IT'S HARDY TIME: Jaden Hardy looking like a decent prospect

[Mavs2021]

Yes, but as soon as you start losing games because the young players made mistakes, then the even angrier mob is calling for the coaches' head on a platter.

That´s why I always said, if you cannot absorb to give your rookies/2nd year players 10-15 minutes in regular spots (B2B games/ vs. tanking teams etc.) to develop, then the problem is not the rookies, it´s your overall talent level.

Winning 42-46 games, while maximizing veteran rotations during the post championship era, only to get wrecked in the first round based on inferior talent, remains one of the dumbest strategies. Not all 42 wins come equal and the Mavs regular season wins were always pretty useless.

It´s not only about the rookie development itself, it´s also about the trust an agent puts into presenting his client in the best possible way during pre-draft workouts, cause he knows the Mavs as an organisation give his player one of the best opportunities to succeed at the next level. If you have a bad reputation agents will try to avoid directing their best prospects toward your organisation.

Therefore it´s important that with the regime change the results are starting to look more favourable. That´s actually an area where I think Harrison´s connections and expertise really help the most.

I´m not buying into the whole Harrison/Kidd/Irving love affair. That was likely about the under the table promises made on the summer extension. Whether Nico and Kidd really have a special relationship with Irving will be proven by how long they can keep him under control and well behaved.

At least Nico was smart enough to pick Irving up at the airport personally. Cuban/Donnie/Carlisle would have told him to catch an Uber.

[Scott41theMavs]

Yes, but as soon as you start losing games because the young players made mistakes, then the even angrier mob is calling for the coaches' head on a platter.

This has been an argument around here for years. It's always amazed me looking around the league at how every other team, including playoff teams, seemed to be able to give their young players minutes and develop them without hurting their win-loss significantly. If you have young players who have a reasonable number of professional and competent vets around them, and give them trust in that context, they develop without hurting the win-loss. We're seeing this at work with Green and Hardy. I deplore Kidd as an X's and O's and rotations coach, but he absolutely destroys Carlisle as a developer of young players. At least with the Mavs. Carlisle seems to be doing better with this in Indiana.

[KillerLeft]

This has been an argument around here for years. It's always amazed me looking around the league at how every other team, including playoff teams, seemed to be able to give their young players minutes and develop them without hurting their win-loss significantly. If you have young players who have a reasonable number of professional and competent vets around them, and give them trust in that context, they develop without hurting the win-loss. We're seeing this at work with Green and Hardy. I deplore Kidd as an X's and O's and rotations coach, but he absolutely destroys Carlisle as a developer of young players. At least with the Mavs. Carlisle seems to be doing better with this in Indiana.

It's actually really simple.

1) Yes, there's a layer of experience that can only be gained during real game play.

2) Yes, it's in the organization's best interest to reach that point (and then get on with it) as early in a player's development as possible.

3) No, if the young player is not living up to the expectations laid out for him during in-house practices, THOSE issues aren't going to magically improve by forcing him into real game situations. In fact, the opposite is true, and it's possible to damage the player's confidence (in addition to the obvious: hurting the team's chances to be effective) which is counterproductive, of course.

4) No, we can't assume that because a young player isn't in games, it's somehow the coach's fault, philosophically. The individual player (this isn't a video game, people are different) might just not be ready. 

5) In the event of #4, the coach might be justified for not playing the young player yet, but might still be at fault for a lack of developmental focus during practice intended to get the young player ready. But, it could also just be the young player not rising to the challenge, and there are a hundred factors other than size, athletic ability or talent that could derail someone in their first couple of seasons. 

6) At the end of the day, there's no systemic approach that will work in every situation, because individuals and the circumstances they find themselves in are singular. Different. Statements like "10 minutes in every game as a rookie, and they need to be in the rotation by year 2" are just not indicative of how real life works. 

7) Since we don't KNOW what's going on behind the scenes, and the coaches do, and also because even the worst NBA coach of all time knows more about basketball than anyone on this board would, even if they quit their job and focused only on that for a decade, working yourself into a frenzy over this argument is one of the more pointless things that goes on here on a regular basis. 

I think ANY coach would be playing Green and Hardy this much, but that's because of their unique states of readiness (heck, this year 3 or 4 for Green, and Hardy isn't even a rookie - he played pro ball last year instead of going to college) and because of the roster circumstances (injuries and such) that have surrounded them. 

I could also make an argument, based on how terrible Green looked early on in his career, that having the opportunity to be behind guys like DFS and Bullock on a successful team WITHOUT the pressure of producing right away might have HELPED him become the player he is today.

[Smitty]

It's actually really simple.

