TDL Archived: The 2nd Rnd Pick Yankee Swap

[SleepingHero]

No, no, no, no, no...now we're talking Green AND Hardy?????

If this is anything close to reality, I am OUT on this one.

I don't think this is based in reality.

Hawks fans perceptions is that they're gonna have to attach a pick to get off of Collins contract. He's playing like ass this year. Wood+Salary Relief is probably the best they're gonna get. We'll see what DET/UTA/PHX also are cooking up as they've also been named as suitors.

[DanSchwartzgan]

https://twitter.com/mazurfocus/status/16...5605630976

double posting this here since we're on topic.

Didn't find that one at the site.  Did find this gem:


 
Mavericks Receive: Jae Crowder and DeAndre Ayton
Suns Receive: Christian Wood, Dwight Powell, Reggie Bullock, and two first-round picks



0“Ayton would give the Mavs their big man and defensive anchor of the future whose timeline matches up with Doncic. The pick-and-roll between the two would be a lethal threat as Doncic can make any big man a viable option as a roll man.”

The trade not only lands Dallas a star in Ayton to pair with Doncic but also lands them Crowder, a team they’ve been linked to recently.

---

The Mavericks ‘Have Talked’ About Bringing Back Crowder
According to Heavy Sports’ Sean Deveney, Dallas has explored a deal to reunite disgruntled Suns forward Jae Crowder with the Mavs.

“[The Mavericks] have talked about Jae Crowder, bringing him back,” a Western Conference exec told Deveney. “That is the kind of player they’re looking at but there is not much there that Phoenix would want—the Suns want someone who is going to help them now. Dallas doesn’t have that unless they were to make it a bigger deal.”

Crowder has been looking for a way out of the desert since the preseason.  But if the Mavericks will likely face stiff competition for Crowder. According to Shams Charania, the Milwaukee Bucks have been in talks with Phoenix. The Golden State Warriors and Atlanta Hawks are also lurking. The Bucks and Warriors represent two of the smartest front offices, though — Dallas would be wise to follow their leads.

But the unquestioned prize of the trade would be adding Ayton, who could form one of the league’s most potent pick-and-roll combos with Luka Doncic.

---

DeAndre Ayton Could Turbocharge Mavericks’ Season

Stop me if you’ve heard this one before: (insert center here) would form a mouth-watering partnership with Luka Doncic. The Mavs have searched high and low for that elusive big man, with deals for Kristaps Porzingis, JaVale McGee, and Christian Wood highlighting the bunch.

But (not to sound like the writer who cried center) Ayton would be the REAL DEAL. Right now, Dwight Powell runs the most pick-and-rolls in the league (min. 20 games played), resulting in just 2.5 points. Ayton, on the other hand, runs the eighth-most PnRs but is notching 4.5 points, on par with the Heat’s Bam Adebayo.

And if you think Crowder is the only disgruntled Suns player, guess again. During the Suns’ loss to the Sacramento Kings earlier this week, Ayton was spotted in a heated argument with head coach Monty Williams.

Given Josh Green‘s stronger play of late and Tim Hardaway, Jr. finally discovering his shooting stroke, the Mavs can afford to let go of Reggie Bullock’s inconsistent scoring. Ditto for Wood; it would be a tough pill to swallow, given that he’s arguably been Dallas’ second-best player this season. But if Ayton is on the table, the Mavs should sign the former No. 1 overall pick and not look back.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Hey man, I'm not sure how that comment came across to you, and if it offends, then I'm sorry.  

It seems to have offended you, which was not my intent, so I apologize!!!!!!

I PASSIONATELY think I'm in the right on this argument - that's all.

Not offended.  Just worn out.  You've done this at least a half dozen times the last few days and it gets old.  It is weak sauce and you don't need to do it.  You make excellent contributions to this board.  Just trying to prod you toward sticking with your strong arguments and away from this 9th grade debate team stuff (at a 3-A school in a small town).  I shouldn't have gone there.  My apologies too.

