MAVS 132, BLAZERS 117

[omahen]

Of course, this begs the question...what kind of second star does fit with a player like Luka?  The best thing is to probably look at the other heliocentric guys and see what has/hasn't worked for them. 

You are building on a decision that Luka can/wants to only play heliocentric offense. However, Mavs haven't provided a single guy capable of creating so far. So, was the offense heliocentric because Luka wanted it or because there was really no other option? Brunson can handle the ball and we saw Luka didn't have a problem sharing it. Luka was playing next to a great PG both with the national team as well as in Real. I think Luka has no problem sharing the ball and responsibility with anyone actually capable to do it efficiently.

[fifteenth]

last night's game might be paraded as evidence of Mark's genius.

My caveman take:

A game where KP gets to play against a team with no center should not be held up as an example of much of anything, (warning this next part is true, but might possibly have troll intentions as well) anymore than the Cowboys destroying a team who had to play football a half a week before means that the offense is fixed.

[KillerLeft]

There are some among us who look at KP and believe he's the problem.  Where he likes the ball directly impacts Luka's effectiveness.  But, the stats say KP is a good player again.  Should we keep letting KP be KP even if it hurts Luka?  None of this is easy to deduce when only working with 11 games of data.  Shouldn't Luka and Kidd be expected to figure this all out since KP is clearly "back"?  Or, is there an overlap where one always cancels out the highest and best use of the other?

My position on KP has been that when he's good, he's too good to trade and when he's bad (or injured), he can't be traded because of the combination of salary and injury history.  We either need Kidd/Luka to figure this out or we need to move on from KP.  It is nice to have KP playing well because it at least gives you options.  I'm starting to rethink the first part of my position and looking for teams that might could use this version of KP.  I'm not confident we will ever get this version of KP alongside Luka the top-5 guy that he's been the last two seasons.

[david75090]

Personally, I've enjoyed these games more than earlier in the season. I prefer the passing and the less ball-dominance PG play. JB does that to a certain extent but he seems to be trying for a layup when he's doing that. I think I'd rather see Luka be more of a Larry Bird and less of a Magic Johnson. Luka as SF over Luka as PG. I like the ball movement. I think the rest of the team is more interested, energized and focused. As if they might get to play with the ball some, too. There's a place for the ball dominance, I just prefer it not be so 100%.

[fifteenth]

Pal, did you see this: https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=1099&pid=117161#pid117161 ?

[DanSchwartzgan]

You are building on a decision that Luka can/wants to only play heliocentric offense. However, Mavs haven't provided a single guy capable of creating so far. So, was the offense heliocentric because Luka wanted it or because there was really no other option? Brunson can handle the ball and we saw Luka didn't have a problem sharing it. Luka was playing next to a great PG both with the national team as well as in Real. I think Luka has no problem sharing the ball and responsibility with anyone actually capable to do it efficiently.

My post had nothing to do with what Luka wants or can do.  What he wants is immaterial.  He is what he is and it is a compliment to call him heliocentric and classify him as similar to Lebron, Kawhi and Harden.

The post also has nothing to do with sharing duties with another guard.  I agree he’s shown some willingness/ability to do that with Brunson.  The conversation that needs to be had is what kind of big would work well with Luka while also maximizing Luka’s abilities.

[dirkfansince1998]

My post had nothing to do with what Luka wants or can do.  What he wants is immaterial.  He is what he is and it is a compliment to call him heliocentric and classify him as similar to Lebron, Kawhi and Harden.

The post also has nothing to do with sharing duties with another guard.  I agree he’s shown some willingness/ability to do that with Brunson.  The conversation that needs to be had is what kind of big would work well with Luka while also maximizing Luka’s abilities.

Agree with the overall take but I wouldn´t include Kawhi among the heliocentric players. He never had the handles or passing vision to run an offense. Always had another high usage ballhandler next to him. I think high volume/efficiency iso scorers like Durant or Kawhi belong into another category.

[cow]

My position on KP has been that when he's good, he's too good to trade and when he's bad (or injured), he can't be traded because of the combination of salary and injury history.  We either need Kidd/Luka to figure this out or we need to move on from KP.  It is nice to have KP playing well because it at least gives you options.  I'm starting to rethink the first part of my position and looking for teams that might could use this version of KP.  I'm not confident we will ever get this version of KP alongside Luka the top-5 guy that he's been the last two seasons.

