TRADE: Dinwiddie + Bertans to DAL | KP + 2nd to WAS

[KillerLeft]

I don't think Luka had a say in this one.

Maybe not specifically with the hour-to-hour goings on at the trade deadline, or even the idea that they were shopping Porzingis. 

But, come on. Why is Boban even employed? Even try to point out how ridiculous that is, and you'll get the "he's Luka's friend" response in under two minutes (maybe rightfully so, Idk). 

I find it hard to believe that they haven't checked in with Luka in a general way to get a general sense of what he thinks about playing with KP, and that such a conversation probably includes a general locker-room "vibe" aspect to it, intrinsically.

[Tyler]

Cuban really thinks Dinwiddie and Bertans is better than expirings and a 1st rd pick.

In terms of talent, it objectively is better for the on-court product. At least in the near term. If that deal was truly the other option, no matter how you feel about Dinwiddie and Bertans I personally respect Cuban for committing to paying the tax rather than simply pocketing the money and selling promises of future picks and powder.

[KillerLeft]

Bobby Marks starts laughing trying to describe Dinwiddie and Bertans.  Cuban really thinks Dinwiddie and Bertans is better than expirings and a 1st rd pick.  It's GM malpractice.

You might be right, that it's not better. But, fwiw, I'm starting to buy-in to the idea that this was all Nico, not Cuban. It's just a feeling I'm getting from taking everything in. Maybe that's just me being a sucker, idk. 

And to be honest, I'm kind of encouraged that they didn't go for the expiring deal, if it was really there. Cuban basically said he was going to pay the tax next season, which has me believing Brunson will be back, and that we're not about to be told "just wait until the summer of ____" again for a good, long while. 

After all, the expiring deals would ONLY have benefitted Cuban, right? I think money coming off the books is maybe the last thing we should want right now, as fans, from a certain perspective...IF they don't let Brunson walk this summer. 

If they let Brunson go because Dinwiddie and THJ are here under contract, I will instantly change my tune. My assumption (because it's what we're being told) is that the plan is to re-sign Brunson, even if it means paying tax. They've already re-signed DFS (woo!). From there it seems obvious to me that they're going to start shopping THJ, Dinwiddie (unless he's good here, which is possible), Bertans, etc, etc. 

I admit that the idea that they left a first on the table is a little disappointing, and I also admit that this piece of info (if true) points to the idea that Cuban is still the main architect behind it all.

[SatnamSingh]

If we're going to now argue that Davis Bertans and Spencer Dinwiddie on long term deals is better asset management than expiring contracts and a 1st round pick  (and something that Cuban deserves respect for), I guess I'll bow out of the discussion.  

I dont really know how to rationally respond to that.

---

Here are the reactions when Dinwiddie's name was brought up in free agency rumors:

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=682&pid=93109#pid93109

[SatnamSingh]

Reactions to a possible Bertans and 2 young players package in exchange for KP

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=622&pid=85036#pid85036

[cow]

KOGeek from The Ringer says the Raptors offer was Dragic + 1st. Haha I´m telling you Cuban did this trade for Bertans/Dinwiddie over Dragic, because he seriously and legitimately believes he improved the team more with Bertans/Dinwiddie.

What
The
Fuck

[ItsGoTime]

I'm confident that polling all GMs in the NBA which package they would prefer based on the package that was accepted and the package that was rumored to be on the table (Dragic+7.4M salary ballast which isn't just Birch+1st) the vast majority would have picked the TOR package.

[KillerLeft]

If we're going to now argue that Davis Bertans and Spencer Dinwiddie on long term deals is better asset management than expiring contracts and a 1st round pick  (and something that Cuban deserves respect for), I guess I'll bow out of the discussion. 

That's not at all what I'm saying. 

There's a long history of discussion here about "plan powder" which is a name that I hate, and an approach to roster building that I thought was the dumbest possible way to go right after the championship year. Some were into it back then, some weren't. 

