyrie + no wins = period of adjustment, a Kidd excuse and it's valid.
Kyrie + enough wins = makes Kidd look good.

But if Kyrie stays for more than just this season, Kidd will be EXPOSED.
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#62
(02-05-2023, 08:56 PM)cow Wrote: Nico:

+Luka extension 
+Wood trade
=Bullock signing
-McGee signing
-KP trade (tipping someone to take on one of the worst contracts in the league)
-Kyrie trade (UNPROTECTED '29
-Couldn't even get a conversation with Brunson's camp about resigning


And my contention is that Kidd is behind a lot of that....but the final negotiations are probably on Nico/Cuban.
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#63
(02-05-2023, 08:34 PM)Kammrath Wrote: The point being:

Kidd gets who Kidd wants. Nico is his errand boy.

The point being Nico is the GM. If he is Kidd’s errand boy then it is Cubans fault. Not Kidd’s.  I know your argument is that Kidd should not overstep his boundaries.  However that means there are two other glaring issues. Nico doesn’t have the spine to ask Kidd to back off or that Kidd is going directly to Cuban. 

Assuming Kidd is even doing that, an owner whose last front office regime ended in total chaos as he refused to define boundaries and roles doing the exact same thing immediately after is the one to blame here. The only one. 

But keep harping on Kidd and ignore the elephant in the room that will be in the room even after Kidd and Nico are gone. Blaming the dying branches and leaves of a tree that is rotten at the root is missing the obvious issue.
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#64
(02-05-2023, 08:58 PM)Kammrath Wrote: And my contention is that Kidd is behind a lot of that....but the final negotiations are probably on Nico/Cuban.

I don't think Kidd is negotiating the assets.   He's just has the shopping list.  Nico and Cuban are selecting the brands at the grocery store.  Honestly, Brunson cancelling the Mavs meeting when free agency started is when I check out on Nico.  He was supposed to be a relationship guy if nothing else.
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#65
Kidd is not the Defacto GM. Give it a rest. Nico isn’t even the GM. Cuban makes the decisions. He gets input from others of course, hopefully that includes the Head Coach - but enough already.
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#66
(02-05-2023, 08:59 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: But keep harping on Kidd and ignore the elephant in the room that will be in the room even after Kidd and Nico are gone.


I have NEVER ignored Cuban being an (the) issue. My only contention has been that if there was someone COMPETENT in place, that person would be able to overcome Cuban. I might be wrong there, but that is my belief. 

So YES Cuban sucks for hiring Kidd, but that does NOT change the fact that Kidd sucks MASSIVELY in both coaching and talent eval/desire.
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#67
(02-05-2023, 09:00 PM)cow Wrote: I don't think Kidd is negotiating the assets.   He's just has the shopping list.


100% agree.
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#68
(02-05-2023, 09:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: I have NEVER ignored Cuban being an (the) issue. My only contention has been that if there was someone COMPETENT in place, that person would be able to overcome Cuban. I might be wrong there, but that is my belief. 

So YES Cuban sucks for hiring Kidd, but that does NOT change the fact that Kidd sucks MASSIVELY in both coaching and talent eval/desire.

 The problem I have with your argument is that you agree Cuban is at fault but then turn around and blame Kidd also. 

Anyone who has been in management knows that when certain things keep repeating you look for the constant there. There was a poorly defined hierarchy even in the last regime. The GM was butting heads with another guy the owner had brought and the superstar was mocking the coach asking if this new guy was making the lineups. It was so bad that the real GM walked away in the middle of draft night.  Think how big a cluster that is. Does any other organization act like that?
L
This predates Kidd Now Kidd comes in and if history is repeating itself with hierarchies that are not being maintained then there is no collective blame. If you really are interested in a solution blame only the person who has the power to make a change here. That person is Cuban.  

The constant is Cuban. The one who can make a change is Cuban.  That is even assuming you are correct.  Nico might just be a terrible GM. What do we really know of his talent evaluation?   He never found any gems for Nike. From what I remember he was assigned to work with stars that were already in the fold.
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#69
(02-05-2023, 09:12 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: The problem I have with your argument is that you agree Cuban is at fault but then turn around and blame Kidd also. 


Can't speak for Kamm, but while I don't think the roster Kidd inherited was perfect (far from it), I think how he has coached the team for about 2/3 of the time he has worked here has been the biggest issue. 

I hate his offense. 

I don't care much for his defense, because it seems like when they don't give it maximum attention/effort, it immediately plummets from about 10th one of the league's worst. 

From where I sit, it doesn't seem like he is all he was advertised as in terms of motivating players, to this point. 

