TRADE: Dinwiddie + Bertans to DAL | KP + 2nd to WAS

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

After all, the expiring deals would ONLY have benefitted Cuban, right? I think money coming off the books is maybe the last thing we should want right now

Feels like people here are having a hard time grasping this concept.

[Arioch]

Bobby Marks on the Lowe Podcast said his sources told him Wednesday night that the deal looked to be Dragic, matching salaries, and a future 1st.   

Everybody seems to be focusing on the Dragic and future first, but what about the matching salaries? Who would we have had to send out to get that pick?

[fifteenth]

from wizards reddit
NO WAY WE GOT PORZINGIS FOR DINWIDDIE WTF
AND WE LOST BERTANS LMAOOOOO
Like when your mom “loses” their kids annoying toy that flashes 15 colors and high pitched beeping
Must be my birthday
Lost? More like Dumped
Why did your team do this? I can't figure it out at all.
And Dallas gave us a draft pick. Amazing
Bertans lfgooooooo!!!!!!
Ya we also get a 2nd round pick lmao
GIVE THIS MAN THE KEYS TO THE CITY HE GOT BERTANS GONE TOO
The biggest fleece of all-time. LITERALLY!
WHY WOULD DALLAS DO THAT?! WHY ARE THEY SO NICE?!
they gave him away for an inefficient player and hall of fame brick machine - and none of them gonna get any better since they are even older than him. that's a steal for the wizards.
no one saying they won't fit the dallas system but it really doesn't matter lmao - both of them aren't going to be plus for their defense and overall dallas could've gotten much more for a player like Kristaps - Wizards robbed them.
WE IN THE WIZARDS BED TONIGHT BABY!!!!
WE DID IT! HE ACTUALLY PULLED IT OFF! BOTH DINWIDDIE AND BERTANS GONE!
This is wild, getting Porzingus for dinwiddie + bertans while getting a pick back?
Haven't been watching the mavs, so is the trick here that Porzingis is secretly washed/not that great, or did we fleece the mavs?
When was the last time wiz had a pf as good as him? Thats what im excited about.
West Coast teams are ran by people that do heavy drugs. It has to be. Teams shouldn't be allowed to make trades while not sober

I guess I generally don't think of fan reactions as source material. The exception is that there are folks here, because I've seen their body of work, who I listen to very closely. And really, if a fan can make a good argument, I'll listen for sure. But in general, I think the fan mob is usually wrong.

[Kammrath]

Your two takes that both players are better than Porzingis does not suggest that Cuban is eating humble pie at all.

You really think that's my perspective? It is not. I never said each of the players was better than KP.

My position:

1) BOTH players as a package (if playing to what they have been over their careers) are better than the reality (not the "potential") of KP.

2) I think Bertans by himself (if healthy and playing like the few years before this one) is a better FIT with Luka.

3) I have questions about Dinwiddie defensively (more than Bertans) and his outside shot is a concern. But he is exactly what this board has been clamoring for (whether they realize it or not) in regard to another shot creator and someone to instigate the offense through. 

4) I believe the KP we have been seeing is the absolute best we will see of him from the rest of his career. I personally think his "potential" is really imaginary at this point. 

I could be wrong about a lot of this, but this is my ACTUAL position on these things as of now.

[cow]

2) I think Bertans by himself (if healthy and playing like the few years before this one) is a better FIT with Luka.

It might be a chicken and an egg argument.  Luka can get Bertans shots and improve his numbers I'm sure.  But can you play them on the floor together, particularly if you are also playing JB and further, in the playoffs and in winning time.

[VintagePejav2]

The Raptors asked for KP AND Brunson.. that’s where the 1st round pick from Toronto came in. They were absolutely not giving Dallas a 1st and an expiring purely for KP’s contract, get real people.

[TXBamanut]

Dinwiddie also hasn't looked right since his ACL surgery and we are now 13 months removed from that.  That's typically a 9 month injury.

Mellie to Bertans isn't a great comp.  Mellie could do everything but shoot.  Bertans can only shoot.

That's what I meant by he's not as good as Mellie (who was pretty horrible in my opinion).  We'll have to see if Bertans can still shoot.

