ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal?

[SleepingHero]

I followed that draft very closely and had one rule: Anyone but DSJ. 
It looked clear at the end who is the top 8, and that he was falling to us 

But OTOH, I wanted Monk. So it wasn't like I knew who is great player we can get

My top 5 for that draft was as follows:

1. Jayson Tatum
2. Bam Adebayo
3. DSJ
4. Lonzo
5. Lauri

Looking back I think the DSJ pick wasn't a bad one at all. Of course Mitchell and Bam were right there, but picking either that high was a stretch at the time. They went with the more highly rated prospect, and had DSJ really worked out he'd have had all-star potential.

Many others here were so spot on regarding Mitchell though. I never believed in them though. Bam was my pet pick and I was begging the Mavs to take him.

[Mavs2021]

I followed that draft very closely and had one rule: Anyone but DSJ. 
It looked clear at the end who is the top 8, and that he was falling to us 

But OTOH, I wanted Monk. So it wasn't like I knew who is great player we can get

To cut us some slack in the Monk camp, it was hard to know that he´d develop a serious drug habit. Now that he seems to have overcome it, he´s pretty much doing what we expected. High quality 3pt shooting with some play-making. I liked DSJ okay. Never believed in his shooting, but I saw pure PG vision and defensive potential. Bit what he did last season in Charlotte. His make or break was always finishing at the rim. Probably a bit easier in Charlotte with a faster pace and on a tanking team.

[KillerLeft]

Sort of interesting Dinwiddie  conversation.  At 13 minute mark they talk Luka.  At 19 minute mark they talk Luka and Kyrie

https://www.youtube.com/live/x0sbXjgLdkE?feature=share

Thanks for posting. Dinwiddie sees the roster the same way many of us do, right down to identifying “two Jerami Grant types” as the answer.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Thanks for posting. Dinwiddie sees the roster the same way many of us do, right down to identifying “two Jerami Grant types” as the answer.

Great conversation.  I don't know anything about the guy with the laptop, but really enjoyed what Arenas and Jennings brought to the conversation.  Spencer is just a really smart dude who cuts right to it.

He actually started with rim protection and then pointed out there needs to be two guys who can guard up and down the lineup.  Luka is the one on O and the four on D.  So, someone needs to be able to guard the best frontcourt guy so Luka can rest on someone else (Grant fits really well here).  Someone else needs to guard the best backcourt guy so Kyrie can rest on someone else (Grant might not be ideal on ones, so it might be better if this guy was a little smaller than Grant the player (vs. Grant the prototype).  Oh, and both of these guys need to be able to shoot.  I think we have one of those already in Green, which is why I'm not trading him for anything outside of a Top 15 guy.  The trick is how do you get rim protection AND a big wing who can defend and shoot with what we have to offer.

I thought the Ayton answer was telling (helps a ton on O, but no rim protection).  The same probably applies to THJ (helps a ton on O, but not enough perimeter D...plus Hardy does the same things with more ball handling).

Edit: When they got to the Lebron retirement talk, GA had Davis gone. Build around LeBron, Reaves and Rui.

[ItsGoTime]

I watched that podcast too. When Din said 2 Grants, I was taken back a bit thinking that name has been shut down here due to people not thinking his defense is as advertised. Regardless of the name though, 2 versatile “wings” is for sure the way to go. One of those guys might be at 10, although counting on #10 to come in and be that big an impact player right away is shaky ground. I don’t mind that approach, if the pick is a hit, but needs a season or two to get acclimated. One thing is for sure, whatever is done with #10, it absolutely has to be a hit for this to get turned around.

So, if 10 becomes 1 of those 2 guys you need, how do we get the other? I think one answer is either Brooks or Grant Williams. Both seem to be out on their respective teams (although now that Boston is playing Grant, they may have a change of heart, he’s looking good when he gets time). This is why I’ve been so high on Brooks for THJ ever since seeing that trade. Brooks is in the perfect spot for reclamation project. The Hollinger article put things into perspective for me with him. He’s a hard worker and always balancing on the razors edge of competitiveness which he’s gone to the 1 side too far the last 2 seasons. I think that has everything to do with where he’s at and the downward spiral Ja is taking that team in. Get him to a more stable environment and he goes back to teetering on that edge, probably.

I honestly would love to find a way to get both those guys on the roster with a good C as well. I think there may be a path to it, but it would probably take most of our current on contract depth to do it.

Is there a possibility of having an offseason where we get Allen, Brooks and Williams? Some of the rumors floating around about all their value sure makes it sound like it’s possible.

What if we were to trade down, but with future picks in mind, not current ones? Can we get 3 protected firsts and 4 seconds for 10 (last year the trade was for 11, I added the 4 seconds for the difference between 11 and 10) and go into the offseason using some of those as incentive to either trade (in Allen’s case) or SnT those players to us? 