His game management in general and specifically ATO's are laughably bad. 

He is roughly 1/10 the coach Rick Carlisle was, imho. 

I don't think a semantic debate about who is pulling the strings is required to be displeased with the Kidd hire at this point.
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#70
(02-05-2023, 10:00 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don't care much for his defense, because it seems like when they don't give it maximum attention/effort, it immediately plummets from about 10th one of the league's worst. 

Not defending Kidd here because he reminds me of George Karl (more below*) but coaching a good defense with Luka Doncic is going to be a high degree of difficulty for anyone.

When Chauncy Billups was traded to Denver, he was shocked to find out that the team had no ATO plays.  I'm paraphrasing here but GK just let everyone do whatever they wanted.  So a shocked Chauncy grabbed a dry erase clipboard and drew up a play.
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#71
(02-05-2023, 10:00 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Can't speak for Kamm, but while I don't think the roster Kidd inherited was perfect (far from it), I think how he has coached the team for about 2/3 of the time he has worked here has been the biggest issue. 

I hate his offense. 

I don't care much for his defense, because it seems like when they don't give it maximum attention/effort, it immediately plummets from about 10th one of the league's worst. 

From where I sit, it doesn't seem like he is all he was advertised as in terms of motivating players, to this point. 

His game management in general and specifically ATO's are laughably bad. 

He is roughly 1/10 the coach Rick Carlisle was, imho. 

I don't think a semantic debate about who is pulling the strings is required to be displeased with the Kidd hire at this point.

This is a thread created to blame Kidd for GM decisions. There are others where Kidd’s coaching is being discussed   Kamm doesn’t seem to understand the basic issue of management that if hierarchies are being overstepped or not being well defined, then the person in charge ( the owner here) is to blame. Especially when there is clear documented evidence that this was happening in the last regime as well. Was Kidd to blame there as well?

If one is frustrated with Kidd’s coaching it doesn’t bolster their arguments by talking about other stuff that others are clearly responsible for and using that too to blame Kidd.  At that point it comes across as agenda driven.

If there are GM issues blame Nico. If as Mavs fans we want to see change hold the coach accountable for coaching decisions.  The GM for GM things which include monitoring the coach. The owner for owner decisions which includes monitoring the GM  and making sure the GM has full power to do what he is supposed to do. 

This franchise has been mired in this type of nebulous hierarchy for a decade now and fans playing favs on who they want to blame when in a normal well run organization you know exactly what each person does and if things in their area are slipping, then they and only they are held accountable. That’s how you get results.  That’s why this should  100% be on Nico if the GMing is poor.  Just like any coaching criticism should 100% be on Kidd.
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#72
(02-06-2023, 09:53 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote:  That’s why this should  100% be on Nico if the GMing is poor.  Just like any coaching criticism should 100% be on Kidd.


Sure. I'd fire them both yesterday if it were up to me. 

What I disagree with, from your POV, is that because Cuban and Harrison are showing signs of possible disfunction, there's no point in trying to evaluate Kidd, the Coach. I think Kidd, the coach, is the most glaring issue with this franchise right now, by far. 

...or at least I did, before they traded for Irving.
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#73
(02-06-2023, 11:27 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Sure. I'd fire them both yesterday if it were up to me. 

What I disagree with, from your POV, is that because Cuban and Harrison are showing signs of possible disfunction, there's no point in trying to evaluate Kidd, the Coach. I think Kidd, the coach, is the most glaring issue with this franchise right now, by far. 

...or at least I did, before they traded for Irving.

I believe the overall point to be. Blame Kidd for his terrible coaching this year. Don't also try and pin every bad roster move/decision on him as the "Defacto GM". Can't have it both ways and praise Nico for a move you like and then bash Kidd for moves we don't like.

Kidd should be criticizedzed all day and night for his poor caching this year, no doubt about it.

Edit: Also, most of us are smart enough to know it's not so simple. There are a lot of voices and a lot of conversations had on any moves a multi-billion dollar business makes.
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#74
I'd like to petition the admins to remove this thread.

It's stupid conjecture.
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#75
(02-06-2023, 11:27 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Sure. I'd fire them both yesterday if it were up to me. 

What I disagree with, from your POV, is that because Cuban and Harrison are showing signs of possible disfunction, there's no point in trying to evaluate Kidd, the Coach. I think Kidd, the coach, is the most glaring issue with this franchise right now, by far. 

...or at least I did, before they traded for Irving.

No I didn’t say that.  I said on another thread I don’t consider Kidd a great coach but the talent level was also not that great, and even RC had struggled with late game plays even during that historic offense year.  Plus if we are talking about a Xs and Os guy, Luka was not listening to a championship coach like RC because of the dysfunction. Why would things change if another coach like that was brought in without the overall dysfunction changing?  