[cow]

The Raptors asked for KP AND Brunson.. that’s where the 1st round pick from Toronto came in. They were absolutely not giving Dallas a 1st and an expiring purely for KP’s contract, get real people.

There certainly could have been more to the deal but I think if the ask was JB, that would have been leaked.

[VintagePejav2]

There certainly could have been more to the deal but I think if the ask was JB, that would have been leaked.

Well, where do you think the leak came from?

The Mavs were always going to have to pay to get off Porzingis. This idea that a team was going to give an expiring and a 1st for KP in 2022 is absurd.

[cow]

That's what I meant by he's not as good as Mellie (who was pretty horrible in my opinion).  We'll have to see if Bertans can still shoot.

Mellie would have been fine if he could have hit a jumper.  He had a good feel for the game but that was all for not because he bricked like Westbrook.  Wish we could Frankenstein Melli and Bertans.

[omahen]

Who would we have had to send out to get that pick?

THJ, that most of people wanted to get rid of?

[TXBamanut]

It might be a chicken and an egg argument.  Luka can get Bertans shots and improve his numbers I'm sure.  But can you play them on the floor together, particularly if you are also playing JB and further, in the playoffs and in winning time.

Yeah, Bertans is a terrible defender.  He's 429th in the NBA in defensive rating.  317th in steal percentage.  He's at 314th in block % and 434th in defensive win shares.  There's very little he does good except shoot...so you are basically playing a swinging door that shoots (if he actually gets that back) with Luka.

[ItsGoTime]

See, I agree the 1st makes it a conversation (and maybe a short one). Maybe the 1st should just automatically make that the right choice. I think that is a valid POV. 

But, I'm surprised that you, of all people, don't see where I'm coming from with the point. This trade basically means that Cuban had a way to spend less money on the team, short term, and opted to ADD money next year. In fact, he has already done so by extending DFS. 

This means that they are NOT going for cap space anytime soon, which I know you hate. And, even if they do that in 23'-24', it would have been really easy for him to simply lower payroll in the meantime, rather than give the front office some contracts that can be moved (the old, pre-championship way of building) to try to get better sooner, rather than simply waiting for that summer to get here. THAT's what I've understood to be your main beef with that approach, no? The waiting?

So, my anger is subsiding a bit, I just hate how much push back you guys are putting out there. I wanted KP gone pretty much as much as the majority on him, heck, I almost tried to force another sig bet that KP would be injured if he wasn't traded by the TDL, that's how much I wanted him gone too. This package is a full on turd though. 


I will admit, had the trade come out as the TOR trade, I would have been upset, until I saw the reports that the one other trade they could have made was this one. 

As of today, I put the chances as 50% that SD comes in here and is not happy with being a bench player, but probably doesn't immediately express that upsettedness, it'll just show up in how he plays (similar to THJ) and possibly some good natured ribbing chirps in the lockerroom.

I hate to think this, but because of SD, I really think JB is lost to one of the two teams that are putting out the full court press for his services this offseason (or another team as yet to be unveiled) due to SD's approach to the game. Luka wants the ball in his hands (and thinks it's better in his hands than anyone else), JB wants the ball in his hands (and thinks it's better in his hands than anyone not named Luka), SD wants the ball in his hands (and thinks it's better in his hands than anyone not named Luka...probably). You see the conflict there? 

With Dragic, JB isn't worried one bit...I mean, he's expiring first, then he's fine off ball too. He can work with either of them on the court, or neither of them (hopefully not both of them for much time). If he signs back up in the offseason, it's for a small contract, not a contract JB will demand which puts JB firmly in the drivers seat in terms of team salary hierarchy. If he doesn't sign here, we're looking for someone to fill his spot, but will follow this same hierarchy.

This trade makes an already lowly talented big man spot(s) even less talented with no follow up trade to fit the issue. Maybe the TOR trade doesn't help that out with the salary ballast players either, but here we are, and I don't like it. 