[F Gump]

... despite you straw-manning me on purpose just now....

Nope never did on purpose, nor would I. (And imo never did accidentally either.)

My point is still the same. Wood hasn't been good enough. Unlike you, I don't think I know better than they do about how to develop player skills in the most effective, efficient way. I think the Mavs HAVE been doing everything possible to make Wood useful and that it's a process, in various venues and diverse methods, and not a simple matter of blindly dumping him on the court and whatever happens happens. If it was that simple, his flaws would have been erased long ago, rather than team after team fail and give up.

But with this nonsense of you thinking you can read my mind to create nefarious intent, and the way you keep twisting what I say into something else to try to make some point or other, and the way you say one thing in one post and the opposite in another, count me out.

PS - If your gratuitous note about Tyson Chandler was meant to be relevant, to me it wasn't. I thought he was a great pickup and an ideal running mate for Dirk. You aren't being informative when you say you liked him, because we all did, and as DS says, it's just victim schtick. And what the Mavs did 12 years ago has little relevance to our conversation.

[SleepingHero]

Mavericks Receive: Jae Crowder and DeAndre Ayton
Suns Receive: Christian Wood, Dwight Powell, Reggie Bullock, and two first-round picks

The fact I am so emphatically positive about this trade makes me think it's incredibly unrealistic.

[F Gump]

Potential deal: Collins to Dallas for Christian Wood, Josh Green and Frank Ntilikina.

Western Conference executive: “The Hawks would probably want more, they’d want a pick or Jaden hardy, something like that, but the Mavs really like Josh Green and they’re not talking about dealing him at this point. Anything can change, though. One of the problems is, do you think Collins is a big upgrade over Christian Wood? By reputation, yes. But when you talk about production, they’re not that far off, and Wood is cheaper. Dallas could offer more assets, more young assets, and put (Davis) Bertans in the deal but I doubt Atlanta goes for that.”

https://heavy.com/sports/miami-heat/john...lls-trade/

This was NOT a report of an offer. This is just spitballing of ideas from random unnamed bystanders, but no info by either team.

[KillerLeft]

You've done this at least a half dozen times the last few days and it gets old.

Please help, because I'm genuinely lost. What, precisely (explain it like I'm a dummy, because sometimes I am) do you mean by "this"?

[KillerLeft]

Nope never did on purpose, nor would I. (And imo never did accidentally either.)

My point is still the same. Wood hasn't been good enough. Unlike you, I don't think I know better than they do about how to develop player skills in the most effective, efficient way. I think the Mavs HAVE been doing everything possible to make Wood useful and that it's a process, in various venues and diverse methods, and not a simple matter of blindly dumping him on the court and whatever happens happens. If it was that simple, his flaws would have been erased long ago, rather than team after team fail and give up.

But with this nonsense of you thinking you can read my mind to create nefarious intent, and the way you keep twisting what I say into something else to try to make some point or other, and the way you say one thing in one post and the opposite in another, count me out.

PS - If your gratuitous note about Tyson Chandler was meant to be relevant, to me it wasn't. I thought he was a great pickup and an ideal running mate for Dirk. You aren't being informative when you say you liked him, because we all did, and as DS says, it's just victim schtick. And what the Mavs did 12 years ago has little relevance to our conversation.

Well, tbh, your characterization of my points as (paraphrasing by memory, sorry) "suggesting that he'll magically be able to defend by changing the context" was wildly offensive to me, and not remotely close to what I've been saying. Truly, nowhere near correct. 

If you didn't do it on purpose, fine, and I'm certainly not meaning to perform some sort of "victim schtick" (honestly), but I admit that one pissed me off.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

https://twitter.com/mazurfocus/status/16...5605630976

double posting this here since we're on topic.

I definitely believe this is something Mark Cuban would do.

I was the last person here to come abroad the Josh Green train and even I would not include him in this trade.

[KillerLeft]

Just trying to prod you toward sticking with your strong arguments and away from this 9th grade debate team stuff (at a 3-A school in a small town).  I shouldn't have gone there.  My apologies too.