However having said all that I had also said that I am fully on board if the Mavs bring in Snyder. Kidd surprised me last year and I also think a lot of things will stay the same unless Luka is handled a bit more sternly, but if you remember I was not a fan of either Kidd or Nico’s hire from Day 1.
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#76
(02-06-2023, 12:26 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: No I didn’t say that.


My apologies if I've misinterpreted you (and frankly, I'm learning that I'm one of the few around here who bother to try to keep track of people's takes over time) but I got the impression from the last 6-7 times you picked this fight with Kammrath that you felt Kidd couldn't be evaluated because of the disfunction at the top of the organization. As in, the top is so bad and the roster is so dysfunctional, that Kidd hasn't actually been given a chance to coach. That's what I'm addressing, because if that's what you believe, I vehemently disagree.
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#77
(02-05-2023, 09:12 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote:  The problem I have with your argument is that you agree Cuban is at fault but then turn around and blame Kidd also. 

Anyone who has been in management knows that when certain things keep repeating you look for the constant there. There was a poorly defined hierarchy even in the last regime. The GM was butting heads with another guy the owner had brought and the superstar was mocking the coach asking if this new guy was making the lineups. It was so bad that the real GM walked away in the middle of draft night.  Think how big a cluster that is. Does any other organization act like that?
L
This predates Kidd Now Kidd comes in and if history is repeating itself with hierarchies that are not being maintained then there is no collective blame. If you really are interested in a solution blame only the person who has the power to make a change here. That person is Cuban.  

The constant is Cuban. The one who can make a change is Cuban.  That is even assuming you are correct.  Nico might just be a terrible GM. What do we really know of his talent evaluation?   He never found any gems for Nike. From what I remember he was assigned to work with stars that were already in the fold.



Not the first time this has happened in the last 20+ years of Cuban ownership.
The PREVIOUS GM was so dysfunctional that he was at the draft and had to beg Donnie NOT to draft Podkolzine when he found out his power was revoked. 
Now I do appreciate mark as an owner, he is exponentially better than Ross Perot Jr and Frank Zach the Hack. But the new has worn off, the Championship trophy has tarnish, and mark is not above reproach or criticism. Heck at this point, well lets give this trade a chance - Not much faith in this working, but anything can happen.
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#78
We brought in a guy in Wood whose defense has been suspect and one who despite obvious talent has not stuck around in any of his many previous destinations.  As a coach myself ( despite just some local rec level) , I know the only leverage I have to get someone to do what I want if they are not listening is playing time. Maybe Kidd is stricter on him because Wood can be a difference maker if someone can get through to him. Yet I saw thread after thread where Kidd was getting blamed. 
There seemed to be no effort to look at it from Kidd’s POV despite us having evidence that Kidd was willing to work and give a long rope to even a player like Josh. So why would anyone think that Kidd was not willing to work with Wood or that he had something personal against him?  

When players found themselves in RC’s doghouse the defense was we weren’t privy to practices and other things. Why wasn’t that same leeway accorded to Kidd?

Even in the historic offense year, I remember us struggling in close games to get a good shot. We were great when we were running and gunning but when things slowed down we looked clueless.  Was that RC’s fault or a combination of talent level around Luka being low, plus Luka being a bit selfish?  We had the same things this year after Brunson was let go, but it was made out like Kidd was some sort of dumb guy who couldn’t design plays.  Was RC dumb when the same things were happening?  At no stop in his career has Kidd ever been called dumb when it comes to hoops. Savant is the word frequently used and even RC has talked about long conversations here where he learned from Kidd and vice versa. RC was the one who recommended Kidd unless you believe he was vindictive and wanted the Mavs to fail.  Does any of this mean Kidd is a great coach? No. Most great players don’t make great coaches but he is not a dumb guy either. 

When Hardy had his one breakout game, I again saw Kamm posting tweets from others saying how Kidd had held him back. We all saw Hardy in SL. We all saw his struggles and knew he is a long term prospect . Why would anyone who saw that feel Kidd was holding him back? Plus sure enough as soon as Hardy got more minutes he showed his rawness 

So the non stop criticism of Kidd on those things I felt were unfair. I also look at the fact that the dysfunction and Luka (mocking RC) played a part in RC leaving. Prior to the Kyrie trade we lost the only other player on our roster that most teams would consider somewhat as a star.  So the talent level is also something any coach would struggle with.  Which coach is Luka going to listen to willingly defer possessions to when the talent disparity is so much? Which coach can reduce his load when the talent disparity is so much?  

