MAVS 132, BLAZERS 117

[fifteenth]

Last night's game might be the poster child for Cuban's coming position that, as the smartest guy in the room, he always knew that KP was the guy to build around, not Luka.

Of all the crazy takes that Crazy Cakes Mark has spouted over the years, including that "HE read the CBA, and so...", this would be the craziest. 

If he really did ever set a course based on believing that he should build around KP instead of Luka, I think my little 35 year long Mavs hobby (obsession) would come to an end. 

Surely he's not that dumb. <--- is that the Everyman rhetorical device? :-D

[mavsluvr]

Of all the crazy takes that Crazy Cakes Mark has spouted over the years, including that "HE read the CBA, and so...", this would be the craziest. 

If he really did ever set a course based on believing that he should build around KP instead of Luka, I think my little 35 year long Mavs hobby (obsession) would come to an end. 

Surely he's not that dumb. <--- is that the Everyman rhetorical device? :-D

Iztok has a comment today about how much effort Kidd has put into increasing KP's confidence, and how it's paying off, with KP looking much more comfortable on the block. He illustrates some of the ATO and quarter-starting plays they use for the benefit of KP. 

All this, while insisting on organizing a KP-centric offense that Luka doesn't want to run. 

Coinkydink? I think not.

[mvossman]

The basis of me being in "trade-KP" camp is that Luka and him don't play naturally well together. If you are building around Luka you need to trade KP no matter how well he starts playing in his own right IMO.

I'm not convinced of this yet.  In the last two years the starting lineups (and 5 man minutes leaders) were +11 and +13.  That is elite.  Last year only the Clippers starting lineup was higher.  That was a year with a struggling KP and JRich in the starting lineup.  

This year Kidd is trying to combine a more versatile KP with Luka.  The early results have been a disaster, but I'm not sure how much of that is Luka playing like crap in general, Kidd burdening them with another center in the lineup, and none of the shooters being able to shoot.  Also, due to injuries/Covid they have only played 15 games together so far.

I don't know if Kidd can make it work.  I don't know why they have not played more P&R through 2 plus years and 2 coaches.  I don't think the two center plan is necessary or productive.  But it does look like last year was just a bad year for KP and not the start of a permanent decline.  If Kidd can manage to get last years Luka and this years KP to play together we might have something worth holding on to.

The other side of this is what is point of trading KP now?  My assumption is that we would be simply dumping him for air (expiring).  That does not get us any cap space unless we take a hatchet to the rest of the roster.  And then what?  This upcoming free agency class is meager at best.  The only real value that gains us is avoiding the tax, but if you want to do that and don't want to trade Brunson for asset(s), then dumping THJ makes more sense than KP (and probably easier to do).  I don't think we are going to get value out of dumping his cap space until 2023 offseason in a year and half from now.

This all presupposes we can't get value in a KP trade.  Obviously if we can get something back, it depends on what that is.  I just don't see him worth more than expiring contracts right now and there is not a lot of point in pulling that trigger.

[fifteenth]

Iztok has a comment today about how much effort Kidd has put into increasing KP's confidence, and how it's paying off, with KP looking much more comfortable on the block. He illustrates some of the ATO and quarter-starting plays they use for the benefit of KP. 

All this, while insisting on organizing a KP-centric offense that Luka doesn't want to run. 

Coinkydink? I think not.

I'm just caveman. I don't understand your "basketball." I fell into some ice and your scientists found me and thawed me out. But I do think this...

JKidd MIGHT be focusing on rehabbing KP because KP needed to be rehabbed, whether for trade or for the Mavs to be a good basketball team with KP on the floor. Luka on the other hand is and will be great. My guess is that the Team thinks Luka is the constant, is already on track to be a generational player, and that Luka and his future can handle a few months of effort focused on getting KP right (not just right statistically, but right in his head).

[StepBackJay]

I´m pretty confident you can get Gary Harris or Jeremy Lamb for THJ with the old Mavs connections and those teams lack of FA options.

