AROUND the NBA: MIN Sweeps PHX!

[The Jom]

So let me understand what you're saying The Jom, you think the Joker is playing with a clear advantage over other MVP candidates because of how good his team is and where they play? And even though you wouldn't vote for him to win his 3rd MVP,  he's the odds on favorite inspite of Luka's and SGA's remarkable seasons.

Not even close. Makes me think my post must’ve been horribly written.

Joker has a huge advantage in the regular season due to there being so few real centers in the league. That advantage is considerably smaller in the playoffs because he’s playing the better teams, most of whom have some kind of quality defensive answer to the big-center problem. 

Joker’s teammates definitely are good, and the altitude advantage seems larger in the playoffs when rotations shrink, especially if the team at altitude has home-court advantage. So it’s telling, I think, that his teams generally haven’t outperformed their playoff seeding. (At least that’s my recollection.)

He is reportedly the favorite this year. I have no basis for questioning that. I don’t think he’s ever been the best player in the league. Embiid either. Neither do I think either of them has had the best year, although I’m not really sure what that means. 

To sum it up, if we time-transported an all-time great center into the 2024 season, say Olajuwon (a one-time MVP), I would expect said center to have vastly better numbers than Joker and dominate their matchups head to head. 

But go ahead. Make him a three-time MVP. It’s not gonna hurt my feelings.

[dirkfansince1998]

Not even close. Makes me think my post must’ve been horribly written.

Joker has a huge advantage in the regular season due to there being so few real centers in the league. That advantage is considerably smaller in the playoffs because he’s playing the better teams, most of whom have some kind of quality defensive answer to the big-center problem. 

Joker’s teammates definitely are good, and the altitude advantage seems larger in the playoffs when rotations shrink, especially if the team at altitude has home-court advantage. So it’s telling, I think, that his teams generally haven’t outperformed their playoff seeding. (At least that’s my recollection.)

He is reportedly the favorite this year. I have no basis for questioning that. I don’t think he’s ever been the best player in the league. Embiid either. Neither do I think either of them has had the best year, although I’m not really sure what that means. 

To sum it up, if we time-transported an all-time great center into the 2024 season, say Olajuwon (a one-time MVP), I would expect said center to have vastly better numbers than Joker and dominate their matchups head to head. 

But go ahead. Make him a three-time MVP. It’s not gonna hurt my feelings.

Center position has more top tier talent and depth than at any point in the 00s and 10s right now. And the mystical 90s had Olajuwon and Shaq as the only bigs that have a case over Jokic.
Not sure what you mean about "smaller advantage" in the playoffs. If we are just looking at Jokic he is even better in the playoffs but basketball is a team sport. If we are making excuses for other players I see no reason why Jokic should have won without Murray or before they traded for Gordon. LBJ couldn't do it. Jordan couldn't do it. Neither could any of the "dominant" 90s bigs. Shaq needed Kobe. Olajuwon needed Drexler and Jordan's first retirement.
Also not sure why Jokic being a center in the modern NBA is a reason to downplay his achievements. If anything it makes it even more impressive because perimeter players have dominated the last decade. We rarely see centers that can carry their team as the best player. Takes an incredible talent to overcome rules that favor perimeter players and limit the efficiency of post players.

We can search for reasons why Jokic's unique case makes all the metrics that we usually use to compare players invalid (would love to hear the case) or we can try to understand why his unique skillset is translating to all time great impact.

[The Jom]

If you don’t see how the absence of elite centers affects his numbers, I guess there isn’t any point in discussing it.

[dirkfansince1998]

If you don’t see how the absence of elite centers affects his numbers, I guess there isn’t any point in discussing it.

Please make your case. Apparently you have a different opinion. Help me understand instead of just acting like it is a given or not worth your time.

I think the modern game is favoring perimeter players. I don't think the level of bigs in the 90s or 00s was any better than it is today. Just different. Less post ups. More pick and roll. More outside shooting. Defensive concepts today are more team focused. All of that changed the role of the center position.
On average we get less shot creation  from the center position. And it's not about a lack of big bodies that can hit a hook shot. Just about other requirements that the Boban's or Kanter's of the world aren't offering.
Jokic stands out because he is one of maybe 2-3 guys that can carry a team like that. I don't doubt that Olajuwon or Shaq could do the same. But the average center of the past is a big rebounding body with mediocre mobility. The post defenders and rebounders of the 90s couldn't stay on the floor in the modern NBA and a player like Jokic would  do whatever he wants against them. There was less depth. But slightly better top tier talent. The NBA has moved past the point where being 7ft is enough to play in the league.

