BRUNSON BURNER: to NYK for 4yrs/$104M (no SnT) | NYK docked 2025 2nd for tampering

[DallasMaverick]

This is an interesting quote. Based on it. Would you hire Kidd, who didn't really have coaching success before?  

Regarding KP return and Mavs results. There were numerous factors that lead to increased success, imho, that happened around same time, so it is very difficult to pinpoint this to just the KP move:
- Luka was getting in form (was also injured in the first part of the season, which had a factor in success)
- they stopped playing the "makes no sense" two center rotations, that looked horrible
- shooting started to improve, everyone was shooting horrible in the first part of the season
- THJ injury also contributed to better balanced lineups by placing more defensively oriented players next to Luka

I still claim KP return was bad. We can all see that supposed "increased flexibility" that was mentioned so many times as main reason for the trade by Mavs themselves, didn't really bring any benefit. If Dinwiddie is the guy they wanted, he was a FA in 2021. With a little creativity they could sign him and probably be also be able to keep THJ and bring Bullock. Everyone knew Mavs badly needed another creator in 2021. Mavs included, since they targeted Lowry.

I think sleeping on last year success is the last thing we should do. It was great, but it was an one time thing since 2011. I am far more concerned by the obvious low success rate in nailing the transfer windows (summers and TDLs). I will just point out the big picture how I see it:
2018: Luka draft - could took 20 mil of Bazemore (I think expiring at the time) but rather gave up the pick
2019: had possibility for max cap space, targeted Kemba and lost. Didn't bring in anything (paid to get rid off Wright a year later) and didn't use cap space for assets. 
2020: huge miss in key draft
2021: another max space possibility, targeted Lowry and missed. Improved around the edges.
2022: Lost second best player for nothing, didn't replace the ballhandling lost and didn't bring in the hugely needed wing. They did improve at center.
overall: with all those misses, Mavs totally failed in acquiring any top end talent or assets and we are constantly hearing how they lack the ammo for trade. Roster is also getting old as all key players enter their thirties this season. 

I think it is fair to say that FO is not doing a good job, to put it mildly. I think the success is mainly coming from improvement of some key players (Luka, Brunson and DFS) and not from good work done by the FO. It pains me to watch how Atlanta, Phoenix, Denver, Boston are building around their stars and how smart franchises like Toronto or Memphis are run. Dallas is no where near in that regard.


To end, here is the West picture as it looks now (in order from last regular season): 
1. Phoenix: same team, all picks available
2. Memphis: same team, a bunch of young guys added, all picks available
3. GSW: same team, young ones (Wiseman, Moody, Kuminga) might improve, 2 picks available
4. Dallas: same at best, 2 draft picks available
5. Utah: imploded
6. Denver: moves around the edges, Murray and MPJ will likely return, no picks
7. Minnesota: added Gobert, no picks
8. Pelicans: Zion will likely return, added McCullom at TDL, all picks
9. Clippers: Kawhi likely returns, added Powell and RoCo at TDL to already stacked team
10. Spurs: tanking
11. Lakers: on verge of imploding
12. Sacramento: got what seems like good pick, but likely not much better
13. Portland: will likely be better, but not by much
14. OKC: tanking
15. Houston: tanking

So basically, Utah is out and Denver, Minny, Pels and Clippers are likely better. Phoenix, Memphis and GSW all have much better assets than Dallas to further improve team if they want to.

So, based on this assessment, you're saying maybe Dallas is a play-in team?

[omahen]

So, based on this assessment, you're saying maybe Dallas is a play-in team?

I am saying Dallas didn't improve and has weak chances to improve in the future compared to competition. Teams in front of Dallas stayed the same and several other teams that were just a bit behind Dallas last season improved significantly. I am saying, Mavs are not able to build a contender.

[Hypermav]

11. Lakers: on verge of imploding

They got Montrez. woot


I think the Mavs will have a good regular season record because they will bring it most every night.  (except when they play the Knicks and Thunder)  Maybe Dallas gets excited for the Knicks with JB there now.

I think 4,5 or 6 is solid for them with health.  Our guys will outlast Zion for example.

[mvossman]

I am saying Dallas didn't improve and has weak chances to improve in the future compared to competition. Teams in front of Dallas stayed the same and several other teams that were just a bit behind Dallas last season improved significantly. I am saying, Mavs are not able to build a contender.