I hated it then, but have been one of its bigger supporters here since Luka arrived, basically trying to avoid the exact situation they find themselves in right now (thanks to the Porzingis extension). 

The thing is, it didn't work - last summer was their last chance (imo) to make it work. Luka's extension kicks in next season, as I'm sure you know. 

I was merely trying to express that Cuban's willingness to go into the tax with some bad deals (that can hopefully be moved at some point for better ones) might represent a positive change in philosophy compared to turning KP into expiring money that would literally just come off the books and not be usable until enough other money came off to create the amount of space needed to continue that approach that has failed. 

I think you can make an argument for that...IF he spends the money, in the meantime. If Brunson walks over a better financial offer than he can get here, then HELL YES, the expiring money would have been the way to go!

[KillerLeft]

I'm confident that polling all GMs in the NBA which package they would prefer based on the package that was accepted and the package that was rumored to be on the table (Dragic+7.4M salary ballast which isn't just Birch+1st) the vast majority would have picked the TOR package.

See, I agree the 1st makes it a conversation (and maybe a short one). Maybe the 1st should just automatically make that the right choice. I think that is a valid POV. 

But, I'm surprised that you, of all people, don't see where I'm coming from with the point. This trade basically means that Cuban had a way to spend less money on the team, short term, and opted to ADD money next year. In fact, he has already done so by extending DFS. 

This means that they are NOT going for cap space anytime soon, which I know you hate. And, even if they do that in 23'-24', it would have been really easy for him to simply lower payroll in the meantime, rather than give the front office some contracts that can be moved (the old, pre-championship way of building) to try to get better sooner, rather than simply waiting for that summer to get here. THAT's what I've understood to be your main beef with that approach, no? The waiting?

[cow]

Though the people outraged really do need to take a step back and realize that getting 2 rotation players for Porzingis is objectively better for a team trying to compete than a first that is protected 1-14 this year and 1-13 next year.

Try to compete for what?  A second round exit?  A FRP is far more valuable to the team if they want to compete for championship in the future and retain Luka long term.

The Mavericks are the worst run basketball team in the NBA.

[omahen]

Try to compete for what?  A second round exit?  A FRP is far more valuable to the team if they want to compete for championship in the future and retain Luka long term.

The Mavericks are the worst run basketball team in the NBA.

Agree. KP salary dump would basically enable Mavs to stay out of tax and sign MLE player. They would also have an asset more to throw in a trade (and THJ contract for the match). Or you jugle Dragic contract into something else if you prefer.

[fifteenth]

If we're going to now argue that Davis Bertans and Spencer Dinwiddie on long term deals is better asset management than expiring contracts and a 1st round pick  (and something that Cuban deserves respect for), I guess I'll bow out of the discussion.  

I dont really know how to rationally respond to that.

This is a legit discussion that actually has some history with this forum. It's not a slam dunk that cap space is better than tradeable contracts and staying over the cap while remaking a team. That's an ongoing conversation and teams have rebuilt themselves using both approaches. 

The next thing might be harder for you to take. I know most of the forum is dead set against what I'm about to say, but as I tried to listen to folks that know more than us message board folk (usually) yesterday on podcasts and Followill's extra long post game show on the ticket I heard several folks (in the talking basketball business) mention what some have said here, that the two contracts we traded for are actually tradeable and fit into a good salary range for creating trades. 

Also, it helps them to have this opinion that these media folks generally don't hate the two players as much as almost everyone here does (seems like here we're stuck on what they are in 2022, in their current situation). 

But the main point, though, is that in the trade game in the NBA, contracts the size of the two we just acquired are very useful (I'm getting this from the folks who cover the sport!). And a max contract for "not-max" player is not a contract that's useful in the trade game.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Bertans had his best stat season in his first year with Washington.  But I thought I would look at highlights of both Dinwiddie and Bertans with their previous teams.   BTW, the Spurs traded Bertans for DeMarre Carroll.  Any idea why the reason they traded him?



