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[BigDirk41]

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other yet. I do not think Kidd is an "elite" coach, but I think there's a lot more to it in Dallas with the "Nico, Luka, and Kyrie friendship." I think having a coach due to relationships can get dicey, but that's just me. The team is playing well, but it's also a incredibly talented team with 2 of the best players in the world on the team and one that will most likely retire being anywhere from 1-3 on the GOAT list. I'm not sure that what Kidd has done, is really exceeding expectations. He's really just meeting the lowest of expectations so far. If they beat OKC and do well in the conference finals, this was probably a good move, but I wouldn't reward a coach for making it to the second round. This could have waited imo.

[omahen]

He seems to never publicly embarrass a player.  

I don't really have a strong opinion. Being a coach is not just X and O but even more about psychology. While he doesn't look as a strongest coach in the X and O category, he seems very good with getting players to buy in. A couple of remarks though based on the text I left.

I don't think that is really true. On more then one occasion he publicly blamed the players, but I don't remember a single time where he showed accountability and said that whatever he was trying to do was not working. Or at least acknowledge that is also his job to get players to do what needs to be done. RC for example, publicly always took the blame for the loss. I am certain it was totally different behind closed doors. Different players react differently to public criticism. We have plenty of examples around the league where players didn't respond well to such things. Perhaps Kidd is sure Mavs players will react positively and so far we can't say they didn't. 

My personal impression about this is not positive. Of course I may be wrong, I am just guessing based on what I see in the media. He seems to me like a guy that is very unsure. A guy that quickly points fingers to others but never to himself. A guy that doesn't want to surround himself by strong assistants, because they could endager him. Based on this I don't have confidence he can be an elite leader.

[SleepingHero]

@517to214
I was today years old when I found out Jason Kidd already has got out of the 1st round the same amount of times as Rick Carlisle did during his Mavs tenure.


Not saying I agree with this tweet but it is pretty interesting. To be fair to Rick, his first 3 years he got out of the 1st round twice and won a chip as well. Wasn't until plan powder and mediocre money ball rosters did he continually get stonewalled in the playoffs. Although Luka fan accounts have rightly pointed out he stagnated with Luka rosters and couldn't get it done.

[HoosierDaddyKidd]

I don't really have a strong opinion. Being a coach is not just X and O but even more about psychology. While he doesn't look as a strongest coach in the X and O category, he seems very good with getting players to buy in. A couple of remarks though based on the text I left.

I don't think that is really true. On more then one occasion he publicly blamed the players, but I don't remember a single time where he showed accountability and said that whatever he was trying to do was not working. Or at least acknowledge that is also his job to get players to do what needs to be done. RC for example, publicly always took the blame for the loss. I am certain it was totally different behind closed doors. Different players react differently to public criticism. We have plenty of examples around the league where players didn't respond well to such things. Perhaps Kidd is sure Mavs players will react positively and so far we can't say they didn't. 

My personal impression about this is not positive. Of course I may be wrong, I am just guessing based on what I see in the media. He seems to me like a guy that is very unsure. A guy that quickly points fingers to others but never to himself. A guy that doesn't want to surround himself by strong assistants, because they could endager him. Based on this I don't have confidence he can be an elite leader.

Me personally, I would have waited.  I believe they are favored to win the series vs OKC. But what happens if they lose it?  Will all the euphoria of having a good season up to that point, carry over into next year?  Things happen from season to season. Key injuries. Losing players to FAgency. Other teams getting better. Some players have career years, then fall off the next one.  The Mavs have been rolling, they dispatched they're arch nemesis. But we all know they can come up with a "stinker" game every now and then.  We'll just have to see.

[Chicagojk]

I don't really have a strong opinion. Being a coach is not just X and O but even more about psychology. While he doesn't look as a strongest coach in the X and O category, he seems very good with getting players to buy in. A couple of remarks though based on the text I left.