Yes to either. Harris might be the easiest to pull off.

[fifteenth]

I'm not convinced of this yet. 

This is super fair! 

We argue "in the moment' a lot around here. It's hard not to. And "in the moment" takes do turn out to be accurate at times. But there are times when a project needs more time. The JKidd, Luka, KP project MIGHT just need more time. 

I don't know if I have hope for that, or not. But I recognize it as a possibility.

[hakeemfaan]

Cato had an interesting slant in today's article on this. --

Tim puts a lot of blame for the Mavericks' lifeless offense on THJ, Bullock, and Maxi -- players he refers to as below-average passers who hesitate too long when windows emerge. He acknowledges that this keeps turnovers low, which was a fundamental for Carlisle, but it comes at the cost of having to repeatedly recycle possessions. 

Tim didn't want to make the discussion about Luka's conditioning issues, which he thinks have already been talked to death, but adds that Luka's lack of enthusiasm for the system is part of the problem. He suggests that these four players have not bought into Kidd's offense, and the result has been a "mushy" approach where Luka wants to run pick-and-rolls "until the icecap melts," while KP tries to post up directly in his path. 

He realizes that the more fundamental problem is the roster's lack of talent, rather than the coaching schemes. He doesn't suggest that Green, Frankie, Mo, and the emergency guys are any kind of real answer to that issue. He also doesn't suggest that Kidd's system (which is not all that different than Carlisle's) will necessarily make the team better. But he does suggest that this COVID interlude has given us a window into just how stagnant the Mavs offense has become, and what types of players might be helpful in changing it.

I will not put Green in the retread category. This was a relatively high first round choice who has not played much even in college. Give him some time before we just categorize  him as a retread . Whenever he has been on the court he has played tough man on man defense. That by itself should get him more minutes on this squad.   He is long, physical, can play defense. Yes what he did yesterday was against a depleted Blazers team but we are depleted as well. If it were a Blazers pick dropping 10 dimes on us we would have bemoaned how other teams keep finding talented youngsters.  So why just dismiss it when one of our bench players does it?  Some of the passes he made were really good and not just an extra pass because their defense played poorly. 

I am not giving up on Frank N either. I have always felt that the Knicks were the wrong team for him since he was so raw and expectations were so high given his draft position. While I like Moses and some others, Frank and Josh are to me guys who do a little bit of everything apart from being a real force on defense. This team that has too many one dimensional players or overrated defensive players should be finding every opportunity to see how to give them both more minutes.

[fifteenth]

I don't know if Kidd can make it work.  I don't know why they have not played more P&R through 2 plus years and 2 coaches.  I don't think the two center plan is necessary or productive.  But it does look like last year was just a bad year for KP and not the start of a permanent decline.  If Kidd can manage to get last years Luka and this years KP to play together we might have something worth holding on to.

Man, the bolded text above is the question of KP's career here, imo!

Does KP not like it? Does being a pnr partner risk KP's health too much? Does JKidd want to keep the Luka/KP pnr under wraps as a secret weapon, to eventually be deployed during important 4th quarters and/or playoff games?

[SleepingHero]

Man, the bolded text above is the question of KP's career here, imo!

Does KP not like it? Does being a pnr partner risk KP's health too much? Does JKidd want to keep the Luka/KP pnr under wraps as a secret weapon, to eventually be deployed during important 4th quarters and/or playoff games?

I truly think the Mavs need to get a coach on the floor type of player to get a higher frequency of these plays.

I'm sure both RC and Kidd would like Luka and KP to run more of a two man game, but it's easy to get lost running other things in the heat of a game.

Thats why I think getting Goran or Rubio would be huge here because they are one of the few remaining heady PG's left.

[fifteenth]

I truly think the Mavs need to get a coach on the floor type of player to get a higher frequency of these plays.