I think these are probably the looks he will get here.   In Washington in the games I saw he took some tough shots.  Hopefully he gets back to the type of shooter he has been in the past.  Ideally maybe an 8-10 per game scorer with good efficiency.



I admit these highlights look good.  Can he still play this way?  Can he fit his game with Luka when on the court with him?  This summer I wanted Derozan to play as a secondary creator when Luka rotates the ball.  Can Dinwiddie do what I hoped Derozan would at a lesser degree?

Thanks for this. I’d personally rather have Dinwiddie than Dragic.  It probably won’t be a popular take, but I see more upside.  I have no idea what Dragic has left, but if SD plays up to his potential, I don’t think our bench will lose leads and may create leads when we are trailing.  It also takes some pressure off of Luka and JB who carry too much pressure as things stand now.  I get that we could have saved a bunch of money letting Dragic expire, but it wouldn’t have created space and we’d still need to fill the slot with someone.  A healthy SD can be a sixth man candidate fairly easily.  Yeah, I’d rather pay the MLE for that, but it isn’t my money.

The question for me in terms of the alleged Toronto option is Bertans vs. Birch for 2 years at lesser dollars and a first in the 20’s.  For the life of his contract, Bertans is probably more valuable (as long as the extra dollars don’t cause Cuban to pinch pennies somewhere else).  Again, I can really see the benefit of Bertans opening things up for the bench unit.  He is going to make it difficult for teams to double the ball if he gets his shot back.  There is a body of work that says he has value.  But, it is easy to succumb to recency bias which says he’s a mutt.

[cow]

This is a legit discussion that actually has some history with this forum. It's not a slam dunk that cap space is better than tradeable contracts and staying over the cap while remaking a team. That's an ongoing conversation and teams have rebuilt themselves using both approaches. 

The next thing might be harder for you to take. I know most of the forum is dead set against what I'm about to say, but as I tried to listen to folks that know more than us message board folk (usually) yesterday on podcasts and Followill's extra long post game show on the ticket I heard several folks (in the talking basketball business) mention what some have said here, that the two contracts we traded for are actually tradeable and fit into a good salary range for creating trades. 

Also, it helps them to have this opinion that these media folks generally don't hate the two players as much as almost everyone here does (seems like here we're stuck on what they are in 2022, in their current situation). 

But the main point, though, is that in the trade game in the NBA, contracts the size of the two we just acquired are very useful (I'm getting this from the folks who cover the sport!). And a max contract for "not-max" player is not a contract that's useful in the trade game.

From a salary matching standpoint, mid sized contracts are valuable.  They are more valuable if the player is useful and is a shorter term contract. Stick Dinwiddie in this camp even if the partial gaurentee on his last year ($10m) is a bit odd.  Bertans is far less useful due to skillset, contract size and years left.  But salary filler is only useful if you have other assets to attach to it.   Our cupboard is a little bare in that regard:

-Dorian (whenever he is eligible to be traded)
-JB (S&T or same as Dorian if he extends)
-Maxi (useful expiring)
-Powell (expiring)
-Josh Green (I personally don't think he's shown enough to get anyone excited beyond being used for a minor salary match)
-THJ in '23-24 or the final year of his contract.
-'27 FRP (think that's the soonest available until our owed '23 conveys).
-Dinwiddie in '23-24
-Bertans in '24-25 

I can kind of understand the thinking behind Dinwiddie and Bertans are more useful pieces to the team on the court and more flexible to be moved because of contract sizes, but that assumes you have valuable assets to attach to them to obtain whoever the trade target is.  It also assumes you have a competent front office.  We don't have much of the former and we shouldn't have in faith in the latter.  

As someone else mentioned, if Dinwiddie was the prize, you probably should have taken the Dragic deal and then done a separate deal for Dinwiddie and tried to pocket the pick.  Sorry I forgot who posted that thought.