1) Yes, there's a layer of experience that can only be gained during real game play.

2) Yes, it's in the organization's best interest to reach that point (and then get on with it) as early in a player's development as possible.

3) No, if the young player is not living up to the expectations laid out for him during in-house practices, THOSE issues aren't going to magically improve by forcing him into real game situations. In fact, the opposite is true, and it's possible to damage the player's confidence (in addition to the obvious: hurting the team's chances to be effective) which is counterproductive, of course.

4) No, we can't assume that because a young player isn't in games, it's somehow the coach's fault, philosophically. The individual player (this isn't a video game, people are different) might just not be ready. 

5) In the event of #4, the coach might be justified for not playing the young player yet, but might still be at fault for a lack of developmental focus during practice intended to get the young player ready. But, it could also just be the young player not rising to the challenge, and there are a hundred factors other than size, athletic ability or talent that could derail someone in their first couple of seasons. 

6) At the end of the day, there's no systemic approach that will work in every situation, because individuals and the circumstances they find themselves in are singular. Different. Statements like "10 minutes in every game as a rookie, and they need to be in the rotation by year 2" are just not indicative of how real life works. 

7) Since we don't KNOW what's going on behind the scenes, and the coaches do, and also because even the worst NBA coach of all time knows more about basketball than anyone on this board would, even if they quit their job and focused only on that for a decade, working yourself into a frenzy over this argument is one of the more pointless things that goes on here on a regular basis. 

I think ANY coach would be playing Green and Hardy this much, but that's because of their unique states of readiness (heck, this year 3 or 4 for Green, and Hardy isn't even a rookie - he played pro ball last year instead of going to college) and because of the roster circumstances (injuries and such) that have surrounded them. 

I could also make an argument, based on how terrible Green looked early on in his career, that having the opportunity to be behind guys like DFS and Bullock on a successful team WITHOUT the pressure of producing right away might have HELPED him become the player he is today.

This is astute.

[cow]

It's a good post, KL.  Not that you are doing it, but we can't equate Josh to Jaden.  Josh has hit walls along the way and look stunted which makes this season even more remarkable for him.  He showed flashes last year but more often than not looked like a deer in the headlights.  Those flashes are what he's bringing consistently now so kudos to him.  

Hardy is built different.  He's hit walls too, but he tends to smash through them on the next opportunity.  We know he's basketball fiend, loves practicing and coaching.  I'm sure Josh does too but Hardy has the "it" factor, the confidence you just can't teach.  He's always comfortable out there no matter who he is playing alongside.  That's not to say that he will not meet a wall that he can't run through, but we need to keep feeding his basketball computer minutes and luckily for him, he's going to get that opportunity as he and Josh are really the only one's capable of creating offense for themselves and others and boy does our second unit need that help.

I'm probably higher on Hardy than most but he has something that was noticeable right away.

[KillerLeft]

Totally agree, @"cow". So many people have described him as “raw” and I think they’re either using that word differently than I would or just stating assumptions based on his youth without analyzing his game. His decision making needs some work, for sure, but as you say, it’s improving fast. The learning is noticeable from game to game. 

His footwork, handles, variety of shot attempt solutions, etc? None of that was anywhere close to “raw”…from his first preseason game, my takeaway was how insanely polished and advanced all of that was.

[KillerLeft]

I said this the other day, but part of what’s working is that the Mavs have low key (limited opportunity) become a good drafting team. 

Luka (seems easy in retrospect, but a lot of pros were down on him back then)
Brunson (some were saying he wasn’t even the best player on his college team)
Green (took a while, but he got there)
Hardy 

Bey and Terry were both disappointing, but there was reason for hope at the time. That’s 4/6, including trading up or back into the draft like three times. That, my friends, is more than a hint of a noticeably different approach than what we’ve come to expect. Part Donnie, part Voulgaris, part Harrison and hopefully a lot of Finley, since he’s the one who connects the whole timeline together, and I get the sense he’s sort of the “personnel evaluation” guy around there right now…whatever it is, I hope the trend continues.

[Smitty]

Totally agree, @"cow". So many people have described him as “raw” and I think they’re either using that word differently than I would or just stating assumptions based on his youth without analyzing his game. His decision making needs some work, for sure, but as you say, it’s improving fast. The learning is noticeable from game to game. 

His footwork, handles, variety of shot attempt solutions, etc? None of that was anywhere close to “raw”…from his first preseason game, my takeaway was how insanely polished and advanced all of that was.

To explain my definition of raw when I use it for what I see in Hardy.

His pace is bad at times. In a hurry at times which gets him in trouble with his ball handling in traffic. He has a lot of confidence when shooting but handling the ball, he does not. Also, he can’t seem to play defense without fouling which is normal for young players.