I'm sure both RC and Kidd would like Luka and KP to run more of a two man game, but it's easy to get lost running other things in the heat of a game.

Thats why I think getting Goran or Rubio would be huge here because they are one of the few remaining heady PG's left.

Is a coach standing up and callling out a play just not a thing these days?

[mvossman]

Iztok has a comment today about how much effort Kidd has put into increasing KP's confidence, and how it's paying off, with KP looking much more comfortable on the block. He illustrates some of the ATO and quarter-starting plays they use for the benefit of KP. 

All this, while insisting on organizing a KP-centric offense that Luka doesn't want to run. 

Coinkydink? I think not.

I assume this is tongue in cheek?  Cuban really isn't this stupid.  The most likely reason for this behavior is that they lost KP mentally last year and could not trade him for a bag of beans.  So the focus this year is to do everything they can to generate KP value (including protecting him from injury by playing another center and focusing the offense on him) in order to either trade him for something of value, or find a way that Luka/KP can work and both will be happy.  Maybe its working out that Luka is out with injury/Covid and KP can show off dominating Covid teams before the TDL.  I'm just not sure what they can get for him.  Would you do:

KP/Brunson for Poeltl/White?

[SleepingHero]

Is a coach standing up and callling out a play just not a thing these days?

It is. We see Kidd do it. But still there is no replacement to having an actual player on the court to control the flow of the game and get guys in their rhythm.

Luka is about as good of a set-up man that I've seen, but he does seem to lack that internal clock to get guys their shots. Rubio/Dragic have that.

We've been spoiled for the last 20 years since we had Nash and Kidd run the show who were some of the best ever set up guys that knew how to get others going.

[mavsluvr]

I'm just caveman. I don't understand your "basketball." I fell into some ice and your scientists found me and thawed me out. But I do think this...

JKidd MIGHT be focusing on rehabbing KP because KP needed to be rehabbed, whether for trade or for the Mavs to be a good basketball team with KP on the floor. Luka on the other hand is and will be great. My guess is that the Team thinks Luka is the constant, is already on track to be a generational player, and that Luka and his future can handle a few months of effort focused on getting KP right (not just right statistically, but right in his head).

Ah, Everyman appears in a caveman costume! 

"I'm just your ordinary Joe, I don't understand stuff like 'basketball,' I just fell out of the ice, but here's what I have picked up fighting my way through the snows." 

Good job! I like it!

[fifteenth]

Ah, Everyman appears in a caveman costume! 

"I'm just your ordinary Joe, I don't understand stuff like 'basketball,' I just fell out of the ice, but here's what I have picked up fighting my way through the snows." 

Good job! I like it!

Thanks 

Also, I really do think that JKidd is focussing on KP to rehab him because he thinks that's a big need for the Mavs, and that he's not doing it because he sees KP as THE ONE to build around.

[Fuerza1]

He can't take great defenders (like Jrue Holiday) nor can he beat double teams the way Luka can.  So, as many have said, high floor, but limited ceiling.

Even so, he dropped 10 points on 4/7 shooting to go along with 5 assists on Jrue Holiday without any viable 2nd option. 

Compare that to Jayson Tatum who shot 2/7 with 8 points, zero assists; or Jaylen Brown's 2/6 with 7 points, 2 assists while being guarded by Jrue Holiday the following game.

[DanSchwartzgan]

The basis of me being in "trade-KP" camp is that Luka and him don't play naturally well together. If you are building around Luka you need to trade KP no matter how well he starts playing in his own right IMO.

Of course, this begs the question...what kind of second star does fit with a player like Luka?  The best thing is to probably look at the other heliocentric guys and see what has/hasn't worked for them.  

Houston tried its version with just Harden, a very good PNR center and some shooters.  I don't believe that alone will ever carry us to a championship.  Duplication (CP3 and Westbrook) didn't work out either.  KD and Harden might work, but I'm not sure how to replicate KD here.  

