ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[Mavsfan12]

No one throws random role players in. You always target specific role players in trades or FA. There are going to be role players that don't fit. We literally had some on our roster last season. Every team has them. It's also possible that Wright and Richardson work a lot better under Kidd than Carlisle. There are plenty of things that the likes of Bullock, DFS and Kleber DON'T do that people are just straight up overlooking in favor of what they do well. IMO things they don't do contributed heavily to us losing to GSW just as much as things they do well helped get us there.

Roster continuity is important, but it's not nearly important as having the best players. It's not about one thing is important and the other isn't, it's a matter of how much relative value they have. Our role players and the chemistry they have are not more important than trying acquire better players if possible to put out on the court.


See to me this is one of the primary reasons we lost to Golden State. They had shot creators all over the place. Our team of 'specialists' got exposed, because the likes of Bullock DFS and Kleber have to have every shot they take handed to them on a silver platter or they are close to useless offensively. That's why Luka has to be so ball dominant, and also had to have someone like Brunson step into the starting lineup to take pressure off him having to be responsible for hand feeding all the guys he plays with that have zero shot creation ability. You can say we are just built that way, but I say we are that way by necessity and it's a sub optimal solution. On offense it's like Luka is playing with a bunch of hungry infants. Might be good to have some more adults to take the pressure off.

I think you could take role players with less defense but more shot creation and not lose a beat in terms of overall on court performance as just an example, though I understand not wanting to compromise on defense and I would agree with that. In fact having more shot creators could have the knock on effect of reducing Luka's usage AND not requiring that he have another primary ball handler on the court with him so he isn't completely gassed and playing on fumes in the 4th quarter all the time helping him be all round more efficient, even on defense (yeah he needs to get in better shape, but having a lineup full of spot up only shooters doesn't help, his usage is not a recipe for long term success or his long term health and longevity). Fans seem to be locked into the mindset of this is how our game style is setup around Luka and it requires the very specific set of skills the role players we have on the team possess or it might/will fall apart. Don't agree with that at all. There is a lot that is being currently compensated for in our game style and usage of players due to the inadequacies of the role players we have.

I think that is a key point and one that you are ignoring.  As we sit around here, acting like our thoughts on Mavs roster building matters, we ARE commenting on specific trades and whether or not we would do them.  Or if those are the type of players that we would target.  We have blown through countless names just this offseason.  It isn't so much that "we" are blinded by our own players as we have opinions on roster building and some players don't fit into that vision - for any number of reasons.  Cost to acquire, skillset, off court considerations...  they all come into play.  You are complaining about the PROCESS of debate on this board rather than discussing actual players and making cases for/against them.  There are going to be differences in opinion - that's kind of the point.

The second bold is an example where I STRONGLY disagree with you... I think that our defense is being held together at times by smoke and mirrors and relying WAY too heavily on the precious few that can execute it.  The guys you label as "role" players are holding our playoff lives in their hands.  We don't get to where we do without their skillsets.  Individually, they may not be "stars".  But in the team concept that the Mavs employ, our core players have much more value and are greater than the the mere sum of there individual worth.  They have more value because of Luka - and Luka has more value because of them.  You can't just replace them with "better" players and hope for same results. Thybulle is a good example.  Is he a better defender than DFS?  The league would say so, since he is making All-D teams.  If you replaced DFS with Thybulle, are the Mavs a better team?  I don't think it is close.  DFS shooting nearly 40% from 3 the last two seasons is a HUGE part of our team concept and is a way that Luka is able to do what he does.  A reason Din has amazing driving lanes.  That their pnr game is so deadly.  It MATTERS who those players are and what they can do.  

As for me, I think our defense needs help - much more than our offense.  I would love to pick up an additional creator.  I think we need one.  Suggest some stuff.  Let's discuss it.  I see people discussing it all the time and making arguments for/against.  I just don't buy when someone comes in and says that it is all about the boys in blue.  I am not that invested on any of the players.  I root for the name on the front of the jersey - as do most people here.  I grow fond of players that I see giving it all for the team, but I don't have to let that cloud objectivity.  I think our defense needs help and want to see us CONTINUE to acquire and keep 2 way players, unless there is too much value to overlook a trade.  That is how teams do it too when 2 contenders trade.  Everyone would want most of the top players in the league - what are you going to prioritize.

[Mavsfan12]

I'd have to disagree with this assessment of Wood and Sexton. I think you are overplaying their "red flags". Why are they available? 