I don't think that is really true. On more then one occasion he publicly blamed the players, but I don't remember a single time where he showed accountability and said that whatever he was trying to do was not working. Or at least acknowledge that is also his job to get players to do what needs to be done. RC for example, publicly always took the blame for the loss. I am certain it was totally different behind closed doors. Different players react differently to public criticism. We have plenty of examples around the league where players didn't respond well to such things. Perhaps Kidd is sure Mavs players will react positively and so far we can't say they didn't. 

My personal impression about this is not positive. Of course I may be wrong, I am just guessing based on what I see in the media. He seems to me like a guy that is very unsure. A guy that quickly points fingers to others but never to himself. A guy that doesn't want to surround himself by strong assistants, because they could endager him. Based on this I don't have confidence he can be an elite leader.

That is a good point about taking blame.  Yeah, he isn't very good at doing that.   I just don't feel like it bothers the players much.    But you are right.

I was talking more about the game stuff.   I was watching Rick C (who I really like) and he had a couple of instances that he went right at players very publicly in the first round.   I think that is needed at times, but can also see how that could wear on players over time.  

As great as Rick is/was, he did pretty much bench Brunson and sideline KP to play Boban 30 minutes in a game 7.  I think Kidd would have been much more likely to ride players like Brunson.   On the other end, I don't think Kidd would have relied on JJB in a championship series like Carlisle did.  Not saying either way is better, but just different.

[surfpuckmd]

I don't really have a strong opinion. Being a coach is not just X and O but even more about psychology. While he doesn't look as a strongest coach in the X and O category, he seems very good with getting players to buy in. A couple of remarks though based on the text I left.

I don't think that is really true. On more then one occasion he publicly blamed the players, but I don't remember a single time where he showed accountability and said that whatever he was trying to do was not working. Or at least acknowledge that is also his job to get players to do what needs to be done. RC for example, publicly always took the blame for the loss. I am certain it was totally different behind closed doors. Different players react differently to public criticism. We have plenty of examples around the league where players didn't respond well to such things. Perhaps Kidd is sure Mavs players will react positively and so far we can't say they didn't. 

My personal impression about this is not positive. Of course I may be wrong, I am just guessing based on what I see in the media. He seems to me like a guy that is very unsure. A guy that quickly points fingers to others but never to himself. A guy that doesn't want to surround himself by strong assistants, because they could endager him. Based on this I don't have confidence he can be an elite leader.

This.

Kidd informing the media that he was told to intentionally lose games at the end of last season is proof of his personality disorder.

I wouldn't be surprised if he had some incriminating information about Cuban or Nico regarding such things.  I wouldn't be surprised if he immediately released it to the media if he was ever terminated. 

I would have preferred to wait until after the Thunder series before extending him.  There is a lot of confidence here that we'll beat the Thunder but I think the odds are close to 50/50.  If Luka plays hurt, our odds go down a lot.  

It's conceivable that the Thunder beat us convincingly and if that were to happen, we would immediately regret that extension.

[DallasMaverick]

Me personally, I would have waited.  I believe they are favored to win the series vs OKC. But what happens if they lose it?  Will all the euphoria of having a good season up to that point, carry over into next year?  Things happen from season to season. Key injuries. Losing players to FAgency. Other teams getting better. Some players have career years, then fall off the next one.  The Mavs have been rolling, they dispatched they're arch nemesis. But we all know they can come up with a "stinker" game every now and then.  We'll just have to see.

It seems foolish to knee-jerk about a coaches’ worthiness or unworthiness based on a single game, a single series. It sure feels like that’s what happened with Darvin Ham and Adrian Griffin this season.

Now, we fans base our perceptions on massively incomplete data, as well. A coaches’ demeanor on the sideline. Rumors about how he treated a specific player. A not-very-well-thought-out comment at a press conference. And, if our team is losing, we’re critical of anything we’ve ever heard about them.

But most of the time, we really lack the necessary information to fully evaluate a coach’s performance. Did he really get the most out of his team’s potential? Did he put his players in the best position to win? Really hard to know.

The fact that the team gave him an extension says that he’s doing at least an adequate job. Historically, Cuban has favored continuity. 

It’s easy to get disillusioned with someone, and look for the next shiny thing that we hope can improve us. But the cost of making a change can be really high, also.