It really feels like Cuban is misevaluating what he has and is trying to recrate the magic of the 2011 season.   This team isn't a move away.  We are in one of the more unenviable positions to be given we have a superstar.  Good enough to make the playoffs, not near good enough to compete for titles, nowhere near bad enough for the lottery.  I'd rank us somewhere around the original Cavs led by LeBron.  Problem is that LeBron was better and the East was a whole lot worse.

The plus side to this is the willingness to move off of KP.  Luka also seems patient and as expected, isn't asserting himself in the front office decisions yet.

[Borkhan]

from wizards reddit
NO WAY WE GOT PORZINGIS FOR DINWIDDIE WTF
AND WE LOST BERTANS LMAOOOOO
Like when your mom “loses” their kids annoying toy that flashes 15 colors and high pitched beeping
Must be my birthday
Lost? More like Dumped
Why did your team do this? I can't figure it out at all.
And Dallas gave us a draft pick. Amazing
Bertans lfgooooooo!!!!!!
Ya we also get a 2nd round pick lmao
GIVE THIS MAN THE KEYS TO THE CITY HE GOT BERTANS GONE TOO
The biggest fleece of all-time. LITERALLY!
WHY WOULD DALLAS DO THAT?! WHY ARE THEY SO NICE?!
they gave him away for an inefficient player and hall of fame brick machine - and none of them gonna get any better since they are even older than him. that's a steal for the wizards.
no one saying they won't fit the dallas system but it really doesn't matter lmao - both of them aren't going to be plus for their defense and overall dallas could've gotten much more for a player like Kristaps - Wizards robbed them.
WE IN THE WIZARDS BED TONIGHT BABY!!!!
WE DID IT! HE ACTUALLY PULLED IT OFF! BOTH DINWIDDIE AND BERTANS GONE!
This is wild, getting Porzingus for dinwiddie + bertans while getting a pick back?
Haven't been watching the mavs, so is the trick here that Porzingis is secretly washed/not that great, or did we fleece the mavs?
When was the last time wiz had a pf as good as him? Thats what im excited about.
West Coast teams are ran by people that do heavy drugs. It has to be. Teams shouldn't be allowed to make trades while not sober

[KillerLeft]

As someone else mentioned, if Dinwiddie was the prize, you probably should have taken the Dragic deal and then done a separate deal for Dinwiddie and tried to pocket the pick.  Sorry I forgot who posted that thought.

It was a combo of @"omahen" and @"Mavs2021", and I agree - good thinking.

---

from wizards reddit
NO WAY WE GOT PORZINGIS FOR DINWIDDIE WTF
AND WE LOST BERTANS LMAOOOOO
Like when your mom “loses” their kids annoying toy that flashes 15 colors and high pitched beeping
Must be my birthday
Lost? More like Dumped
Why did your team do this? I can't figure it out at all.
And Dallas gave us a draft pick. Amazing
Bertans lfgooooooo!!!!!!
Ya we also get a 2nd round pick lmao
GIVE THIS MAN THE KEYS TO THE CITY HE GOT BERTANS GONE TOO
The biggest fleece of all-time. LITERALLY!
WHY WOULD DALLAS DO THAT?! WHY ARE THEY SO NICE?!
they gave him away for an inefficient player and hall of fame brick machine - and none of them gonna get any better since they are even older than him. that's a steal for the wizards.
no one saying they won't fit the dallas system but it really doesn't matter lmao - both of them aren't going to be plus for their defense and overall dallas could've gotten much more for a player like Kristaps - Wizards robbed them.
WE IN THE WIZARDS BED TONIGHT BABY!!!!
WE DID IT! HE ACTUALLY PULLED IT OFF! BOTH DINWIDDIE AND BERTANS GONE!
This is wild, getting Porzingus for dinwiddie + bertans while getting a pick back?
Haven't been watching the mavs, so is the trick here that Porzingis is secretly washed/not that great, or did we fleece the mavs?
When was the last time wiz had a pf as good as him? Thats what im excited about.
West Coast teams are ran by people that do heavy drugs. It has to be. Teams shouldn't be allowed to make trades while not sober

Pretty much what our reaction was here, when we got Porzingis. Just saying.