1) This year's #3 pick (expected to be Banchero, ended up being Jabari Smith), Alperen Sengun and Darius Garland. 
2) High cost contract extensions upcoming.

Question about Sexton.  Is there even a path to acquiring him?  Still can't do a snt without shedding salary, correct?  So we would have to pay assets to get off a contract, then pay assets to acquire Sexton?  Hmmm...  I don't think he is worth it.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

We should try to sign one of the three lead guards of the B2B EuroLeague champions Efes Istanbul.

Everyone knows it’s one lead guard and two guys riding coattails.

[Omega_Supreme]

How would you guys feel about this 

Knicks Receive - Brunson (Sign and Trade), Maxi Kleber, Josh Green 
Mavs Receive - Lauri Markkanen, Sexton, 2023 protected first (Dallas) + pick swap 2023 w/ New York
Cavs Receive - Fournier, Cam Reddish, Taj Gibson, 2024 Mavs 1st protected

[VintagePejav2]

How would you guys feel about this 

Knicks Receive - Brunson (Sign and Trade), Maxi Kleber, Josh Green 
Mavs Receive - Lauri Markkanen, Sexton, 2023 protected first (Dallas) + pick swap 2023 w/ New York
Cavs Receive - Fournier, Cam Reddish, Taj Gibson, 2024 Mavs 1st protected

Hate it.

[Mavsfan12]

How would you guys feel about this 

Knicks Receive - Brunson (Sign and Trade), Maxi Kleber, Josh Green 
Mavs Receive - Lauri Markkanen, Sexton, 2023 protected first (Dallas) + pick swap 2023 w/ New York
Cavs Receive - Fournier, Cam Reddish, Taj Gibson, 2024 Mavs 1st protected

Guys, I don't think we can take in a SnT...  I don't know why we are targeting Sexton.  I don't think anything has changed enough that would allow us to get under the apron to participate in that.  If I am wrong, let me know.

I am not a fan of Markkanen either.  The only positive from this is that it frees up our picks to make a big swing - but for who?

---

Note, a team may only acquire a veteran free agent through a sign-and-trade if, after the transaction is completed (and at all times thereafter for that salary cap year), the team’s team salary is less than the tax level plus the tax apron. 

[HoosierDaddyKid]

I think that is a key point and one that you are ignoring.  As we sit around here, acting like our thoughts on Mavs roster building matters, we ARE commenting on specific trades and whether or not we would do them.  Or if those are the type of players that we would target.  We have blown through countless names just this offseason.  It isn't so much that "we" are blinded by our own players as we have opinions on roster building and some players don't fit into that vision - for any number of reasons.  Cost to acquire, skillset, off court considerations...  they all come into play.  You are complaining about the PROCESS of debate on this board rather than discussing actual players and making cases for/against them.  There are going to be differences in opinion - that's kind of the point.

The second bold is an example where I STRONGLY disagree with you... I think that our defense is being held together at times by smoke and mirrors and relying WAY too heavily on the precious few that can execute it.  The guys you label as "role" players are holding our playoff lives in their hands.  We don't get to where we do without their skillsets.  Individually, they may not be "stars".  But in the team concept that the Mavs employ, our core players have much more value and are greater than the the mere sum of there individual worth.  They have more value because of Luka - and Luka has more value because of them.  You can't just replace them with "better" players and hope for same results. Thybulle is a good example.  Is he a better defender than DFS?  The league would say so, since he is making All-D teams.  If you replaced DFS with Thybulle, are the Mavs a better team?  I don't think it is close.  DFS shooting nearly 40% from 3 the last two seasons is a HUGE part of our team concept and is a way that Luka is able to do what he does.  A reason Din has amazing driving lanes.  That their pnr game is so deadly.  It MATTERS who those players are and what they can do.  

As for me, I think our defense needs help - much more than our offense.  I would love to pick up an additional creator.  I think we need one.  Suggest some stuff.  Let's discuss it.  I see people discussing it all the time and making arguments for/against.  I just don't buy when someone comes in and says that it is all about the boys in blue.  I am not that invested on any of the players.  I root for the name on the front of the jersey - as do most people here.  I grow fond of players that I see giving it all for the team, but I don't have to let that cloud objectivity.  I think our defense needs help and want to see us CONTINUE to acquire and keep 2 way players, unless there is too much value to overlook a trade.  That is how teams do it too when 2 contenders trade.  Everyone would want most of the top players in the league - what are you going to prioritize.