Kawhi had pick and pop centers who could defend and rebound when he won a championship in Toronto.  He also had ball handling guards in Lowry and FVV.  But the second highest scorer on the team that year was Siakam.  He's not a great three point shooter, but like KD, he creates a huge percentage of his shots for himself.  He can create his own, but you can't ignore him when someone else has the ball or he will back door you to death.

Lebron has had Davis, Love and Bosh as championship front-court mates (and some help from pretty good guards on some of those teams).  The common thread between Davis, Love and Bosh is all were able to create for themselves.

Some of those guys can hit 3's.  Some can't.  The main thing seems to be that they be able to thrive with the ball and without the ball.  In theory KP should work without the ball as he provides great spacing.  The issue is when KP has the ball he is where Luka wants to go and he can't create that shot, he has to be set up for that shot.  I think KP can work with more of a perimeter oriented ball handler than Luka.  I can see Curry/KP or Lillard/KP.  FVV/KP?

[fifteenth]

Lebron has had Davis, Love and Bosh as championship front-court mates (and some help from pretty good guards on some of those teams).  The common thread between Davis, Love and Bosh is all were able to create for themselves.

Lebron might be the best comparison. His best partners might have been DWade and Irving. I like the idea of helocentric Luka not being the only thing that the Mavs do.

[ClutchDirk]

I love it when a player goes out and shows the Coach who commented on it that he has more tools in his toolbox..

Even better when that player is someone you have hyped lol...court looks better when there is more Green on it....

[mvossman]

Of course, this begs the question...what kind of second star does fit with a player like Luka?  The best thing is to probably look at the other heliocentric guys and see what has/hasn't worked for them.  

Houston tried its version with just Harden, a very good PNR center and some shooters.  I don't believe that alone will ever carry us to a championship.  Duplication (CP3 and Westbrook) didn't work out either.  KD and Harden might work, but I'm not sure how to replicate KD here.  

Kawhi had pick and pop centers who could defend and rebound when he won a championship in Toronto.  He also had ball handling guards in Lowry and FVV.  But the second highest scorer on the team that year was Siakam.  He's not a great three point shooter, but like KD, he creates a huge percentage of his shots for himself.  He can create his own, but you can't ignore him when someone else has the ball or he will back door you to death.

Lebron has had Davis, Love and Bosh as championship front-court mates (and some help from pretty good guards on some of those teams).  The common thread between Davis, Love and Bosh is all were able to create for themselves.

Some of those guys can hit 3's.  Some can't.  The main thing seems to be that they be able to thrive with the ball and without the ball.  In theory KP should work without the ball as he provides great spacing.  The issue is when KP has the ball he is where Luka wants to go and he can't create that shot, he has to be set up for that shot.  I think KP can work with more of a perimeter oriented ball handler than Luka.  I can see Curry/KP or Lillard/KP.  FVV/KP?

So McCullum/Nurkic for KP/Brunson?

[mavsluvr]

Iztok has a comment today about how much effort Kidd has put into increasing KP's confidence, and how it's paying off, with KP looking much more comfortable on the block. He illustrates some of the ATO and quarter-starting plays they use for the benefit of KP. 

All this, while insisting on organizing a KP-centric offense that Luka doesn't want to run. 

Coinkydink? I think not.


I assume this is tongue in cheek?  Cuban really isn't this stupid.

Well, maybe I really thought Cuban wants to build around KP, and maybe I didn't. Given Cuban's apparent desire to be seen as the guy with the secret insight that no one else has, I actually don't think it's completely out of the question. 


I think the gigantic effort to organize around KP, even to the extent of running systems that limit Luka's effectiveness, is curious, to say the least. Regardless of what Cuban really thinks now, I can almost guarantee that, if Luka decides he has had enough of this foolishness and bails, the "I knew it all along" take will be the line. Cubes always understood that KP was the real drink-stirrer, and last night's game might be paraded as evidence of Mark's genius. Out of 100 possible outcomes, I think it's among the scenarios.