Adjusted for pace I don't see how Jokic's number would change in matchups with bigs from different eras. He is an elite post scorer (that's where the modern era is really limiting him, no foul calls for guys with the back to the basket). He has an elite midrange game. He has 3-point range. He is the best passing big of all time.
It would be interesting to see him in a league where teams aren't as willing to double. And he cannot make his usual reads. Basically just him going 1v1. Based on his performances in the playoffs he is going to score 30+ on 65% TS in those scenarios. Unless all elite bigs from the past are way better defenders than Adebayo or Gobert.

[mvossman]

He is reportedly the favorite this year. I have no basis for questioning that. I don’t think he’s ever been the best player in the league. Embiid either. Neither do I think either of them has had the best year, although I’m not really sure what that means. 

This is an interesting take.  Who do you think has been the best player in the NBA the last couple of years?

[Branduil]

With the Nuggets' upset loss to the Spurs it's now in our best interest to lose to OKC in the last game.

[Mavs2021]

With the Nuggets' upset loss to the Spurs it's now in our best interest to lose to OKC in the last game.

Nuggets didn´t want anything to do with the Warriros/Lakers in round one and the Clippers/Mavs in round two.

[The Jom]

Nuggets didn´t want anything to do with the Warriros/Lakers in round one and the Clippers/Mavs in round two.

That’s possible. Looks to me from the play by play that they had the game in hand and then Devonte Graham said not so fast my friends.

[The Jom]

This is an interesting take.  Who do you think has been the best player in the NBA the last couple of years?

The usuals minus Embiid and Jokic. Giannis, KD, LeBron, Steph, Luka, Dame, Devin, Kawhi when he tries. I’d put Luka and Steph at the top if they played defense. Maybe Luka is doing that now.

[Mavs03]

Nuggets didn´t want anything to do with the Warriros/Lakers in round one and the Clippers/Mavs in round two.

Really?  Jokic played nearly 40 minutes today.  The rest of their starters played around 30 minutes.  They had an 18 point lead at halftime.  To me, it seems they choked the game away

[RGP1981]

Looks like Jokic and Luka have been on the phone with each other!

I'm glad that the two of them are now on a path of only meeting in the WCF. It's the best thing for both players and both teams.

There are some intriguing possible match ups in the East 1st round too... Celtics vs Pacers/Heat, Bucks vs Pacers/Heat, Knicks vs 76ers... I'll be rooting for the Pacers, Heat and Knicks in those.

[RGP1981]

With the Nuggets' upset loss to the Spurs it's now in our best interest to lose to OKC in the last game.

The Mavs are locked into 5th even if they lose and if the Pels win their last game, right? 

Head-2-Head and Division Record will be the same, but Mavs win the tiebreaker due to Conference Record?

If yes, agreed!

[F Gump]

The Mavs are locked into 5th even if they lose and if the Pels win their last game, right? 

Head-2-Head and Division Record will be the same, but Mavs win the tiebreaker due to Conference Record?

If yes, agreed!

Mavs have clinched better Div record.

[RGP1981]

Mavs have clinched better Div record.

Oops, you're right. 5 losses vs 7 losses. Thanks!

[The Jom]

Please make your case. Apparently you have a different opinion. Help me understand instead of just acting like it is a given or not worth your time.

I think the modern game is favoring perimeter players. I don't think the level of bigs in the 90s or 00s was any better than it is today. Just different. Less post ups. More pick and roll. More outside shooting. Defensive concepts today are more team focused. All of that changed the role of the center position.
On average we get less shot creation  from the center position. And it's not about a lack of big bodies that can hit a hook shot. Just about other requirements that the Boban's or Kanter's of the world aren't offering.
Jokic stands out because he is one of maybe 2-3 guys that can carry a team like that. I don't doubt that Olajuwon or Shaq could do the same. But the average center of the past is a big rebounding body with mediocre mobility. The post defenders and rebounders of the 90s couldn't stay on the floor in the modern NBA and a player like Jokic would  do whatever he wants against them. There was less depth. But slightly better top tier talent. The NBA has moved past the point where being 7ft is enough to play in the league.