100%  Good post.

[SleepingHero]

I think the Mavericks should stretch-waive Luka.

Ball-hog, misses more shots than he makes, always whining to the refs.

Also, his girlfriend is homely.

You forgot to call Luka fat.

[SleepingHero]

Guys, I don't think we can take in a SnT

We can. 

Just need to end the offseason being under that 156.9 apron. Mavs are currently right at it with roughly ~155 mil in salary. Dan has been throwing around his new favorite trade of turning THJ into Burks+trash to open up space to accommodate a SnT. I don't like that route mainly because I don't value Burks at all. 

Realistically Sexton is going to demand at least 16-17 a year. Mavs need to clear then about that much (I.E Bertans, THJ, or a combo of others) for nothing to open up a Sexton trade.

Difficult? Sure. But not impossible.

[Mavsfan12]

We can. 

Just need to end the offseason being under that 156.9 apron. Mavs are currently right at it with roughly ~155 mil in salary. Dan has been throwing around his new favorite trade of turning THJ into Burks+trash to open up space to accommodate a SnT. I don't like that route mainly because I don't value Burks at all. 

Realistically Sexton is going to demand at least 16-17 a year. Mavs need to clear then about that much (I.E Bertans, THJ, or a combo of others) for nothing to open up a Sexton trade.

Difficult? Sure. But not impossible.

Let's just say no, we can't.  You think the Mavs should trade away assets to trade THJ (even more for bertans) into air, then use that for the right to send assets to CLE for the right to sign Sexton for that contract?  Ugh.  that is a whole level of crap that makes me sick just thinking about.  No way that is even close to worth it.

Why not just pick up Bledsoe/Schroder for cheap?  Dragic situation looks like more of a fail if this was the backup option.  UGH!

[DanSchwartzgan]

We can. 

Just need to end the offseason being under that 156.9 apron. Mavs are currently right at it with roughly ~155 mil in salary. Dan has been throwing around his new favorite trade of turning THJ into Burks+trash to open up space to accommodate a SnT. I don't like that route mainly because I don't value Burks at all. 

Realistically Sexton is going to demand at least 16-17 a year. Mavs need to clear then about that much (I.E Bertans, THJ, or a combo of others) for nothing to open up a Sexton trade.

Difficult? Sure. But not impossible.

I think we are at about $165mm or about $7mm over the apron currently when you count McGee and Hardy.  The beauty of the THJ for Burks/Lee deal is it reduces salary down to just over $157mm.  From there is is much easier to create a deal where we send out more salary than we take back and end below the apron after the deal.

[Kammrath]

[SleepingHero]

Let's just say no, we can't.  You think the Mavs should trade away assets to trade THJ (even more for bertans) into air, then use that for the right to send assets to CLE for the right to sign Sexton for that contract?  Ugh.  that is a whole level of crap that makes me sick just thinking about.  No way that is even close to worth it.

Why not just pick up Bledsoe/Schroder for cheap?  Dragic situation looks like more of a fail if this was the backup option.  UGH!

I suppose it all depends on what else we're getting back. I do think Sexton as a player (and asset) is worth moving off THJ to grab Sexton. I suppose you don't value him? That's fine and well. He has his warts.

I think there's something to be said about just getting Schroeder. I'm not against that move especially since it doesn't require any complicated cap work, but that assumes Schroeder even wants to go anywhere on a minimum contract. Dirkfan mentioned earlier about how it's a bit odd that there aren't any suitors for Schroeder for anything above the minimum. Surely there has to be some BAE exception lurking out there for him to take? In which case is he even a viable option?

I think we could sell him on the idea that he'd be featured here and could play for his next contract, but it isn't like Schroeder hasn't had his opportunities for that. Bledsoe looks about done in this league in terms of playing meaningful basketball minutes. I would 100% pay a premium on someone else to avoid Bledsoe. 

I think we are at about $165mm or about $7mm over the apron currently when you count McGee and Hardy.  The beauty of the THJ for Burks/Lee deal is it reduces salary down to just over $157mm.  From there is is much easier to create a deal where we send out more salary than we take back and end below the apron after the deal.

Ah! You're right. I forgot to include McGee and Hardy. I see the value in the deal from a cap perspective, but something just doesn't sit right with me shipping off THJ for Burks who I don't think will be able to play at all next year given his foot surgery this summer. It's hard to argue against it if we're trying to clear space for a SnT because it does accomplish that. 