I'd argue foor any star player on your roster, there should never be a time when you willingly want to trade them.

[TXBamanut]

I'll say this... It was only a little over a decade ago where we drafted an up and coming improving PG and they used that guy as a centerpiece to a trade that brought the guy in that out the team over the top and won a championship.... So there's history.

The central player we traded in that trade:. Devin Harris
The player we brought in:. Jason Kidd
That team was farther along, but I'm just saying that they've had a really good playmaking young guard before that they have turned into a cornerstone.

I really didn't want them to trade Harris, for sentimental reasons mainly, but it turned out well.

Could this stretch really be upping Brunson's trade value to be the centrepiece of a trade that gets an impact player?

Possible.... I'll get Brunson, DFS and picks would get you a decent package.  Personally, I would be sad if they were traded, but it's a thought.

Brunson, THJ and....  I like Brunson and would love to see him stay, but if we are talking about the player with the most trade value, it actually might be him, more than KP.  Young guard, who's a winner, still improving, showing he can put up points and carry a team.

Me? I'd rather keep him and start him with Luka, but for that to work, Luka is going to have to be average to above average defensively.  Won't work if Luka keeps being lazy on D.

---

I'd argue foor any star player on your roster, there should never be a time when you willingly want to trade them.

I think this is extremely over simplified.  There are LOADS of star players in this league that people have wanted to trade.... There are plenty right now, much less in the history of the league.

[Scott41theMavs]

I assume this is tongue in cheek?  Cuban really isn't this stupid.  The most likely reason for this behavior is that they lost KP mentally last year and could not trade him for a bag of beans.  So the focus this year is to do everything they can to generate KP value (including protecting him from injury by playing another center and focusing the offense on him) in order to either trade him for something of value, or find a way that Luka/KP can work and both will be happy.  Maybe its working out that Luka is out with injury/Covid and KP can show off dominating Covid teams before the TDL.  I'm just not sure what they can get for him.  Would you do:

KP/Brunson for Poeltl/White?

I have been saying all season, KP/JB for Murray/Poeltl/Vassell. The return you put is too small for what we're sending out if we could have made a month ago. When you consider how the value of our two guys has grown over the past month, your proposal would be a grand fleece job by the Spurs. Nico has to be way the hell better than that. 

If we're 1) sending out KP and 2) talking to the Spurs, the necessary presumption for the talks to end in a trade is that they're sending out Murray. No consideration of a trade without that. All the moreso if we're sending Brunson. If KP and JB continue to trend as they are up until the trade deadline, then at that point the Spurs can send us that original package I proposed, plus their first this year. In all seriousness. 

I think it's great what Kidd is doing with KP. It has nothing whatsoever to do with KP's long-term tenure here (although the drooling incontinent moron known as Mark Cuban might see things otherwise). It has everything to do to raising his trade value to the point where something good comes back.

[cow]

I think this is extremely over simplified.  There are LOADS of star players in this league that people have wanted to trade.... There are plenty right now, much less in the history of the league.

I don't think so.  If the player wants out, sure?  If the team is looking for a rebuild and their star is on the wrong side of their 30s, sure.  Dame and Beal might get moved but given the option, their teams would prefer to keep them.  Further, my comment is more about IF KP is a star or not.

[mvossman]

I have been saying all season, KP/JB for Murray/Poeltl/Vassell. The return you put is too small for what we're sending out if we could have made a month ago. When you consider how the value of our two guys has grown over the past month, your proposal would be a grand fleece job by the Spurs. Nico has to be way the hell better than that. 

If we're 1) sending out KP and 2) talking to the Spurs, the necessary presumption for the talks to end in a trade is that they're sending out Murray. No consideration of a trade without that. All the moreso if we're sending Brunson. If KP and JB continue to trend as they are up until the trade deadline, then at that point the Spurs can send us that original package I proposed, plus their first this year. In all seriousness. 

I think it's great what Kidd is doing with KP. It has nothing whatsoever to do with KP's long-term tenure here (although the drooling incontinent moron known as Mark Cuban might see things otherwise). It has everything to do to raising his trade value to the point where something good comes back.