While I agree with your general assessment of this FO incompetence since the Luka draft, I think your outlook is a little pessimistic.  Looking at some of the teams on your list:

Suns: I don't think Booker can lead a team by himself and Pual is running into father time.  Add a disgruntled Ayton on his max and I don't think this team has long term staying power as a contender

Warriors: Given the injury history and age, it is a minor miracle their big three stayed healthy throughout the playoffs.  That may never happen again, and now Draymond is looking for his max.  

Clippers: This team is getting old across the board and you have to wonder about Kawhi's long term health.  They might have one ring in them if they can stay healthy.

When I look at the future landscape in Luka's prime years, I see Memphis and Dallas (if we don't continue to completely screw it up) as the most likely contenders, and maybe Denver if they can stay healthy (that's a big if).  Memphis has definitely built a better team around Morant, but I think Luka will always be the better player.  Lets also not forget that for all the mistakes this FO has made, the single most important decision in last 5 years in the NBA was the Luka trade, and that was with Memphis ahead of us in the draft order.

In less than a year we will have access to all of our picks and plenty of salary filling contracts for a big trade.  That should be enough to land a top 40 player, which is all I think we need next to Luka along with a group of quality role players to be a contender.  We completely screwed this up with KP, and I think we have one more chance to get it right.

[Hooper21]

Just saying that the Mavs would've almost have had to go to 30+ mil in order to keep Brunson, not 26 that he got from NYK. 

Brunson wanted the Mavs to beat the Knicks offer. They refused. 

Be realistic, is Brunson a 30 mil a year player EVER? No. Thus keeping Brunson was never a realistic possibility. I never thought he would've been so money driven and was totally for resigning Brunson to a deal that even crossed 5/125-130. Then I sobered up and remembered that Brunson got outplayed in the Warriors and for half of that PHX series.

My guess on Brunson is that after the window for the extension closed, he knew he was shopped on the trade market.  He says he wanted to be in Dallas, but even if he resigned for an amount bigger than the extension amount, he knew it was likely that he would be traded somewhere he didn't want to be.  So, he signed a big $$ contract in NY, where he wanted to be, where his Dad works, and where he probably won't be traded.

[cow]

I tracked with you pretty well up to this paragraph (though I doubt you are seriously advocating a SA style tear down while you have a generational talent you are trying to keep happy).

I will point out though that you are telling me that something that actually happened (WCF's appearance) can't be used to validate a positive view because of something that will never happen and can't be proven (Luka and his national team scrubs would find NBA success).  

Success absolutely validates a positive outlook when the outcome is known.  It might not prove (yet) we can be a good team even after losing Brunson for nothing.  But success definitely proved wrong those opposed to the Kidd hire.  And, those who thought the return we got in the KP trade was horrible were wrong too.  How do I know?  A dramatic turnaround in performance validated by a level of team success not approached prior to said trade.  One of the rules I use when hiring people is if you want to find people who will be successful in the future, find success in their past.  Success is a pattern and we are on a better roll right now than some want to give credit for.

Not what I'm saying.  You can have positive view of any team no matter their success level.  We are fans after all.  Using a WCF appearance as the sole measuring stick for roster construction and improvement to prior year(s) would discount other factors (competition, improvement of existing players, etc.). 

Was the team more successful this year?  Sure.  is the team head and shoulders better than the previous year(s) based only on that WCF run.  Not in my view.  Not facing the Clippers helped.  Jalen and Luka being better versions from the previous year helped.  Bullock helped so that's a plus for roster improvement.  I'd argue the TDL trade didn't have much impact in the playoffs.  Dinwiddie was great in the regular seeding and certainly helped get our seeding.  I'm not sure how to grade that honestly.  

We took a step forward this year, certainly.  Does our offseason so far seem like we've taken another step forward?  The hopeful part of me would say we went sideways but I can also see us sliding backwards.  

I also don't think we are on a roll of success.  Luka is going to keep the floor of this time pretty dang high.  This past season was the outlier. Repeat the success again and we can say we are on a roll.

[WildArkieBoy]

Another view:  Dallas replaced a 6'1" offense facilitator in JB with a 6'9" offense facilitator in CW, added a "serviceable" center in JMc, anticipates more production from a healed THJ, progression from JG and FN and anything it can get from JH.

Perhaps the improvement is not "leaps and bounds," but, from this vantage, it's not "sideways' either.

ps: The above does not minimize or negate the need for a 3rd ball handler.  Does Derrick Rose's personal history disqualify him for that role?

[mvossman]

Another view:  Dallas replaced a 6'1" offense facilitator in JB with a 6'9" offense facilitator in CW, added a "serviceable" center in JMc, anticipates more production from a healed THJ, progression from JG and FN and anything it can get from JH.