Right now he is a shooting guard in every sense of the traditional definition which is ok. Just that he has a lot of work to do if he wants to become more than that some day.

I think he’ll get there.

[cow]

I said this the other day, but part of what’s working is that the Mavs have low key (limited opportunity) become a good drafting team. 

Luka (seems easy in retrospect, but a lot of pros were down on him back then)
Brunson (some were saying he wasn’t even the best player on his college team)
Green (took a while, but he got there)
Hardy 

Bey and Terry were both disappointing, but there was reason for hope at the time. That’s 4/6, including trading up or back into the draft like three times. That, my friends, is more than a hint of a noticeably different approach than what we’ve come to expect. Part Donnie, part Voulgaris, part Harrison and hopefully a lot of Finley, since he’s the one who connects the whole timeline together, and I get the sense he’s sort of the “personnel evaluation” guy around there right now…whatever it is, I hope the trend continues.

I think any team would be ecstatic to go four of six on picks.

[KillerLeft]

To explain my definition of raw when I use it for what I see in Hardy.

His pace is bad at times. In a hurry at times which gets him in trouble with his ball handling in traffic. He has a lot of confidence when shooting but handling the ball, he does not. Also, he can’t seem to play defense without fouling which is normal for young players.

Right now he is a shooting guard in every sense of the traditional definition which is ok. Just that he has a lot of work to do if he wants to become more than that some day.

I think he’ll get there.

I don’t think “more than a SG” is or should be a goal of his. 

Agree on the pace…kind of agree on the handles, but THAT is due to pace and driving into areas he shouldn’t. Decision making, to me. Not a question of the tried and true dribble moves he’s clearly worked on the way a typical 26-year old pro has, but rather a question of when and where it’s a good idea to use them. It’s all big-picture, mental stuff with him, imo, and not the usual “you actually aren’t as practiced with these skills as you thought you were, now that we’re at a new level” stuff you typically see.

[Smitty]

I don’t think “more than a SG” is or should be a goal of his. 

Agree on the pace…kind of agree on the handles, but THAT is due to pace and driving into areas he shouldn’t. Decision making, to me. Not a question of the tried and true dribble moves he’s clearly worked on the way a typical 26-year old pro has, but rather a question of when and where it’s a good idea to use them. It’s all big-picture, mental stuff with him, imo, and not the usual “you actually aren’t as practiced with these skills as you thought you were, now that we’re at a new level” stuff you typically see.

Well, I don’t want his ceiling to be THJ. A shooter that can’t/won’t dribble and one that doesn’t play defense. Obviously Timmy has made a lot of money and had a great career but I’d much rather him work on his handles, understand his limitations on his decision making and find a way to study and/or work on it. Put an emphasis on getting better defensively so that he’s not always out of position and fouling, which will allow him to stay on the floor. Just the normal things that take time. That’s why I just saw “raw” or “a year away”.

[cow]

Well, I don’t want his ceiling to be THJ. A shooter that can’t/won’t dribble and one that doesn’t play defense. Obviously Timmy has made a lot of money and had a great career but I’d much rather him work on his handles, understand his limitations on his decision making and find a way to study and/or work on it. Put an emphasis on getting better defensively so that he’s not always out of position and fouling, which will allow him to stay on the floor. Just the normal things that take time. That’s why I just saw “raw” or “a year away”.

Again, I'm higher on him that most.  His floor is already higher than THJ as he has the skillset to create for himself and we've seen him create for others (corner three for Josh in the past game).  He's way more comfortable and capable than THJ with the ball in his hands.  THJ is a better defender (don't laugh) but most of that is Tim hustles and has figured out how to draw charges.  Hardy has starter potential and I think at worst he'll be a 6th man running an offense.

[Mavs2021]

I don’t think “more than a SG” is or should be a goal of his. 

Agree on the pace…kind of agree on the handles, but THAT is due to pace and driving into areas he shouldn’t. Decision making, to me. Not a question of the tried and true dribble moves he’s clearly worked on the way a typical 26-year old pro has, but rather a question of when and where it’s a good idea to use them. It’s all big-picture, mental stuff with him, imo, and not the usual “you actually aren’t as practiced with these skills as you thought you were, now that we’re at a new level” stuff you typically see.

He´s also too small to be a SG. As you say it´s the decision-making process of when to stop for a pull-up jumper, when to drive to the rim, when to shoot the three, when to pass. He can do all those things. He has the ball-handling skills and court vision. Biggest question is whether he´ll have the shooting part. Right now, he´s in the puppy stage, where bad overall shooting is expected- If he can figure that out, he´s a score first PG. He ain´t no SG.