Allen for Maxi, Bullock and a 1st
Brooks for THJ seems legit to me
Williams for Bertans and a first (most sketchy of the 3)

Of course we have to sell Brooks and Williams on us vs anyone else. Seeing that team would be a huge step in the right direction to convincing them. My thought is signing each of them in the $15-18M range to start, negotiations might have us closer to 18 if competition is steep. That doesn’t leave us with much if any wiggle room, I am assuming $40M starting salary for Kyrie (and this laid out plan) is enough to convince him to sign.

Ending up with:
Luka/Kyrie/Brooks/Williams/Allen
Hardy/Green/vet min/vet min/Powell

$130-136M starter salary is steep, but that is a legit team. It’s a contender if we can fill 1 of those backup vet min spots with a legit ring chaser.

[Branduil]

Man Luka is so gone if our answer is Dillon Brooks

[ItsGoTime]

Man Luka is so gone if our answer is Dillon Brooks

I think you’re gonna eat these words next year regardless of where Brooks goes.

[dirkfansince1998]

Just feels like Brooks peaked 2-3 years ago and has been living of a reputation that doesn´t match the current on court production. Looking at the numbers we have an above average defender. Inefficient scoring. Bad shooting. With more usage/touches than he probably should have.

[ItsGoTime]

Just feels like Brooks peaked 2-3 years ago and has been living of a reputation that doesn´t match the current on court production. Looking at the numbers we have an above average defender. Inefficient scoring. Bad shooting. With more usage/touches than he probably should have.

Man, not sure “above average defender” gives much credit for his current second all defensive team awarding. 

I admit it’s a strong hunch on my part, but I am pretty adamant that he is one of the top players in need of a change of scenery combined with going into next year having something to prove to the team that hung him out to dry (as well as all the people giving him flak recently). He’ll be hyper focused next year. The thing the next team needs to do is channel that focus into better productivity. He’s shown he can shoot well, he has decent handles and the confidence to use them. 

I also don’t understand what you mean by saying living off reputation? I think the 2 year slump has everything to do with what we’re seeing is Ja’s “leadership”. That’s not to say it’s all Ja’s fault, but it is to say break him away from that culture and it’ll be a different person IMO.

[dirkfansince1998]

Man, not sure “above average defender” gives much credit for his current second all defensive team awarding. 

I admit it’s a strong hunch on my part, but I am pretty adamant that he is one of the top players in need of a change of scenery combined with going into next year having something to prove to the team that hung him out to dry (as well as all the people giving him flak recently). He’ll be hyper focused next year. The thing the next team needs to do is channel that focus into better productivity. He’s shown he can shoot well, he has decent handles and the confidence to use them. 

I also don’t understand what you mean by saying living off reputation? I think the 2 year slump has everything to do with what we’re seeing is Ja’s “leadership”. That’s not to say it’s all Ja’s fault, but it is to say break him away from that culture and it’ll be a different person IMO.

Wasn´t willing to call him an elite defender after the last stretch of the season but admit that he would easily be the best wing defender on the current Mavs roster.

Reputation as a shooter for example. He basically had 1 1/2 seasons of slightly above average 3-point shooting on low volume. As soon as he increased the volume the percentages went downhill. For his career he is 34.2% from 3. Below average. Problem is that his overall offense is even worse. And that´s not just about the last two seasons. Cannot really get to the rim and takes a lot of midrange shots. Not a good idea for a player that isn´t a good shooter to begin with. Putting him close to the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency. 51.2 TS% for his career.

[BigDirk41]

I was 100% against Brooks when the season ended, but seeing our current situation, roster, and limited options, taking a chance on Brooks could pay off big if it works out. I wouldn't think he would be super expensive. He's annoying AF, but at least he would annoy the other teams. Luka can back up Brooks mouth so it might actually light a fire under Luka. He seems to like to trash talk. It gets him going.

[BoredAssistant]

Would also like a lockdown/aggressive defender at pg like Thybulle or Mitchell from Sac instead of FN. I don't care if he can shoot or not. I know Cuban doesn't give a shit and he has that right but I think it would help quell the criticisms if every time we played you know who he could barely dribble or get up a shot. Or just do it for me personally.

[ItsGoTime]

Wasn´t willing to call him an elite defender after the last stretch of the season but admit that he would easily be the best wing defender on the current Mavs roster.

Reputation as a shooter for example. He basically had 1 1/2 seasons of slightly above average 3-point shooting on low volume. As soon as he increased the volume the percentages went downhill. For his career he is 34.2% from 3. Below average. Problem is that his overall offense is even worse. And that´s not just about the last two seasons. Cannot really get to the rim and takes a lot of midrange shots. Not a good idea for a player that isn´t a good shooter to begin with. Putting him close to the bottom of the league in scoring efficiency. 51.2 TS% for his career.