Isn’t Doc Rivers a much more experienced, much better coach than Adrian Griffin?

[mvossman]

I'm still not a big fan of Kidd, but it doesn't matter. In the NBA, X's and O's come second to keeping your stars happy. For whatever reason, the players love him. I can live with ugly offensive basketball if he can keep the defense playing at this level.

[surfpuckmd]

It seems foolish to knee-jerk about a coaches’ worthiness or unworthiness based on a single game, a single series. It sure feels like that’s what happened with Darvin Ham and Adrian Griffin this season.

Now, we fans base our perceptions on massively incomplete data, as well. A coaches’ demeanor on the sideline. Rumors about how he treated a specific player. A not-very-well-thought-out comment at a press conference. And, if our team is losing, we’re critical of anything we’ve ever heard about them.

But most of the time, we really lack the necessary information to fully evaluate a coach’s performance. Did he really get the most out of his team’s potential? Did he put his players in the best position to win? Really hard to know.

The fact that the team gave him an extension says that he’s doing at least an adequate job. Historically, Cuban has favored continuity. 

It’s easy to get disillusioned with someone, and look for the next shiny thing that we hope can improve us. But the cost of making a change can be really high, also.

Isn’t Doc Rivers a much more experienced, much better coach than Adrian Griffin?

Doc Rivers is a much better coach than Adrian Griffin.  Griffin had no idea what to do with that team.  

The Bucks lost in the first round because their 2 superstars were hurt.  

Doc Rivers may not be supercreative like Spoelstra or Daigneault but he is much better than Adrian Griffin (or Jason Kidd).

Some of your post is valid but we can all see that Jason Kidd is the least interactive head coach during games in the NBA.  It's not a great occupation for an insecure introvert.  As Omahen discusses, he has a history of taking no responsibility personally with the media.  

Some of the players seem to like him so that is worth something.  He's figured out some things defensively and I'm impressed with that.  

We could do a lot better than Jason Kidd though.

[omahen]

It seems foolish to knee-jerk about a coaches’ worthiness or unworthiness based on a single game, a single series. It sure feels like that’s what happened with Darvin Ham and Adrian Griffin this season.

Now, we fans base our perceptions on massively incomplete data, as well. A coaches’ demeanor on the sideline. Rumors about how he treated a specific player. A not-very-well-thought-out comment at a press conference. And, if our team is losing, we’re critical of anything we’ve ever heard about them.

But most of the time, we really lack the necessary information to fully evaluate a coach’s performance. Did he really get the most out of his team’s potential? Did he put his players in the best position to win? Really hard to know.

The fact that the team gave him an extension says that he’s doing at least an adequate job. Historically, Cuban has favored continuity. 

It’s easy to get disillusioned with someone, and look for the next shiny thing that we hope can improve us. But the cost of making a change can be really high, also.

Isn’t Doc Rivers a much more experienced, much better coach than Adrian Griffin?

Based on your very own argument. You claim it is foolish to make a knee-jerk reaction after a single game or series. You continue with a bunch of questions related to decisions based on incomplete information. But this is basically the whole point people (me included) raised. Why now and why not when the season is over and when you have a more complete information. 

Wouldn't it feel equally foolish to make a positive reaction after a single series? 

I also think your Rivers comparison is way off. Griffin obviously lost the lockerroom. And while Rivers didn't have a great end of regular season, you can't realy blame him for the first round exit due to all the injuries they had.

[dirkfansince1998]

@517to214
I was today years old when I found out Jason Kidd already has got out of the 1st round the same amount of times as Rick Carlisle did during his Mavs tenure.


Not saying I agree with this tweet but it is pretty interesting. To be fair to Rick, his first 3 years he got out of the 1st round twice and won a chip as well. Wasn't until plan powder and mediocre money ball rosters did he continually get stonewalled in the playoffs. Although Luka fan accounts have rightly pointed out he stagnated with Luka rosters and couldn't get it done.