Green is a SG. Everybody likes to pretend he´s a SF and I don´t get it. He´s 6´5, super-fast and can handle the ball sufficiently. What exactly makes him a SF? But that is perfectly fine on the Mavs. Defensively Irving is the PG, Green is the SG and Luka is the SF/PF, depending which is worse offensively on the other team.

[KillerLeft]

He´s also too small to be a SG. As you say it´s the decision-making process of when to stop for a pull-up jumper, when to drive to the rim, when to shoot the three, when to pass. He can do all those things. He has the ball-handling skills and court vision. Biggest question is whether he´ll have the shooting part. Right now, he´s in the puppy stage, where bad overall shooting is expected- If he can figure that out, he´s a score first PG. He ain´t no SG.

Green is a SG. Everybody likes to pretend he´s a SF and I don´t get it. He´s 6´5, super-fast and can handle the ball sufficiently. What exactly makes him a SF? But that is perfectly fine on the Mavs. Defensively Irving is the PG, Green is the SG and Luka is the SF/PF, depending which is worse offensively on the other team.

I disagree that he's too small, and generally think that's a limiting thought process. I think a player's skill set determines his position. 

But, I'll agree that in order to play the 2, he'll need some overlap in skills. I think we can call him a combo guard, at least. Maybe that's what you mean by "score first PG"...but, that's literally all PG's now. It's not really a thing anymore, if I understand what you're defining. 

If he is to be a starter, he's going to need to be an off-ball player, imo. Maybe he plays some PG with the 2nd unit, which is great! There's a loooooong history of very successful players who fit that description, and I, personally, would call them all SGs.

[LukaMVP]

guy may be short but he is beefy so he ain't got troubles matching up with other guards or even SFs. An all-round comboguard is my expectation for him. hope he can develop into a marcus smart type of player defensively, and a jason terry type at the other end of floor.

[cow]

guy may be short but he is beefy so he ain't got troubles matching up with other guards or even SFs. An all-round comboguard is my expectation for him. hope he can develop into a marcus smart type of player defensively, and a jason terry type at the other end of floor.

I'm not sure you'll see the defense.  I still like to think of him as a smaller version of Beal/Pierce.

[Dundalis]

It's a good post, KL.  Not that you are doing it, but we can't equate Josh to Jaden.  Josh has hit walls along the way and look stunted which makes this season even more remarkable for him.  He showed flashes last year but more often than not looked like a deer in the headlights.  Those flashes are what he's bringing consistently now so kudos to him.  

Hardy is built different.  He's hit walls too, but he tends to smash through them on the next opportunity.  We know he's basketball fiend, loves practicing and coaching.  I'm sure Josh does too but Hardy has the "it" factor, the confidence you just can't teach.  He's always comfortable out there no matter who he is playing alongside.  That's not to say that he will not meet a wall that he can't run through, but we need to keep feeding his basketball computer minutes and luckily for him, he's going to get that opportunity as he and Josh are really the only one's capable of creating offense for themselves and others and boy does our second unit need that help.

I'm probably higher on Hardy than most but he has something that was noticeable right away.

Agree with all this, but I remain skeptical on Hardy not being treated exactly like he was following his last 20+ point game. We all thought he'd start to see more minutes. It didn't happen, he still got garbage time only. I have a feeling it's going to be exactly the same the rest of the way, and will take Luka and Kyrie being out for him to get decent minutes again. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Well, I don’t want his ceiling to be THJ. A shooter that can’t/won’t dribble and one that doesn’t play defense. Obviously Timmy has made a lot of money and had a great career but I’d much rather him work on his handles, understand his limitations on his decision making and find a way to study and/or work on it. Put an emphasis on getting better defensively so that he’s not always out of position and fouling, which will allow him to stay on the floor. Just the normal things that take time. That’s why I just saw “raw” or “a year away”.

Regardless of the flaws in his handle, he is already right now in his raw state, light years ahead of THJ as a ball handler. Not even close.

[ItsGoTime]

He’s pretty consistently gotten 5 mpg for a while now in the 2nd quarter. Many of you guys were asking for “at least that”. Never enough.

[Dundalis]

He’s pretty consistently gotten 5 mpg for a while now in the 2nd quarter. Many of you guys were asking for “at least that”. Never enough.

Many are saying that he should not be getting less minutes than THJ, because well.. he's straight up not worse than him at minimum, and probably a good chance to produce better than him given those minutes. Giving guys minutes because tenure and no other reason is dumb IMO.

[MFFL]

Hardy with 5 turnovers tonight. Just a little out of control.