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TRADE: DM to CLE | Markkanen + Sexton + Agbaji + 3 1sts + 2 swaps to UTA
#61
(09-06-2022, 10:50 AM)mvossman Wrote: Why?  You don't think 4 unprotected firsts and 3 swaps plus salary filler would be enough if Toronto decides to rebuild?


Oh, sure. And then what? 

Do you think Luka/Siakim, the same role players they have now (only not in their primes anymore) and no remaining picks to deal for help get it done? 

I've looked at this potential future, and I feel it's a dead end.

Further, if Cuban even would be willing to do this, I'd bet my last dollar he wouldn't do it until the ink is dry on Luka's next contract (can't blame him) so we're a WAYS off from anything like this happening, imo.
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#62
KL, I think the Big Trade is their target. Whether or not a Cuban-led FO* is going to be efficient at creating and amassing assets for such a trade (or for ANY purpose) is a different topic.

However, mvossman has done a succinct job of summarizing their pick-acquiring "plan" -- they only need to bide their time until after the 2023 draft, at which point they will have 4 unprotected FRPs and 3 swaps in their war chest, more than enough for any target imo. And they will continue to have that same arsenal, continuously available until they use it, just so long as they don't make a trade to lessen it. Thus, my pov on the idea of whether they would even consider trading a FRP right now.

Obviously it would be better if you didn't have to make picks unprotected, or could trade fewer, or had some from other teams in your bank. Unfortunately, Cuban sucks at asset acquisition, and we're stuck with that.


*From what we're starting to see and hear, even though he hired Nico to be the "GM," Cuban is still micro-managing the job and apparently making the decisions like he always has -- so it's going to be hard (or next-to-impossible) for them to become any good at those things. Blind leading the blind, with very predictable results, as it's said.
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#63
(09-06-2022, 11:33 AM)F Gump Wrote: However, mvossman has done a succinct job of summarizing their pick-acquiring "plan" -- they only need to bide their time until after the 2023 draft, at which point they will have 4 unprotected FRPs and 3 swaps in their war chest, more than enough for any target imo.


I don't disagree with this or any other of your points, really. But here's the thing:

If Cuban trades picks that include years after Luka's current deal expires, he's a total, absolute moron. If he doesn't, this big trade won't happen, regardless of what target we salivate over. Since they can't even access that pick package until after the first year of Luka's deal, I'm not super hopeful about the window of this plan. 

All I'm saying is that while weighing all of the permutations above, really thinking about where they could lead, smaller deals involving fewer picks that will come and go more quickly and not totally cripple the franchise for 5 years at a time start to seem preferable, at least to me.
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#64
(09-06-2022, 11:39 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don't disagree with this or any other of your points, really. But here's the thing:

If Cuban trades picks that include years after Luka's current deal expires, he's a total, absolute moron. If he doesn't, this big trade won't happen, regardless of what target we salivate over. Since they can't even access that pick package until after the first year of Luka's deal, I'm not super hopeful about the window of this plan. 

All I'm saying is that while weighing all of the permutations above, really thinking about where they could lead, smaller deals involving fewer picks that will come and go more quickly and not totally cripple the franchise for 5 years at a time start to seem preferable, at least to me.

Yeah you certainly have to hope it works and doesn't flame out in a KP situation
But that deal is also probably the only way you keep Luka here long term (if it works)
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#65
(09-06-2022, 11:39 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Since they can't even access that pick package until after the first year of Luka's deal, I'm not super hopeful about the window of this plan. 

....................

All I'm saying is that weighing all of the permutations above, really thinking about where they could lead, smaller deals involving fewer picks that will come and go more quickly and not totally cripple the franchise for 5 years at a time start to seem preferable, at least to me.

Where they are is where they are. The timing on their window for "next Big Trade" is not great, but their past errors in FO-ing and unlucky lottery balls landed them where they are. DSJ was a bad draft choice, leading to KP as a swing-and-a-miss (they could have had players like Adebayo or Collins or Mitchell instead of DSJ), and they are about to have a clean slate to try again.

While in theory you may have some good points, I think what you see as "preferable" is something they would see as undisciplined re the road to where they want to be (to get that clean slate and be able to try again), and perhaps rightly so.