I think you are greatly overestimating the value of a KP/Brunson package.  If this is the kind of return we are looking for, we will never trade KP.

[Scott41theMavs]

I think you are greatly overestimating the value of a KP/Brunson package.  If this is the kind of return we are looking for, we will never trade KP.

I think you're grossly underestimating their current value. That's a secondary star and two roleplayers for a guy who can be a secondary star with the right fit next to him and a guy who has shown he can run an offense. If the team receiving Brunson believes they can re-sign him, that's a more than fair return. 

If KP can play like he is this year and be available upwards of 70% of the time, he has value for most any team, even at his contract. The biggest issue with him is fit with Luka.

Trading KP/JB for Poeltl and White would be a gross waste of assets, as well as getting torched on a trade.

[omahen]

My post had nothing to do with what Luka wants or can do.  What he wants is immaterial.  He is what he is and it is a compliment to call him heliocentric and classify him as similar to Lebron, Kawhi and Harden.

The post also has nothing to do with sharing duties with another guard.  I agree he’s shown some willingness/ability to do that with Brunson.  The conversation that needs to be had is what kind of big would work well with Luka while also maximizing Luka’s abilities.

I am sorry, but you started your argument with: "Of course, this begs the question...what kind of second star does fit with a player like Luka?  The best thing is to probably look at the other heliocentric guys and see what has/hasn't worked for them." which probably mislead me to discuss second stars and not bigs. As for the other part - as soon as you mention heliocentric it unfortunately has a lot to do with sharing the ball with other guards, even if you mean it in a complimentary way  . I think there are many ways to build around Luka, but his main strength is PnR and creating 4 on 3 opportunities for his teammates. Room in the paint is necessary to do this, but it doesn't mean the other guys are just standing around waiting to shoot the three. It is all about timely cuts when defense is watching Luka.

I think the Olympics showed a blueprint for ideal lineup with Luka. A PnR center who can hit from distance and three 3-D wings - the more they can do with the ball the better. Luka is constantly creating 4 on 3 opportunities and his teammates in the national team were able to greatly exploit those situations.  Using this line-up they were also capable of overcoming the defensive shortcommings of Luka and the center. That team was a lot of fun to watch even with really low talent level compared to some opponents (for example France). 

Mavs as they are they basically put the opposite on the floor. They are using Powell who is not really good as short roll center and the other three can't really do much with the ball (or hit a three so far this season). I think KP could fit extremely well with Luka, even with his post ups, if he would be used in a PnR and I think they showed this in their first season. I don't know why he is not used like this more and the reason is not really important. If he is not used in a PnR and his wish is to gravitate around the paint looking for the ball, than the pairing will probably not work. 

KP overtendency to gravitate around the paint could be seen nicely against Portland when Bobi checked in. Bobi is an elite post up player yet KP was still looking for the ball in the paint. Mavs couldn't get ball to Bobi. Part of it can be seen from the clip below, right at the beginning. Look how packed paint is. This was basically whole time Bobi was in. 

Video and Shotcharts | Stats | NBA.com

The other issue with current Mavs is their slow pace. Interesting enough, pace was even slower with Brunson and no Luka (at least before Portland game, I didn't check afterwards). It seems like whenever Luka is in, everyone is just standing and watching him, which was not the case everywhere else Luka played. For example in the national team, wings were pushing the ball and the overall tempo was very fast. 

I think KP has all the tools needed to work greatly next to Luka and the adjustments would be needed elsewhere. I also don't think his value is high enough to get something good in return. Cuts he is doing are great but they are not timely - I guess this can improve. They can survive with a couple of post-ups here and there if he needs that to be happy. But the core should be to put them in the PnR.

I think it is more important to unclogg the paint by removing the non-shooting big. It will take way more than two games to convince me Powell-KP is something that works. Upgrade one wing spot with someone that can do something with ball and is a reliable scorer and I think this team would look very very good.

[Chicagojk]

I wonder what the market is for Dame Lillard.   I am behind on my podcasts and I was listening to a Zach Lowe podcast from a few weeks ago.   He brought up the question that he asked other teams of when it is time to be worried about Dame.   The answer he got was now.   He said this probably doesn't include Philly.

Portland has a lot of free agents and is really a team in transition.   They may also want to do well for Dame if he is moved.  That doesn't mean they will take a deep discount but this could limit the number of teams would would be targets.