Bertans at his best, is basically a bigger THJ (of the last 2 years). We have THJ on the team already, we want 2 2nd stringers doing almost the exact same thing? That's just weird to me as a "want". I mean, THJ isn't retiring right? If we're going to trade THJ, WHY DO WE WANT HIM BACK IN ANOTHER PLAYERS BODY? (maybe all caps isn't the right choice there, but I'm too lazy to go back and correct it...)

I hope things go well with the players we acquired, but at the time of the trade, this return is an absolute turd and should be treated as such when dealing with the team trying to polish that turd (we should have been operating with a higher degree of leverage with them). Give us at least a 1st in this trade and we can start to debate the validity of this vs that. As it is, we gave the second...

[cow]

Well, where do you think the leak came from?

Where do any leaks come from?  People have sources.  Jalen has a big enough name that if he was part of the framework, it would have leaked.

[TXBamanut]

Mellie would have been fine if he could have hit a jumper.  He had a good feel for the game but that was all for not because he bricked like Westbrook.  Wish we could Frankenstein Melli and Bertans.

Now see, that I could live with coming off the bench, even though there really wasn't anything that Melli did well, he was passable...Bertans, from what I've seen, other than shooting is a train wreck...which is another reason that if he was shooting 31%, he could get on the floor.

[cow]

THJ, that most of people wanted to get rid of?

And how would Toronto salary match that?  KP + THJ is like $50m.

[omahen]

And how would Toronto salary match that?  KP + THJ is like $50m.

Sorry, I misread. I thought he was asking which contract would we have with assets in the summer, if we wouldn't have Dinwiddie and Bertans.

[Borkhan]

The fact is that for last four years mavs has been jawing about the talent they will acquire around luka to form a champ team. up till now they only bought mediocre players who almost all bombed or fizzled out (not including kp). And now, they yanked the only (frequently missing) half-star in kp, to replace him with mediocre players that missed the similar amount of games, than he did; and which definitely does not play on kp level when healthy. So, how will this move, taking away the only other threat for the opposing teams, replacing it with two disgruntled, ball hogging, injury prone players, whom their previous team prayed to get rid of, as one of them is supposedly a locker cancer and both on downward slope,  help to form a champ team around luka?

luka started to play when he was 13 so it is quite possible that these years, his 21-25th. are possibly his pinnacle years. Will he look around and see, that basically (brunson excluded) he cannot count on anybody to replace him for few minutes of deserved rest? That mavs championship is in this situation a pipe dream? Or will he look further, i.e. to another teams for realizing his  dream? Simmons did, Harden did, and a lot of other players did and will do. We cannot expect luka to spend 15 years in dallas waiting till gm and fo and owner find players to complement him all the time counting the costs; he will be gone before that, he said himself championship is above the money... I know building a team takes time but it has been long years now already...

[ItsGoTime]

This is a legit discussion that actually has some history with this forum. It's not a slam dunk that cap space is better than tradeable contracts and staying over the cap while remaking a team. That's an ongoing conversation and teams have rebuilt themselves using both approaches. 

The next thing might be harder for you to take. I know most of the forum is dead set against what I'm about to say, but as I tried to listen to folks that know more than us message board folk (usually) yesterday on podcasts and Followill's extra long post game show on the ticket I heard several folks (in the talking basketball business) mention what some have said here, that the two contracts we traded for are actually tradeable and fit into a good salary range for creating trades. 

Also, it helps them to have this opinion that these media folks generally don't hate the two players as much as almost everyone here does (seems like here we're stuck on what they are in 2022, in their current situation). 

But the main point, though, is that in the trade game in the NBA, contracts the size of the two we just acquired are very useful (I'm getting this from the folks who cover the sport!). And a max contract for "not-max" player is not a contract that's useful in the trade game.

Cuban said we're out of LT hell (btw, "hell" is the repeater tax, not a 1 year dip, but I digress) the next year, so not sure where you're going with this based on the info out right now. Whoopity doo, we go over the tax for 1 year, then we have $75 to 95M for 4-5 players, how does that work out with the remaining salary?

[cow]

Sorry, I misread. I thought he was asking which contract would we have with assets in the summer, if we wouldn't have Dinwiddie and Bertans.

Maybe it's my misread?