And see, I feel like I might be missing something in my own behavior that's wearing you out, and I very much want to understand what and improve. This "missing" and "wanting" are both genuine, and I'd like to understand what I'm doing to annoy you, because you are one of the smarter folks here and rarely engage with me, which bums me out a bit, sometimes. 

But this, above, is the most overtly insulting thing anyone has ever said to me on this forum. Very mean-spirited, imo, and the kind of thing I sometimes think about others here but do not say.

---

The fact I am so emphatically positive about this trade makes me think it's incredibly unrealistic.

This is why I said what I said about Chandler. Not to call anyone out or make anyone feel bad, because opinions vary, and I thought we had thick skin around here. 

But honestly, do you REALLY think Ayton is worth two firsts? 

To me, he'll be a dinosaur in 4 years.

[Kammrath]

You like this deal @Kammrath???

No definitely don't. 

I like JC as much as Wood. This deal makes it seem like JC is in another class as a player which I do not think is true.

[Bayliss]

I think Ayton is pretty much a dinosaur now.  He has no post game.  And he cannot shoot.  He is decent at pick and roll, and he can defend somewhat.

But he can be played off the floor because he cannot punish smaller players, nd he cannot draw bg players out of the paint and make them pay.

I'd take Brook Lopez over him any day of the week.  Brook changed his game to stay in the league.  Now, he can shoot from outside, and he protects the paint better than anyone outside of Gobert.  He struggles with pick and roll but that's why he drops coverage, and he only plays about half the game. But the bang to buck ration with Lopez is so much higher than it is with Ayton.

[KillerLeft]

No definitely don't. 

I like JC as much as Wood. This deal makes it seem like JC is in another class as a player which I do not think is true.

I agree completely, and frankly I don't even feel comfortable knowing which is better until seeing them both for 20 games here with the Mavs. 

I'm sure the Mavs have a solid opinion on that, or at least I hope they do. 

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I think I might even prefer letting Wood walk (ugh) over including Green AND Hardy in a potential deal for Collins. I'm officially sold on Green, and I really think moving him now would be selling too low.

[F Gump]

Well, tbh, your characterization of my points as (paraphrasing by memory, sorry) "suggesting that he'll magically be able to defend by changing the context" was wildly offensive to me, and not remotely close to what I've been saying. Truly, nowhere near correct. 

If you didn't do it on purpose, fine, and I'm certainly not meaning to perform some sort of "victim schtick" (honestly), but I admit that one pissed me off.

If you say so, okay. If anything, I only think it misses on nuance, but whatever you say.

FWIW there were lots of things you shotgunned that really didn't align with my points at all, in fact where you lecture me on the OPPOSITE of what I say as if you "win," but I just tried to steer you back by repeating my pov -- until you do this stuff. So if you're pissed, dude, that's on you. I'm still not interested in continuing to discuss further.

And trying to prove a point by referring to discussions from 12 years ago that I didn't even have, what kind of nonsense is that? I know what I thought then, and what I heard then, and I don't think you're even close in your general characterizations. (I'd take that TY on this team and think he'd be ideal. Wish that was an option.)

On the relevant stuff, I don't buy your points on Wood, or Kidd, or a lot of the rest, and I don't think the Mavs have been messing up with their head up their butt. You think otherwise, I get it, and we can agree to disagree.

You can argue this with someone else if you wish, but please don't include me (or say I said this or that, since you aren't diligent to try to accurately relate what I am trying to say).

[KillerLeft]

I think Ayton is pretty much a dinosaur now.  He has no post game.  And he cannot shoot.  He is decent at pick and roll, and he can defend somewhat.

But he can be played off the floor because he cannot punish smaller players, nd he cannot draw bg players out of the paint and make them pay.

See, this is kind of where I am with Ayton, too. I honestly don't see much to like. Seems like a more expensive Powell who's a malcontent instead of a leading-by-example glue guy.