His shooting numbers are close to Levert’s. I don’t mind saying he has warts on offense. So did THJ when he came here. I just think there’s enough there to see a hard worker put things together on that side. In our offense, he’d have some semblance of a Reggie Bullock role, but with the added ability to close out on the defender.

[DallasMaverick]

His shooting numbers are close to Levert’s. I don’t mind saying he has warts on offense. So did THJ when he came here. I just think there’s enough there to see a hard worker put things together on that side. In our offense, he’d have some semblance of a Reggie Bullock role, but with the added ability to close out on the defender.

There are a couple of things that scare me about him:

1. Based on comments he made near the end of the season, he truly believes he should play a much bigger role in the offense.  Unless that attitude changes, I see him as a malcontent who has the potential to seriously disrupt team chemistry.

2. Based on his warped self-view, I also doubt that a financial agreement can be reached that compensates him appropriately to his contributions. Perhaps the market will speak loudly, and he'll humble himself and accept reality.  Maybe a bit above vet min?

3. Based on Cuban's "one knucklehead" policy, we'd limit our ability to get another high-productivity-but-low-emotional-maturity player. Is this how we want to spend our allowance?

[dirkfansince1998]

His shooting numbers are close to Levert’s. I don’t mind saying he has warts on offense. So did THJ when he came here. I just think there’s enough there to see a hard worker put things together on that side. In our offense, he’d have some semblance of a Reggie Bullock role, but with the added ability to close out on the defender.

Don´t think the comparisation works. Both are still comfortably ahead of Brooks when it comes to key scoring efficiency numbers like TS% or PPP. Margin for Levert is smaller (~2% TS) but he is also a better playmaker. THJ is simply a way better shooter (with a similar chucker mentality). Even before he joined the Mavs he had 1 1/2 seasons with the Hawks that are levels above the best version of Brooks when it comes to shooting percentages.

Found an article that says it way better than I ever could. With a spot on prediction for the postseason.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2023/01/grizzli...tion-stats

There is a lot to like when it comes to his defense and hustle. But on offense he combines a "Kobe" mentality with Frank Nitilikina level shot making ability.
I am not completly out on the idea if he signs for the BAE and accepts a smaller role on offense. But that goes against everything Brooks stated in the last couple of month. He wants a bigger role and a big contract.

[Jakeospikez]

Great insight from Dinwiddie there. Good to have a former teammate's perspective on the defensive plan around Luka. I don't really see Brooks as a big need if the Mavs keep Green. Green covers the same positions that Brooks would, the wing that can cover an elite PG (i.e. Ja, Curry) for Kyrie. The glaring holes right now are the obvious big wing and rim protector in his lineup, so what everyone's been talking about is really already on point. You can use Dinwiddie's info to be a little more descriptive on the needs now though. The biggest need is a big wing that can guard 2-4, or 2-5? plus elite 4's (i.e. Giannis) so that Luka doesn't have to aka DFS' replacement. Walker/Hendricks almost certainly take that spot if they're there at #10. Leonard Miller should be a solid option with a small trade back. Otherwise gotta find the right vet 4 trade target that can handle a Giannis level defensive assignment. I do wonder what their thoughts on Wood at PF are. He's been pretty solid at 1 on 1 defense vs non 5's especially on the perimeter vs quick guards, but maybe he just has too low bbiq to handle PF, or just wants too much money or something.

[Chicagojk]

Sure…go to two Lakers playoffs games knowing what that will bring but stop paying attention to the media members.

https://twitter.com/clutchpointsapp/stat...72948?s=61&t=-aAylloVlVRI2-DRvoajoA

[Mavs2021]

Sure…go to two Lakers playoffs games knowing what that will bring but stop paying attention to the media members. 

https://twitter.com/clutchpointsapp/stat...72948?s=61&t=-aAylloVlVRI2-DRvoajoA

Nah. This time it will be different.

[SleepingHero]

Sure…go to two Lakers playoffs games knowing what that will bring but stop paying attention to the media members. 

https://twitter.com/clutchpointsapp/stat...72948?s=61&t=-aAylloVlVRI2-DRvoajoA

Here's the Kyrie BS coming.

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I read this as partly as "Give me a max or you'll get more of this." and also "I actually don't have a clue what I want, because I'm Kyrie Irving and my wants change based on the day"

[F Gump]

I read this as Kyrie trying to feed interest in any and all bidders for his services, rather than having any particular desire to leave, or to play in LA. All free agents do it, if they can, when there are questions about value and financial worth. And Kyrie does have those questions about him for a variety of reasons.