Re trading picks past Luka's contract, there are several valid counter-arguments to that "problem."
1st, they would be making a trade to persuade Luka to stay, and feel such a swap would be more likely to make that happen. In which case, none of the picks would last beyond Luka's tenure in Dallas, since he will be going nowhere.
2nd, Luka has never given any negative vibes about being here. He's the oppo-Lebron/KD mindset, basically.
3rd, the contractual rules favor Luka signing the next contract with the Mavs. Big diff in money.
4th, if Luka wanted to leave eventually, Mavs would trade him for a fortune to someone, and hopefully reload around Big Trade target they get (instead of being sucky and landing in the lottery with top draft slots).
5th while having 4 unprotected and 3 swaps would be enough ammo, there's nothing to prevent them from trading fewer than ALL, and in fact I wouldn't expect they would trade ALL. Or, they might trade one or more of them WITH some protection, in the same way they did when trading for KP where the only unprotected pick was during a time sure to have Luka still here.
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#66
@"F Gump" I hear you, trust me. 

I guess the bottom line for me is that I have zero faith that they'll figure this out. I am officially at the end of my rope and having trouble mustering up the interesest to be a fan. This is the first day in some time I've even read stuff here carefully. 

I feel like I can see the end of the story already.
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#67
(09-06-2022, 12:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @"F Gump" I hear you, trust me. 

I guess the bottom line for me is that I have zero faith that they'll figure this out. I am officially at the end of my rope and having trouble mustering up the interesest to be a fan. This is the first day in some time I've even read stuff here carefully. 

I feel like I can see the end of the story already.

Yeah I get that. I'm only arguing about how they ARE CHOOSING to operate, and not about their likelihood of being good at it.

For me, the Cuban-as-a-GM model has been a major fail, and it's hard to see how they ever get beyond that low ceiling of Cuban's limits. I think he sees himself as an expert in all these GM-ing areas (when he's far from it), and since he's calling the shots, their roster-building has to work with a handicap when competing against the guys who are really great at these things. I was hoping it would be different with Nico, but instead it looks like it's the same-ole same-ole, only with a newbie feeding ideas to Cuban now, instead of Donnie doing so.
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#68
(09-06-2022, 12:30 PM)F Gump Wrote: I was hoping it would be different with Nico, but instead it looks like it's the same-ole same-ole, only with a newbie feeding ideas to Cuban now, instead of Donnie doing so.
Who was a newbie at everything but scouting when given the position.
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#69
(09-06-2022, 12:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @"F Gump" I hear you, trust me. 

I guess the bottom line for me is that I have zero faith that they'll figure this out. I am officially at the end of my rope and having trouble mustering up the interesest to be a fan. This is the first day in some time I've even read stuff here carefully. 

I feel like I can see the end of the story already.

It's strange that your outlook is so negative compared to say last offseason.  I would argue we are in a better place now than we were after last offseason:

Instead of the dread of waiting for the next KP injury, we have the excitement of seeing what Wood can do on a good team.

Instead of Luka/Brunson we have Luka/Dinwiddie, which looks better now than the other did last offseason (before Brunson blew up)

Instead of Boban/Burke/WCS/Brown/Chriss, we have McGee and Bertans.  It may be at the edges, but big upgrade.

We are only one season away (instead of two) from having access to all of our picks and have not screwed that up yet.

We just went to the WCF as opposed to getting bounced in first round prior two seasons.

The bungling of Brunson was not good, but to be honest he was only a significant asset midway through last season, and by then it was too late.  I was just as frustrated with this FO last offseason when we did nothing with our last chance to use cap space before Luka extension other than run it back.  At least they did something good with the Wood trade.  There was nothing I was particularly happy with last offseason (Bullock turned out better than expected).
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#70
(09-06-2022, 02:00 PM)mvossman Wrote: It's strange that your outlook is so negative compared to say last offseason.  I would argue we are in a better place now than we were after last offseason:

Instead of the dread of waiting for the next KP injury, we have the excitement of seeing what Wood can do on a good team.

Instead of Luka/Brunson we have Luka/Dinwiddie, which looks better now than the other did last offseason (before Brunson blew up)

Instead of Boban/Burke/WCS/Brown/Chriss, we have McGee and Bertans.  It may be at the edges, but big upgrade.

We are only one season away (instead of two) from having access to all of our picks and have not screwed that up yet.

We just went to the WCF as opposed to getting bounced in first round prior two seasons.