You know what would be a deal that would also solve our 2nd ball handler issues and allow us to clear some space? THJ to IND for TJ McConnell+ Brissett.

EDIT: Was thinking about different scenarios with the backbone of that trade I mentioned above and landed on a mild blockbuster of Powell+Bertans+draft picks for Turner+McConnell.

Trying tor read the tea leaves. IND has been trying to deal Turner for 8 years now. They're finally making a big offer sheet to a center and have to carve out room for him. Turner's trade value obviously isn't very high or else IND would have definitely moved on by now. I think Turner's injury history and impending FA status is making him unattractive to most teams. 

Most likely Carlisle is going to want "his" guys back in THJ+Powell and the deal still works with that. Perhaps the Mavs can even ask for Buddy Hield.

[Dundalis]

Sexton = Russell Westbrook starter kit

False. Sexton can shoot, and doesn't have a TS hovering around 50%. If Westbrook could actually shoot he wouldn't be spoken about in meme fashion like he is.

I think that is a key point and one that you are ignoring.  As we sit around here, acting like our thoughts on Mavs roster building matters, we ARE commenting on specific trades and whether or not we would do them.  Or if those are the type of players that we would target.  We have blown through countless names just this offseason.  It isn't so much that "we" are blinded by our own players as we have opinions on roster building and some players don't fit into that vision - for any number of reasons.  Cost to acquire, skillset, off court considerations...  they all come into play.  You are complaining about the PROCESS of debate on this board rather than discussing actual players and making cases for/against them.  There are going to be differences in opinion - that's kind of the point.

The second bold is an example where I STRONGLY disagree with you... I think that our defense is being held together at times by smoke and mirrors and relying WAY too heavily on the precious few that can execute it.  The guys you label as "role" players are holding our playoff lives in their hands.  We don't get to where we do without their skillsets.  Individually, they may not be "stars".  But in the team concept that the Mavs employ, our core players have much more value and are greater than the the mere sum of there individual worth.  They have more value because of Luka - and Luka has more value because of them.  You can't just replace them with "better" players and hope for same results. Thybulle is a good example.  Is he a better defender than DFS?  The league would say so, since he is making All-D teams.  If you replaced DFS with Thybulle, are the Mavs a better team?  I don't think it is close.  DFS shooting nearly 40% from 3 the last two seasons is a HUGE part of our team concept and is a way that Luka is able to do what he does.  A reason Din has amazing driving lanes.  That their pnr game is so deadly.  It MATTERS who those players are and what they can do.  

As for me, I think our defense needs help - much more than our offense.  I would love to pick up an additional creator.  I think we need one.  Suggest some stuff.  Let's discuss it.  I see people discussing it all the time and making arguments for/against.  I just don't buy when someone comes in and says that it is all about the boys in blue.  I am not that invested on any of the players.  I root for the name on the front of the jersey - as do most people here.  I grow fond of players that I see giving it all for the team, but I don't have to let that cloud objectivity.  I think our defense needs help and want to see us CONTINUE to acquire and keep 2 way players, unless there is too much value to overlook a trade.  That is how teams do it too when 2 contenders trade.  Everyone would want most of the top players in the league - what are you going to prioritize.

My responses have been directly responding to comments about how untouchable our role players are. That there are comments specifically about trade scenario's we have come up with is neither here nor there.

As for the second part, there are exceptions to every rule. But by and large, yes, you can replace existing players with 'better' players and very much expect to see better results. That's literally what happens in a game where only 5 players control your fortunes at any time. I get there are issues with fit. I didn't want Gobert here or any non shooting big, even though as soon as the season finished every Mavs fan and his dog was screaming for a paint defending big, pretty much like every year since Dirk was drafted with the exception of maybe when Dampier was first signed and when we had Tyson. I was opposed to that cacophony from the start. I'd take Harris for anyone not named Luka for example, certainly including Bullock or DFS. Any downgrade on defense (Harris is an above avg defender IMO) is more than made up by shot creation.

Our offense was middle of the pack last year. Our defense was top 10. Say you reversed that through trades. Top 10 offense, middle of the pack defense. Effectively our standing doesn't change. That obviously isn't apples for apples comparison, but all I'm highlighting is that this team has some serious weaknesses, and if you fill those weaknesses but weaken another area, that doesn't automatically translate to us being a worse team.