But who could be some of these teams?   This summer the thinking was the Knicks could have a competitive offer.  That offer does not look as strong now.    Would Golden State offer their young players for another high usage player?   To be honest, I think the answer would be no at this point.   Would replacing Dame with Simmons and picks really put Portland in a better spot?  Would Boston include Jaylon Brown?  I probably would not and try to improve my talent around Tatum and Brown instead.   Would Dame really want to go to New Orleans?   That just seems like a team Dame would tell Portland he would prefer to go somewhere else.    

Is there a team in hiding?  Typically I go back to Miami but with their moves for Lowry this offseason, they are out of the picture.   

It is likely that  both Dame and Bradley Beal may hit the market.  But both have been down this year so far.   Beal is expecting a super max.   It will be interesting to see if teams go in with A Plus offers.   I think it is a sellers market but for the top tier guys the demand may be a little more tricky.

[omahen]

I wonder what the market is for Dame Lillard.   I am behind on my podcasts and I was listening to a Zach Lowe podcast from a few weeks ago.   He brought up the question that he asked other teams of when it is time to be worried about Dame.   The answer he got was now.   He said this probably doesn't include Philly.

Portland has a lot of free agents and is really a team in transition.   They may also want to do well for Dame if he is moved.  That doesn't mean they will take a deep discount but this could limit the number of teams would would be targets.

But who could be some of these teams?   This summer the thinking was the Knicks could have a competitive offer.  That offer does not look as strong now.    Would Golden State offer their young players for another high usage player?   To be honest, I think the answer would be no at this point.   Would replacing Dame with Simmons and picks really put Portland in a better spot?  Would Boston include Jaylon Brown?  I probably would not and try to improve my talent around Tatum and Brown instead.   Would Dame really want to go to New Orleans?   That just seems like a team Dame would tell Portland he would prefer to go somewhere else.    

Is there a team in hiding?  Typically I go back to Miami but with their moves for Lowry this offseason, they are out of the picture.   

It is likely that  both Dame and Bradley Beal may hit the market.  But both have been down this year so far.   Beal is expecting a super max.   It will be interesting to see if teams go in with A Plus offers.   I think it is a sellers market but for the top tier guys the demand may be a little more tricky.

I think the market is pretty strange and I am not sure if it was always like this. Picks are extremely concentrated in a couple of teams that all play like crap - OKC, NO, Houston. Most of current contenders are basically left without assets as Milwaukee, LAC, LAL, Denver, BKN, Mia and Utah all went all in in last couple of years. However, there are a few teams in a very good position both from cap space perspective as well as assets and they are the ones to have a look for a superstar trade, imho: Atlanta, Phoenix, Philadelphia, Boston, GSW and Memphis. Perhaps also Cleveland, if they can continue the current excellent performances. 

As for Lillard, I think most suitable destinations for all parties involved would be Philly (Portland can involve a third team for Simmons and get a bunch of assets) and Memphis. 
Atlanta has Young (Beal would be a target for them), 
Phoenix has CP3 and it would be really cold if they would trade him for Lillard (I doubt the on-court fit of Lillard, CP3 and Booker)
Boston doesn't really have good enough assets outside of Brown/Tatum. But perhaps they don't like eachoter and it would make sense to move one. 
I agree with you on GSW. 

As for Dallas, I think we will have perfectly good position regarding available picks on draft night. Three first rounders and 3 swaps. What we lack is interesting young talent with high ceiling. But if you are good in relationships, even that would be ok. BKN got Harden for basically three first round picks and four swaps, while players were nothing really special and Houston rejected best ones (Allen, LeVert) for some reason.

[DanSchwartzgan]

 
I think KP could fit extremely well with Luka, even with his post ups, if he would be used in a PnR and I think they showed this in their first season. I don't know why he is not used like this more and the reason is not really important. If he is not used in a PnR and his wish is to gravitate around the paint looking for the ball, than the pairing will probably not work. 

KP overtendency to gravitate around the paint could be seen nicely against Portland when Bobi checked in. Bobi is an elite post up player yet KP was still looking for the ball in the paint. Mavs couldn't get ball to Bobi. 
 