I think a number of posters have summed it up pretty good. Kidd has closer ties to the current generation of players and it was easier to land or resign guys like Kyrie with him in Dallas. RC on the other hand gets more out of the roster that he has and can do more with mediocre talent. He never got the opportunity to coach a stacked team in a big market and every time he had a good/great team (early 00s Pistons and Pacers, 09-11 Mavs) he delivered.
Also shouldn't forget that in the last three years he build a team from scratch that is also in the second round of the playoffs. With a roster that clearly isn't as talented as the current Mavs.

[dirkfansince1998]

In general I think coaches simply aren't in the position to make as big of an impact as they could because the league is player driven. When in doubt star players will get their will. Meaning that coaches have to make concessions if they want to keep their jobs. That's why Doc Rivers still has a job and why many better X's and O's guys from europe/college teams never get an opportunity. Teams are picking out of small pool of candidates. Aren't willing to try something new. Aren't willing to empower new coaches. Aren't willing to give new coaches time and assets to make changes.

[DallasMaverick]

Based on your very own argument. You claim it is foolish to make a knee-jerk reaction after a single game or series. You continue with a bunch of questions related to decisions based on incomplete information. But this is basically the whole point people (me included) raised. Why now and why not when the season is over and when you have a more complete information. 

Wouldn't it feel equally foolish to make a positive reaction after a single series? 

I also think your Rivers comparison is way off. Griffin obviously lost the lockerroom. And while Rivers didn't have a great end of regular season, you can't realy blame him for the first round exit due to all the injuries they had.

I guess my primary objection is that we fans rarely, if ever, have complete information.  Certainly far less information than people inside the organization. But we make inordinately strong conclusions based on data that's sketchy, at best. 

More time = more data, for sure.  So yes, to extol a coach's greatness after a single win or series is definitely akin to blasting him over a loss. I tend to do it a fair amount on this board, mostly to torque the Negative Nancies who are so quick to blame the coach for a loss.  

How do we know that Adrian Griffin "lost" the locker room? A rumor that got printed somewhere?  How do we know it wasn't one specific player, like Giannis, that went to the GM and said "He's got to go"?  How do we know that management didn't discover his drug abuse, and fired him?  How do we know he wasn't sleeping with the owners' daughter?

And why can't we hold Doc Rivers responsible for their horrible record after he took over?  The Dallas fan base certainly would have been up in arms if Kidd had performed at that level, during that period of time.  Or lost in the first round. We're fickle and knee-jerk like that.

I'm certainly not making a judgment on Doc Rivers. He seems like a guy with proven character, who treats people fairly, and has had a measure of success over an extended period of time. Was the failure of his team due to his decisions?  I simply can't answer that, since I don't have full information.  Perhaps it was just the ripple effect from making a mid-season change, which is almost always disruptive.

[Smitty]

I'm not sure that what Kidd has done, is really exceeding expectations. He's really just meeting the lowest of expectations so far. If they beat OKC and do well in the conference finals, this was probably a good move, but I wouldn't reward a coach for making it to the second round.

2 years ago he made it to the WCF with Powell as the starting Center and Bertans and Franky Smokes as the 7th and 8th guy in the rotation.

This year, one of the most injured teams in the league, won 50 games and beat Luka's nemesis.

In his 3 years as head coach he's made it out of the first round as many times as Rick did, during his tenure as the Mavs head coach.

[Scott41theMavs]

My second favorite sports team is the Nebraska Cornhuskers football team. We're paying something like four different coaches right now due to how hirings and firings work in college football and this state.

I'm far less worried about the deep-pockets pro sports Mavs ending up having to pay multiple coaches if Kidd poops the bed again next year. The comment above about him regrouping the team ***very*** effectively after the Indy and Philly losses was on point. He deserves some credit this year. I also agree that beating the Kawhi-less Clipps is not an accomplishment (I would say it deserves about as much credit as getting out of bed in the morning). The two losses were due 100% to not having the team ready at all, especially the Game 4 debacle. However, the four wins did have something to do with decent coaching and rotations.