Bottom line is I was mostly responding directly to specific comments about the importance of role players in our team that I thought were over the top and not particularly objective. It's been absolutely rampant, not just here, but on reddit and every other Mavs forum around to a level I've not seen having been around Mavs forums for a good 20 years. It is not confined to just discussing specific trade scenario's, I literally responded directly to comments saying guys like Bullock and DFS are irreplaceable. That is a definitive statement that has nothing to do with specific trade scenarios.

[Dundalis]

Let's just say no, we can't.  You think the Mavs should trade away assets to trade THJ (even more for bertans) into air, then use that for the right to send assets to CLE for the right to sign Sexton for that contract?  Ugh.  that is a whole level of crap that makes me sick just thinking about.  No way that is even close to worth it.

Why not just pick up Bledsoe/Schroder for cheap?  Dragic situation looks like more of a fail if this was the backup option.  UGH!

I think he's better than Brunson. Whatever character or selfishness issues you want to accuse Sexton of are made up by him just being a more talented player. He's also only 23 years old, some of the comments in the media talking about him being undesirable because he's too selfish, you would think he's a 30 year old with no improvement left and hasn't only been in the league 3 and a bit years playing for one of the worst teams in the league. It would also be nice to actually attempt to acquire players that are somewhat on Luka's timeline, have improvement left and are not going to be pensioner age from an athlete standpoint in 2-3 years and will still have good trade value. I think if there's a legitimate route to acquire him, you go for it. It's a risk, but he has star upside to be one of the better scorers in the league at improving efficiency and is Luka's age, you don't get many chances to acquire that type of piece in our situation very often. Even if we don't want to keep him longer term, he should have good trade value in a year or two if he can be locked up at under 20.

[F Gump]

Whatever character or selfishness issues you want to accuse Sexton of are made up by him just being a more talented player. He's also only 23 years old, some of the comments in the media talking about him being undesirable because he's too selfish, you would think he's a 30 year old with no improvement left and hasn't only been in the league 3 and a bit years playing for one of the worst teams in the league. It would also be nice to actually attempt to acquire players that are somewhat on Luka's timeline, have improvement left and are not going to be pensioner age from an athlete standpoint in 2-3 years and will still have good trade value. I think if there's a legitimate route to acquire him, you go for it. It's a risk, but he has star upside to be one of the better scorers in the league at improving efficiency and is Luka's age, you don't get many chances to acquire that type of piece in our situation very often. Even if we don't want to keep him longer term, he should have good trade value in a year or two if he can be locked up at under 20.

"Whatever character or selfishness issues you want to accuse Sexton of are made up by him just being a more talented player.".... 

Or maybe he's just not worth all that much to a team worried about team?

There's plenty to NOT like.
1 He wasn’t voted to the rookie-sophomore game in either of his first two seasons --those are voted on by coaches around the league.
2 He and agent Rich Paul are seeking a deal that will start Sexton in the neighborhood of about $20 million annually. Meanwhile, 2 NBA execs pegged Sexton’s value at $10-12 million per season in a recent note in the Athletic, which is where Cleveland wants to sign him.
3 B-Ref's defensive rankings peg him as close to the worst defender on the Cavs every season.
4 He's a PG whose TOs are high and Asst's are anemic.
5 Opponents taunt Cavs players by saying during games, “you know he’s not going to pass you the ball" -- the players know what's what.

[KillerLeft]

I think he's better than Brunson.

Man, I don't mean any disrespect with this, and it's not just about you, either. But, I honestly had no idea there was so much skepticism about Brunson left in this community. The past few days have been eye opening for me. 

There's a little opinion involved in these things, I guess, but I'd take Brunson over Sexton alllllll day. Brunson is a winner.

[SleepingHero]

Brunson is a winner.

Not saying that he isn't buuuuuut he has his work cut out for him with the Knicks. 

JB is a good player. Great 3rd option on a contender. Not a guy I'd be eager to throw 26 mil to like the Knicks just did. If the argument is just looking at player v. player (and ignoring personality quirks), Sexton at 20 mil is probably a hair lower/even than Brunson at 26 mil.

[KillerLeft]

Not saying that he isn't buuuuuut he has his work cut out for him with the Knicks. 

Very true. The next chapter will be tough for him.

As I said many times this season, my days of underestimating the kid are over.

[dirkfansince1998]

But, I honestly had no idea there was so much skepticism about Brunson left in this community.

I already voiced my opinion on the topic and I don´t think it is a good look for the fanbase.