I am perfectly fine to let Kidd go today if the argument is one prefers a more creative, open offense type of coach. If that is what you want that makes sense. It is just that it seemed like there was a constant criticism of Kidd this season here for many of the other things above where I felt folks never looked at from Kidd’s Pov. Be fair with the criticism
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#79
(02-06-2023, 01:21 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: When players found themselves in RC’s doghouse the defense was we weren’t privy to practices and other things. Why wasn’t that same leeway accorded to Kidd?


For me, it's because I SAW evidence with my own two eyes, almost constantly, that Carlisle knew what he was doing. Like, ALL THE TIME. That, for me, bought him quite a bit of benefit of the doubt when it came to the choices I didn't immediately understand. I found myself trying to figure out why he did what he did, rather than assume he didn't understand what I did. More often than not, given enough time, the motivation for each puzzling thing became clear, and there was transparent method to his approach that I understood by the end of his tenure here. He really is a great coach. IND is lucky to have him.

I did the same for Kidd last year, and to his credit, the changes they made to the offensive system from about a month before the all star break were GREAT, and directly led to the team's success down the stretch, imo. But then, they started THIS season trying to do the same tired, outmoded, knuckle-dragging crap that ruined the first 3rd of last season, which really bummed me out. I haven't completely given up any hope that he'll win me back over, but I feel I've given him a chance with an open mind and for me, he just hasn't earned that benefit of the doubt.
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#80
(02-06-2023, 01:21 PM)hakeemfaan Wrote: We brought in a guy in Wood whose defense has been suspect and one who despite obvious talent has not stuck around in any of his many previous destinations.  As a coach myself ( despite just some local rec level) , I know the only leverage I have to get someone to do what I want if they are not listening is playing time. Maybe Kidd is stricter on him because Wood can be a difference maker if someone can get through to him. Yet I saw thread after thread where Kidd was getting blamed. 
There seemed to be no effort to look at it from Kidd’s POV despite us having evidence that Kidd was willing to work and give a long rope to even a player like Josh. So why would anyone think that Kidd was not willing to work with Wood or that he had something personal against him?  

When players found themselves in RC’s doghouse the defense was we weren’t privy to practices and other things. Why wasn’t that same leeway accorded to Kidd?

Even in the historic offense year, I remember us struggling in close games to get a good shot. We were great when we were running and gunning but when things slowed down we looked clueless.  Was that RC’s fault or a combination of talent level around Luka being low, plus Luka being a bit selfish?  We had the same things this year after Brunson was let go, but it was made out like Kidd was some sort of dumb guy who couldn’t design plays.  Was RC dumb when the same things were happening?  At no stop in his career has Kidd ever been called dumb when it comes to hoops. Savant is the word frequently used and even RC has talked about long conversations here where he learned from Kidd and vice versa. RC was the one who recommended Kidd unless you believe he was vindictive and wanted the Mavs to fail.  Does any of this mean Kidd is a great coach? No. Most great players don’t make great coaches but he is not a dumb guy either. 

When Hardy had his one breakout game, I again saw Kamm posting tweets from others saying how Kidd had held him back. We all saw Hardy in SL. We all saw his struggles and knew he is a long term prospect . Why would anyone who saw that feel Kidd was holding him back? Plus sure enough as soon as Hardy got more minutes he showed his rawness 

So the non stop criticism of Kidd on those things I felt were unfair. I also look at the fact that the dysfunction and Luka (mocking RC) played a part in RC leaving. Prior to the Kyrie trade we lost the only other player on our roster that most teams would consider somewhat as a star.  So the talent level is also something any coach would struggle with.  Which coach is Luka going to listen to willingly defer possessions to when the talent disparity is so much? Which coach can reduce his load when the talent disparity is so much?  

I am perfectly fine to let Kidd go today if the argument is one prefers a more creative, open offense type of coach. If that is what you want that makes sense. It is just that it seemed like there was a constant criticism of Kidd this season here for many of the other things above where I felt folks never looked at from Kidd’s Pov. Be fair with the criticism

It seems like this all boils down to (not to trivialize, mind you): A coach's life is much easier and his job performance can be evaluated much more easily if the front office is not chaotic and functions properly. I totally agree!

But, I also think the concept is true in reverse.

I think Luka, Dinwiddie, Hardaway, Wood, Green, DFS, Bullock, Powell and Kleber is a perfectly fine NBA rotation. Not a contender, but definitely something that should've been better than what we saw this year IF coached by someone able to design systems that capitalize on strengths and motivate them to rise to their top level of play.
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