Of Freedom, Country and Vaccination

[dirkfansince1998]

It seems like Dahl is constantly trying to argue against the FORCED vaccination and I’m not sure if dirkfan is trying to argue against, as I’ve been keeping up with this by skimming (so I very well could have skimmed past). DF, are you for or against government mandated vaccination? That at one point was the crux of this back and forth. Is there at least not enough out there for people to have a somewhat reasonable reason to not want to be vaccinated?

I’m vaccinated and had the virus, but I would not want to make that decision for others.

I am torn. Vaccines save lifes. And as discussed in the early days of this thread. They can be a legal option. But I am not sure if the current situation justifies a vaccine mandate. Especially if we are talking about a mandate for all americans. Would be a different story if the vaccines would completly stop transmission but that´s not the case. Or with an even deadlier virus. Even with a mandate there obviously need to be exemptions. Previously infected (let´s say within the last 6-12) month shouldn´t be forced. To the best of our knowledge they have immunity. Not to mention a small group of people that cannot take the vaccine for various health related reasons.

I can definitely see a good case for mandates in specific fields of work. Especially among health care workers. We really don´t need a repeat of the NY hospital situation. Or something even worse like the first wave in northern italy. Mandates for health care workers are actually a wide spread policy around the world.


When we started this discussion it wasn´t as much about medical talking points. More focused on freedom and social issues. Going bigger picture. And that is just my opinion but it is very similar to some of the rulings that upheld vaccine mandates in the past or in other countries. There is no way to deny that this is a human/individual rights issue. Bodily integrity is at the core of this issue. Protecting our body and the ability to be the masters of our body. But and now it gets interesting we aren´t isolated individual beings. We live in a society. It is not only about our own freedom or bodily integrity. That´s the core of social life. We are agreeing to certain norms for the benefit of ourselfs as a part of the society. In modern days this is organized in form of countries/states/governments.

And this brings us to the point where we cannot say that all of those individual rights are absolute. There are justifiable intrusions on individual liberties. In this case they cannot be seen as an intrusion. They are actually the direct opposite. They are measures to protect members of the society (their bodily integrity). Especially the most vulnerable. That´s the entire point of social life. We aren´t measured by the right of the strongest. We are measured by the way we take care of the most vulnerable (that includes children, for some reason we rarely mention them) or in non medical situations minorities.

The big question is if COVID and the resulting need for vaccines is a justifiable intrusion. In my opinion it is. Now comes the next question. Is the mandate the best option to achieve the goal (protect society, most vulnerable). In my opinion it is. No other treatment/preventive option comes close. We don´t have the time to wait for potentially better treatments. We have seen that measures like social distancing, masks or lockdowns aren´t sustainable. And to come back to the most vulnerable groups are having a big impact on children.

Next question. Has the society (in this case presented by the government) done everything in their power to convince people. Exhausted all other options (information campaigns, incentives). That´s where it gets difficult and where I see major problems (at least in the US) because states are essentially doing whatever they want. This thread alone is showcasing that the necessary informations aren´t reaching the people. Debunked news about potential adverse reactions on the one side. Not knowing about some of the more severe adverse reactions on the other side.
That´s the point that we as a society need to focus on. And the option that I would prefer over mandates. I really think that if people would simply look at the available facts and make their decision based on them we wouldn´t need any mandates. The vaccine rate in the US isn´t higher or lower (lower compared to other countries of similar development) because people are smarter/dumber. It is lower because the topic is highly politized.

And that brings us to the political side and the divided political landscape in the US. Another major concern. Even if mandates are justifable they might not lead to the desired results. As shown by some of the posts in this thread. Mandates aren´t changing the minds of people. The opposite. They strengthen the opinions of skeptics. Especially if the mandate comes from an authority they don´t trust.
And they would still refuse the available vaccines. Something that even a mandate cannot change. A mandate can prevent them from working in a given field or visiting certain places. It can never justify forced injections.


To bring this to an end. I am happy that I don´t have to determine whether mandates are justifiable in this case. And I am not qualified to make that decision. Personally I would support mandates for health care workers and can also see the case for a few other groups (for example teachers). But maybe I am under/over rating the threat. And I would highlight that any potential mandate needs clearly defined evidence based exemptions (for example a previous infection within the last six month leading to immunity, allergies, other health related reasons).