The bungling of Brunson was not good, but to be honest he was only a significant asset midway through last season, and by then it was too late.  I was just as frustrated with this FO last offseason when we did nothing with our last chance to use cap space before Luka extension other than run it back.  At least they did something good with the Wood trade.  There was nothing I was particularly happy with last offseason (Bullock turned out better than expected).

I disagree with your point regarding Brunson, but I agree with the rest. 

Idk, man, I kind of gave them a pass last season because of the front office turnover. Past that, I guess chalk it up to a lifetime of seeing this all play out. They finally broke me. Further, I just hate to see them move away from what worked, not only by moving away from the three playmakers, but cultivating a roster construction that doubles down on what specifically was NOT working prior to the KP trade.
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#71
(09-06-2022, 02:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I disagree with your point regarding Brunson, but I agree with the rest. 

Idk, man, I kind of gave them a pass last season because of the front office turnover. Past that, I guess chalk it up to a lifetime of seeing this all play out. They finally broke me. Further, I just hate to see them move away from what worked, not only by moving away from the three playmakers, but cultivating a roster construction that doubles down on what specifically was NOT working prior to the KP trade.

I feel like the two big on the floor concerns are a little over blown.  The KP/Powell pairing worked well enough a couple of years ago when it was the best offense in NBA history.  Things went sideways this last season when KP decided he wanted to post up when Powell was on the floor.  Our current starting lineup supposedly only has one big (McGee) and the second unit will have two mobile ones (Maxi and Wood).  McGee and Wood prolly wont share that much court time, and I don't think it will that big of a problem when they do.
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#72
(09-06-2022, 05:13 PM)mvossman Wrote: I feel like the two big on the floor concerns are a little over blown. 

I am happy for you. I do not concur.
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#73
(09-06-2022, 05:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I am happy for you. I do not concur.

I feel like it's a huge problem too but also will believe that it's happening when I see it.  Kidd coached one way at the beginning of last season and was very different by the end of the season, they preached certain roster philosophies at the beginning of last season and were different by the playoffs.

Losing Brunson sucked really bad but this board has really overreacted to this summer.  If we can add one more quality ball handler before the playoffs then we have last year's recipe with a bolstered front court.  We just gave Luka the best pick and roll partner he's probably ever played with.  

Not trying to be a blind sunshine pumper but it just feels as if most of the board has decided we've ruined the career of someone who's only 23...
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#74
(09-06-2022, 05:41 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Not trying to be a blind sunshine pumper but it just feels as if most of the board has decided we've ruined the career of someone who's only 23...

Oh, idk…I’d say the vast majority has already moved on and started to talk themselves into the future again, both short term and long.
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#75
(09-06-2022, 12:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @"F Gump" I hear you, trust me. 

I guess the bottom line for me is that I have zero faith that they'll figure this out. I am officially at the end of my rope and having trouble mustering up the interesest to be a fan. This is the first day in some time I've even read stuff here carefully. 

I feel like I can see the end of the story already.

I feel you and I certainly will not tell you how to feel.   I am sort of straddling the fence.   Losing Brunson hurt me.  I felt like I was raising the banner for the past few seasons that Jalen was better than most mavs fans and our front office thought.   I have been wrong plenty, but I was right on Jalen.   I said Jalen is going to help us win important games.    As good as Jalen is, at the end of the day he can be replaced.   Finding someone who is tough, doesn't make a lot of mistakes and plays winning ball will be really tough, but not impossible.

With Luka, we have a major advantage over 25 other franchises right off the bat.    Players like Jalen can help win championships but players like Luka (and 5-7 others) make championships possible.   

I expect us to drop back a little this year.  We may wind up better but I will be surprised if we have a similar playoff run.   I will be watching closely how this new front office deliberately builds this roster, How they develop internally, and how they move on when they decide it is time.   As much as I want a team that is one of the top 3 teams in the league, I would actually feel worse if they made a panic, win now move that hurt our chances for the future.   Many have problems with Morey and I see them.  But I really appreciate how he is always looking for value and looks under every rock.   Heck, they made a move today for Harrell.   He probably won't help in the playoffs but he is a guy who was available that I am confident will outperform his contract.   Can the Mavs find a similar flawed player in the backcourt who will also outperform his contract?
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#76
(09-06-2022, 05:54 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Oh, idk…I’d say the vast majority has already moved on and started to talk themselves into the future again, both short term and long.

Interesting.  I tend to focus on a handful of posters here so maybe it's just my selective memory but I've felt the opposite.  Maybe that should also be concerning me...
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