Perhaps the improvement is not "leaps and bounds," but, from this vantage, it's not "sideways' either.

ps: The above does not minimize or negate the need for a 3rd ball handler.  Does Derrick Rose's personal history disqualify him for that role?

Don't want to bog down into semantics, but I don't really think of Wood as a facilitator.  He is a good offensive player, but not much of a facilitator based on his 2 assists and 2 turnovers a game.

I also struggle with the argument that we will have a healthy Timmy.  He was on the team last year.  Guys get injured.  It can very easily be somebody else next season.

I'm not sure its anything better than sideways, especially if we don't address the third ball hander issue.

[cow]

Another view:  Dallas replaced a 6'1" offense facilitator in JB with a 6'9" offense facilitator in CW, added a "serviceable" center in JMc, anticipates more production from a healed THJ, progression from JG and FN and anything it can get from JH.

Perhaps the improvement is not "leaps and bounds," but, from this vantage, it's not "sideways' either.

ps: The above does not minimize or negate the need for a 3rd ball handler.  Does Derrick Rose's personal history disqualify him for that role?

All of those things you listed could have been made while retaining Jalen and certainly losing Jalen is a step backwards.  That's why I landed on sideways.

[MFFL]

and where he probably won't be traded.

That is pretty optimistic. The Knicks dump players VERY quickly if they don't work out - all the players they dumped for Brunson were acquired in the last few years

Plus there is a regime change in Knick-land regularly. The GM and coaches are usually ousted within the next couple of years.

[DallasMaverick]

Hi.  I'm new to the board, but really enjoy wallowing in regret, finding fault, and holding grudges.

Is this the right thread for me?

[Hypermav]

Hi.  I'm new to the board, but really enjoy wallowing in regret, finding fault, and holding grudges.

Is this the right thread for me?

Any old thread should suffice.

[SkenfromLMF]

"DallasMaverick

Hi.  I'm new to the board, but really enjoy wallowing in regret, finding fault, and holding grudges.

Is this the right thread for me?"

[omahen]

Hi.  I'm new to the board, but really enjoy wallowing in regret, finding fault, and holding grudges.

Is this the right thread for me?

The first thing in getting better is to acknowledge that you are not working well. I don't think Mavs acknowledge that and that is why they never improve.  Similarly a lot of fans find excuses every time for why the window was not bad and are dissapointed over and over again. Only to find excuses over and over again. That is why we have basically same conversations every offseason.

Edit: this is my opinion

[Kammrath]

I don't know what you mean by this....but hilarious GIF and great movie.

[Dahlsim]

Good thoughtful post.  To the point you made above, I wonder how much turnover in the front office and coaching staff played a role in missing this.  Should Finley and Keith Grant have pounded the table until someone listened.  Did Nico and Kidd et al need some evaluation time?  Should they have known based on the data and testimonies available to them from staff holdovers?  Not making an excuse necessarily.  But, the timing of the regime change couldn’t have helped.

Good educated speculation there.  It seems clear Kidd and his staff saw something in Brunson that they could get more out of.  You have to wonder why they didn't also see the implications on extending him before fully showcasing him in an expanded role? 

Give Kidd and his staff some credit for putting Jalen into a position to highlight his game the way he did. Based on Brunson's own word's in the video, at the time that Jalen said he went to the Mavs 1st, both he and his father had discussed and decided on an acceptable number that was 1/2 of what the Knicks put forth at the time.    He said the Knicks offer was double what he and his father had discussed. 

So the coaching and direction Brunson received in Dallas, which he also gives big props to in the interview, put him position to massively increase his value with at least one NBA team, which is all you need ultimately.

[F Gump]

Based on Brunson's own word's in the video, at the time that Jalen said he went to the Mavs 1st, both he and his father had discussed and decided on an acceptable number that was 1/2 of what the Knicks put forth at the time.    He said the Knicks offer was double what he and his father had discussed.

1 what the Knicks put forth at the time
2 the Knicks offer was double


IOW extreme tampering by NYK occurred, long before free agency began.

[Dahlsim]

1 what the Knicks put forth at the time
2 the Knicks offer was double


IOW extreme tampering by NYK occurred, long before free agency began.

 Material evidence for the investigation at 58 seconds in.   

[michaeltex]

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/the-...en-brunson

[SkenfromLMF]

I don't know what you mean by this....but hilarious GIF and great movie.

Twas in answer to:


DallasMaverick
Hi.  I'm new to the board, but really enjoy wallowing in regret, finding fault, and holding grudges.

Is this the right thread for me?