[Kammrath]

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I think I might even prefer letting Wood walk (ugh) over including Green AND Hardy in a potential deal for Collins. I'm officially sold on Green, and I really think moving him now would be selling too low.

That's like asking me if I would prefer to cut off my hand or my foot.

[Chicagojk]

https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status...0474352640

Oh My God...why?   Why in the world do the Wizards want Crowder?  They are going no where.   I don't know if they have a single player on their roster who will be there in 3-4 years.  I think they should be tanking.  Although that is sort of tough with KP and Beal on huge deals.   

I am not sure what the Suns are hoping for but I think the teams who are interested in Crowder probably don't want to give up a solid starter.

[KillerLeft]

If you say so, okay. If anything, I only think it misses on nuance, but whatever you say.

FWIW there were lots of things you shotgunned that really didn't align with my points at all, in fact where you lecture me on the OPPOSITE of what I say as if you "win," but I just tried to steer you back by repeating my pov -- until you do this stuff. So if you're pissed, dude, that's on you. I'm still not interested in continuing to discuss further.

And trying to prove a point by referring to discussions from 12 years ago that I didn't even have, what kind of nonsense is that? I know what I thought then, and what I heard then, and I don't think you're even close in your general characterizations. (I'd take that TY on this team and think he'd be ideal. Wish that was an option.)

On the relevant stuff, I don't buy your points on Wood, or Kidd, or a lot of the rest, and I don't think the Mavs have been messing up with their head up their butt. You think otherwise, I get it, and we can agree to disagree.

You can argue this with someone else if you wish, but please don't include me (or say I said this or that, since you aren't diligent to try to accurately relate what I am trying to say).

I'm not pissed now, nor in general with you, whether we agree or disagree. That one, specific paraphrasing by you that I mentioned drew me pretty far offsides, mostly because I interpreted it as a willful misinterpretation of what I feel I've been clear about in the 9,000 posts we've all written to debate this topic. Maybe I misinterpreted. If so, sorry!

To me, there are two sides of this conversation, one which you (rightly, imo) have been the voice of reason on since the beginning, about how it's up to Wood to live up to what's expected of him and become a professional, not about the Mavericks giving anything to him. The other is about what role, in an ideal world, Wood should play. On that topic, @"DanSchwartzgan", whose opinions I also respect, and I could not be more far apart. I am more convinced today than I ever have been that I have the right of that. 

I read your offering as if you thought I was arguing against the first point, not debating the second part. To be fair, they are obviously overlapping to a large extent, so tricky to separate, and I'm not insensitive to the realities of trying to make any plan with a professional athlete who has shown a history of being undependable. In fact, I'm pretty sure I was one of the first around here to bring that up after the trade. 

Now, if you feel I misinterpreted your initial offering today and misconstrued any of your points in a similarly frustrating way, well that's possible, and I apologize. 

I'm here to discuss the Mavs, not to "win".

What I don't get is how disagreeing with someone amounts to "victim schtick"...I'd like to think that if I was running some type of schtick I'd at least be aware of it. 

I do not care if you respond or not. I will quote whom I wish (including you) and engage how I wish (within the bounds of good taste). I will continue to respect your contributions whether you think I'm an idiot or whatever, and when I feel like engaging, I will.

[SkenfromLMF]

Not offended.  Just worn out.  You've done this at least a half dozen times the last few days and it gets old.  It is weak sauce and you don't need to do it.  You make excellent contributions to this board.  Just trying to prod you toward sticking with your strong arguments and away from this 9th grade debate team stuff (at a 3-A school in a small town).  I shouldn't have gone there.  My apologies too.

Bullard needs an apology sir!

[Reunion Mav]

Please!!!!!  I am hurt type discussions have ruined this board for some in the past and are ruining this board right now. This board is and can be great precisely because we have so many knowledgeable posters. No surprise to anyone, we don’t always agree. We are also mostly competitive people who really care about Maverick basketball. 

Please stop competing by trying to convert others to our own way of thinking. Please stop belittling the points of others. Please stop sharing when you feel butthurt. As has been said often Let it go!