Come to think of it, since the trade deadline, the only rotations issue has been way too much THJ, but there was still substantial progress toward rectifying that (it just wasn't fast enough). I think Kidd realizes now that, when THJ is healthy, the leash needs to be really short for both ends of the court. THJ's marching orders need to be 1) you will not kill our defense, 2) you will not kill our offensive flow, and 3) you will not be cold on the shots you do take. If he isn't a plus, he sits. Like I say, I'll bet Kidd gets that and that I don't have too much to fuss about with that in the second round. In any event, I can't even remember a time in the Carlisle and Kidd eras where rotations haven't been a ***major*** bang-head issue, aside from the past two months or so. Kidd gets a ton of credit for that from me.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

@517to214
I was today years old when I found out Jason Kidd already has got out of the 1st round the same amount of times as Rick Carlisle did during his Mavs tenure.


Not saying I agree with this tweet but it is pretty interesting. To be fair to Rick, his first 3 years he got out of the 1st round twice and won a chip as well. Wasn't until plan powder and mediocre money ball rosters did he continually get stonewalled in the playoffs. Although Luka fan accounts have rightly pointed out he stagnated with Luka rosters and couldn't get it done.

Please don’t ever compare those two again. 

thanks, 
management

[HoosierDaddyKid]

It seems foolish to knee-jerk about a coaches’ worthiness or unworthiness based on a single game, a single series. It sure feels like that’s what happened with Darvin Ham and Adrian Griffin this season.

Now, we fans base our perceptions on massively incomplete data, as well. A coaches’ demeanor on the sideline. Rumors about how he treated a specific player. A not-very-well-thought-out comment at a press conference. And, if our team is losing, we’re critical of anything we’ve ever heard about them.

But most of the time, we really lack the necessary information to fully evaluate a coach’s performance. Did he really get the most out of his team’s potential? Did he put his players in the best position to win? Really hard to know.

The fact that the team gave him an extension says that he’s doing at least an adequate job. Historically, Cuban has favored continuity. 

It’s easy to get disillusioned with someone, and look for the next shiny thing that we hope can improve us. But the cost of making a change can be really high, also.

Isn’t Doc Rivers a much more experienced, much better coach than Adrian Griffin?

Where's the knee jerk ? Not saying he's a bad coach. I'm just saying I would have waited, and I'm standing on that. Kidd still has much to prove as far as I'm concerned. He got the team to the WCF a few years ago, but I get leery sometimes of his coaching decisions. Maybe they extended him to keep the Lakers from inquiring about him. I don't know. And Rivers coaching hasn't been relevant since 08 with Boston. Rivers is the king of blown 3-1 leads. He hasn't got it done at LAC, and Philly.

[mvossman]

Me personally, I would have waited.  I believe they are favored to win the series vs OKC. But what happens if they lose it?  Will all the euphoria of having a good season up to that point, carry over into next year?  Things happen from season to season. Key injuries. Losing players to FAgency. Other teams getting better. Some players have career years, then fall off the next one.  The Mavs have been rolling, they dispatched they're arch nemesis. But we all know they can come up with a "stinker" game every now and then.  We'll just have to see.

It doesn't matter if they lose to OKC.  The players love him and the FO loves him.  As much as folks on this board (including me) get frustrated with him, there is no hint of that frustration with the Mavs.  This extension was inevitable.  His name got brought up with the Lakers so they pulled the trigger early to avoid a distraction.  Besides, if things really go sideways its not like they can't can him anyways.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

It doesn't matter if they lose to OKC.  The players love him and the FO loves him.  As much as folks on this board (including me) get frustrated with him, there is no hint of that frustration with the Mavs.  This extension was inevitable.  His name got brought up with the Lakers so they pulled the trigger early to avoid a distraction.  Besides, if things really go sideways its not like they can't can him anyways.

That's your opinion. You're entitled to it.

[mvossman]

That's your opinion. You're entitled to it.

Thats a strange response.  To be clear, its not my opinion that they should have extended him, just that they were going to regardless of what happens in OKC.  Do you really think there is any chance at this point that they would want to fire Kid by the end of the season?  I'm not asking if you think they should, only if you think there is any chance given their current mindset that they would consider letting Kidd go and that this extension would have any impact on that decision.