Adjusted for pace I don't see how Jokic's number would change in matchups with bigs from different eras. He is an elite post scorer (that's where the modern era is really limiting him, no foul calls for guys with the back to the basket). He has an elite midrange game. He has 3-point range. He is the best passing big of all time.
It would be interesting to see him in a league where teams aren't as willing to double. And he cannot make his usual reads. Basically just him going 1v1. Based on his performances in the playoffs he is going to score 30+ on 65% TS in those scenarios. Unless all elite bigs from the past are way better defenders than Adebayo or Gobert.

Not trying to be an ass. I really don’t know what to say. Jokic doesn’t have to play against guys his size hardly ever, unlike in previous eras. How is that hard to understand?

When he plays AD and performs well, I’m impressed, though AD isn’t really quite big enough. I’m a little impressed when he embarrasses Gobert. On the other hand, who doesn’t. Against Embiid this year, he went for 25 and 19, 11 of em offensive boards. But that was only one game. And in it, he gave up 41/7/10 to Embiid on the way to the loss. So how impressed am I supposed to be? 

Let me turn the question around on you. How well do you think Jokic would do against prime Mutumbo, who was never even the best center in the league? My guess, it would be a great contest. How well did Shaq (a three-time MVP) do by that measure? Hint: he dominated https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_b..._oneal.htm.

[Knutsen]

Great developments in the standings for us. Nothing changed for our first round match-up of course, but we‘d probably either face a young and physically weaker team with OKC in the second round or have home court advantage against one of the Warriors, Kings or Lakers who manage to upset them.

Denver has to go through the Suns or Pelicans or Lakers in the first round and then through the Timberwolves, possibly with the Timberwolves having homecourt advantage. As long as the Timberwolves aren’t upset themselves in the first round, but then Denver would face a second team of those first three mentioned, which also wouldn’t be a cake walk.

So all in all the road to the Western Conference playoffs got more doable for us (and for the Clippers), and the chances of not having to beat the defending champs on their homecourt at all increased as well. The stars are aligning, my friends!

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Nuggets didn´t want anything to do with the Warriros/Lakers in round one and the Clippers/Mavs in round two.

Seriously, I wouldn't read too much into that. I don't think it really matters to them. They're still the champs until proven otherwise.

[Dahlsim]

Brunson is amazing. Knicks are up big. He's trying to become the 1st Knicks player to score 40 pts in 3 str8 games since Carmelo Anthony. He has 39 pts but he may be done for the night, he's on the bench early in the 4th. Never in my wildest dreams did I expect him to be this good. Teams are double teaming him now to slow him down. He's barely 6 ft tall.  Awesome.

JB, Crazy good.  Not sure he could have ever developed his potential to this level behind Luka vs being the main man in NY. 
His elevated game with Julius Randle out just accentuates the point.

[Dahlsim]

Not trying to be an ass. I really don’t know what to say. Jokic doesn’t have to play against guys his size hardly ever, unlike in previous eras. 

To really compare talent for talent would also require projecting players into the same era compensating for the massive differences in each era.   
Are you projecting for example guys like Russell, Wilt, Kareem forward into this era or projecting someone like Jokic back into their era? 
The chosen era of course means entirely different lifestyle, physical training, playstyle and coaching emphasis not to mention rulesets and officiating styles.  

Maybe less so when you're talking next era guys like Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson but even then the new 3-ball pace & space era changes things drastically if you project the Joker back vs. projecting them forward.  I can't imagine for example that the Dream and Robinson wouldn't have developed a 3 point game.  Russell and Wilt were elite track athletes. Wilt was an all around track & field star but the NBA era and training called for centers to plant in the paint much more than sprint the floor. 
Wilt ran the 40 yard dash in 4.6, barefoot (as fast as Lebron).  Wonder what the Jokers time is ? 

Jokic projecting back wouldn't even have been allowed to play the style he can play today. 
Jokic is fantastic, taking nothing away, projected back into that era he would play differently, be primarily an inside force as the era called for.  
Projected forward some of the all time great centers of old would also play differently and their bodies benefit from the improvements of the era.

[Winter]

If both OKC and Minnesota win out, who has the tie-breaker?