This is really the thing that matters.  Heliocentric (or not) is really a side show to the more important discussion.  The question of whether there should there be another shot creating guard (yes, there should be) is also a side show.  Job number one to me is figuring out KP or alternatively what kind of big would best fit with Luka.  Of course, then you have to find that guy and figure out how to get him here.

I'm not sure saying "if" this guy would just do "this" is all that helpful.  Indiana has been waiting for years for Turner to develop as a rim roller.  He just doesn't do it for whatever reason.  Same with me and Elizabeth Hurley.  "If" I could lose 30 pounds, she might be interested in me.  Yet, armed with that fact, I'm still 30 pounds too heavy.  Go figure.

[omahen]

This is really the thing that matters.  Heliocentric (or not) is really a side show to the more important discussion.  The question of whether there should there be another shot creating guard (yes, there should be) is also a side show.  Job number one to me is figuring out KP or alternatively what kind of big would best fit with Luka.  Of course, then you have to find that guy and figure out how to get him here.

I'm not sure saying "if" this guy would just do "this" is all that helpful.  Indiana has been waiting for years for Turner to develop as a rim roller.  He just doesn't do it for whatever reason.  Same with me and Elizabeth Hurley.  "If" I could lose 30 pounds, she might be interested in me.  Yet, armed with that fact, I'm still 30 pounds too heavy.  Go figure.

Player number 1 that comes to my mind as ideal center partner for Luka was Collins. He is however probably too small for a center. After a bit more thinking - Cristian Wood.

Edit: Ayton could also be very interesting ideal option

Edit 2: Another solution is to spend assets elsewhere and use a cheap rim rolling center. Powell could be just fine.

[cow]

I wonder what the market is for Dame Lillard.   I am behind on my podcasts and I was listening to a Zach Lowe podcast from a few weeks ago.   He brought up the question that he asked other teams of when it is time to be worried about Dame.   The answer he got was now.   He said this probably doesn't include Philly.

Portland has a lot of free agents and is really a team in transition.   They may also want to do well for Dame if he is moved.  That doesn't mean they will take a deep discount but this could limit the number of teams would would be targets.

But who could be some of these teams?   This summer the thinking was the Knicks could have a competitive offer.  That offer does not look as strong now.    Would Golden State offer their young players for another high usage player?   To be honest, I think the answer would be no at this point.   Would replacing Dame with Simmons and picks really put Portland in a better spot?  Would Boston include Jaylon Brown?  I probably would not and try to improve my talent around Tatum and Brown instead.   Would Dame really want to go to New Orleans?   That just seems like a team Dame would tell Portland he would prefer to go somewhere else.    

Is there a team in hiding?  Typically I go back to Miami but with their moves for Lowry this offseason, they are out of the picture.   

It is likely that  both Dame and Bradley Beal may hit the market.  But both have been down this year so far.   Beal is expecting a super max.   It will be interesting to see if teams go in with A Plus offers.   I think it is a sellers market but for the top tier guys the demand may be a little more tricky.

I think if Dame and Portland part ways, within reason, Portland will do him a solid and send him wherever he wants to go.  And if Dame does decide it is time to go, he'll want to go to a legitimate contender.  I still think the Lakers are an interesting trade partner in that they'll try to maximize LeBron's closing championship window and are over a barrel with Westbrook.  If I'm going to go into a rebuild, I'd take Westbrook to lead the tank and getting multiple future first rounders from the Lakers could be pretty valuable.  '27 and '29 is a long way away and a gamble if they are able to successfully and quickly retool from the LeBron/AD/Dame era.  You could also take THT and flip him pretty easily for another FRP.

[omahen]

I think if Dame and Portland part ways, within reason, Portland will do him a solid and send him wherever he wants to go.  And if Dame does decide it is time to go, he'll want to go to a legitimate contender.  I still think the Lakers are an interesting trade partner in that they'll try to maximize LeBron's closing championship window and are over a barrel with Westbrook.  If I'm going to go into a rebuild, I'd take Westbrook to lead the tank and getting multiple future first rounders from the Lakers could be pretty valuable.  '27 and '29 is a long way away and a gamble if they are able to successfully and quickly retool from the LeBron/AD/Dame era.  You could also take THT and flip him pretty easily for another FRP.

How do Lakers get Dame while sending all the remaining assets to Dallas to take Westbrook?