[cow]

Pretty much what our reaction was here, when we got Porzingis. Just saying.

I think the excitement is less about KP and more about getting off of Dinwiddie and Bertans.  So a touch different.

[TXBamanut]

Bobby Marks on the Lowe Podcast said his sources told him Wednesday night that the deal looked to be Dragic, matching salaries, and a future 1st.   

start at the 44 minute mark:  Lowe Pod

Bobby Marks starts laughing trying to describe Dinwiddie and Bertans.  Cuban really thinks Dinwiddie and Bertans is better than expirings and a 1st rd pick.  It's GM malpractice.

That was stupid to turn that down, looking at what we actually got.  The truth is that Dallas may not have had the luxury...they may have been weighing options when Toronto went ahead and pulled the trigger...it's possible, but I'm being generous here.

And Dinwiddie and Bertans are not two rotation players...people need to take a step back and get some perspective.  Their glee of getting rid of KP is clouding their judgment.  They talked about Bertans on Windhorst's podcast this morning.  He got injured before the bubble, didn't play in the bubble, signed that big contract and then went home for months to Latvia...he showed up just in time for training camp and was a shell of himself...not the same player, fell out of rotation and has been riding the pine.  An instant buyer's remorse contract is what they called him.

Welcome to Nico Mellie 2.0, but I'm not sure he's as good.  I hope he's better, but I start to giggle every time I read "well, we've got rotation players'...no, you have the hope of one...it was a roll of the dice.

As far as Dragic and Dinwiddie go, it's a fair argument that we are going to be paying the LESSER of those two players for the next 3 years...smh  When we needed a vet that Luka would respect to help him make the next leap in Dragic, we got a guy that all his teammates in Washington couldn't stand and wanted him to leave.  Colossal mistake.

I really hope I'm wrong...I'll gladly eat that crow later, but right now...there is no joy in Mudville.

[KillerLeft]

I think the excitement is less about KP and more about getting off of Dinwiddie and Bertans.  So a touch different.

Fair.

But, those who are cautiously excited on our end now are much less excited about getting Dinwiddie and Bertans than they are about getting off of Porzingis. 

Lol, so I guess it's a wash.

[cow]

That was stupid to turn that down, looking at what we actually got.  The truth is that Dallas may not have had the luxury...they may have been weighing options when Toronto went ahead and pulled the trigger...it's possible, but I'm being generous here.

And Dinwiddie and Bertans are not two rotation players...people need to take a step back and get some perspective.  Their glee of getting rid of KP is clouding their judgment.  They talked about Bertans on Windhorst's podcast this morning.  He got injured before the bubble, didn't play in the bubble, signed that big contract and then went home for months to Latvia...he showed up just in time for training camp and was a shell of himself...not the same player, fell out of rotation and has been riding the pine.  An instant buyer's remorse contract is what they called him.

Welcome to Nico Mellie 2.0, but I'm not sure he's as good.  I hope he's better, but I start to giggle every time I read "well, we've got rotation players'...no, you have the hope of one...it was a roll of the dice.

As far as Dragic and Dinwiddie go, it's a fair argument that we are going to be paying the LESSER of those two players for the next 3 years...smh  When we needed a vet that Luka would respect to help him make the next leap in Dragic, we got a guy that all his teammates in Washington couldn't stand and wanted him to leave.  Colossal mistake.

I really hope I'm wrong...I'll gladly eat that crow later, but right now...there is no joy in Mudville.

Dinwiddie also hasn't looked right since his ACL surgery and we are now 13 months removed from that.  That's typically a 9 month injury.

Mellie to Bertans isn't a great comp.  Mellie could do everything but shoot.  Bertans can only shoot.