Of Freedom, Country and Vaccination

[dirkfansince1998]

I tried to stay away from this thread because I knew that it would turn into a shit show. I am not on other social media platforms so I haven´t tried to argue with let´s say people with different views on the vaccine and COVID. I was tempted to just ignore the thread but read a few things about misinformation and the best way to dispute it. Bottom line. Just leaving it out in the open is not the way to go. And so I tried. Maybe I could have done it in a more polite way but outside of our conversation I actually enjoyed the discussions @"Dahlsim". We obviously don´t have the same opinions but we can discuss them in a civil manner.
Not always fun but now I have committed and as long as threads like this exist on this board I will continue to make my case. I am not without fault and anyone is free to come to his own conclusions.

Natural does last longer--not might.

Based on recent data you are right. I should have phrased it differently and simply added a sentence that accounts for the number of people that isn´t showing any kind of immune response after an infection (mostly mild cases, no symptoms). So yes if you have natural immunity it lasts longer but there are concerns about a high number of infections that did not lead to the expected immune response (potentially no natural immunity).

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

If you have natural immunity, there is no reason for you to add to that. You're just taking a risk at incurring a serious side effect from the vaccine.

Wrong. All relevant studies suggested increased IgG-titer. Outside of a slightly stronger initial vaccine reaction (headach, fever) there are no known additonal risks. That´s why all major health agencies around the world suggest the vaccine for fully recovered. Recovered and vaccinated is better than simply recovered. Take a look at @"TXBamanut" post and the linked study. It seems that you are willing to accept the first conclusion (lasting natural immunity). Why not the second?

No sense in adding new drugs to that mix for no reason

Seems like you are supporting the use of all kind of drugs. Recommended or not. The one that is actually proven to work wouldn´t hurt.

Yes, they are not the same. You're deconstructing my position in a way that misrepresents my argument.

I am not. I am calling out your assumptions. As of now we don´t know enough about the potential impact of a 3rd shot. But even if we need another one or even a fourth one that´s  nothing new. Again. Different virus. Different immun response. Different vaccine. Different immune mechanisms.
A lot of vaccines need multiple shots or need to be refreshed. Example. Five Tetanus doses for children. Sixth one recommended for adults.
We need more information about the virus and the immune response to come up with the best possible solution. And yes that is going to take a lot of time.

The US since the beginning, has has the worst data collection of covid data in the first world. This has been notably written about (if you've been dealing with these metrics for any given period of time). Demographic data was virtually non existent almost a year in and nothing was standardized. That's not a point I'm going to argue with you here because that's very well known. 

Again. Nothing was hidden but I won´t be able to change your believe system. Futile to try it. But even if that is the case it wouldn´t be a problem. Thankfully we have more than one country in the world and others are collecting data as well. But you obviously don´t want to talk about it. Systems like VAERS for example exist in nearly all countries.

The people you're referring to are board certified in what they do and far more knowledgeable about this that you seem to let on and for whatever they are charged with, i care if any of it sticks. Anyone can be charged with a lawsuit and anyone can be made to look a fool in the court of public opinion.

For example: "[...] Dr. Peter McCullough, a prominent advocate for early out-patient treatment of COVID-19, was recently sued by his former employer demanding more than $1 million in damages, for allegedly continuing to refer to that affiliation, supposedly confusing the public about the institution’s views."

No doubt. A lot of them know more than me. I am not claiming to have superior knowledge. Thing is that the large majority of phyisicians that disagrees with them also has more knowledge than me. Even if you think that all have them are in it for the money, control, big pharma and the government what´s the difference compared to mentioned guys that are in it for the same reasons. I already mentioned FLCCC and AFLDS methods and snake oil salesmen schemes.  I guess the guys that are selling phone calls and drugs for hundreds of dollars are the good guys.

Why should a doctor lose his license for prescribing a medication off label for treatment

Because it is incredible dangerous. Even off label treatment comes with some recommendations. Most physicians are specialist. In most cases a family doctor (or similar) cannot have the required knowledge to come up with a completly new treatment regimen. Specialist do. That´s why they design them. That´s why we have guidelines for basically every single possible medical scenario and come up with new ones when we encounter a new scenario.
Not to mention the possiblity to abuse the system for monetary or other reasons. Not to mention the potential legal consequences. Personally I would not risk a million or even billion dollar civil law suit.

Make that make sense. You can't. Are there dumb mfkrs taking animal meds? Yes. A small minority but this is a medication thats used by humans the world over and has been used for covid with absolute success. Not 100% but from 40% - 75% efficacy or so. Unless you're saying every clinic, scientist, operation outside the US is lying and conspiring to use cheap medication over the most expensive option. Yes, all of those scientists are lying about it working

Already answered this in length. No the effcacy is not proven. But at this point I am not repeating my lengthy response from an earlier post. To summarize it. Some low quality studies are suggesting that there might be a positive impact. All high quality studies (randomized, double blind) that haven´t been retracted negate that. Not sure how that is any prove for the mentioned efficacy but I know where the numbers are coming from so I am not suprised.
Not sure where the claim about scienists or research from outside the US is coming from. Maybe a vivid fantasy.
As of now there is no relevant evidence that supports the case for Ivermectin as a COVID treatment. Further research is on the way and hopefully it will settle the debate. Who knows. Maybe we get lucky and they find something. Would be great for all of us.

If you have a problem with that, that's no one's problem but your own, but the censorship, the lying, the forced coercion and again the lying, needs to stop

It seems like you have more of a problem. Otherwise you woudn´t be as angry. I recognize some of the problems we have and the distrust in the current political system and authorities. Probably not the ones that you would mention. Can certainly agree that I want to live in a free country and don´t like lies. I guess that our political views are just as contraire as our views on COVID.

No one single independent, unelected group of bureaucrats need to be making decisions on behalf of the entire country, period. If you don't like that, you can move to Australia or China where you'll be welcomed as the model citizen. 

Lucky you. I already moved to Germany. Based on the things I have heard and seen Australia is a great place to be. Would love to visit it at some point in the future. I am deeply sorry that I am destroying your American dream.
Great idea by the way. Let´s just kick all of the people that disagree with a random opinion out of the country. Didn´t you just mention suppression and censorship.

Add: https://www.reuters.com/business/healthc...021-10-06/

"The Swedish health agency said it would pause using the shot for people born in 1991 and later as data pointed to an increase of myocarditis and pericarditis among youths and young adults that had been vaccinated. Those conditions involve an inflammation of the heart or its lining.

"The connection is especially clear when it comes to Moderna's vaccine Spikevax, especially after the second dose," the health agency said, adding the risk of being affected was very small."

They aren't pausing a vaccination rollout over a few cases...

Damn censorship. If only one of us would have mentioned this a few days ago. Or even month ago because the information was available all the time. Just need to look at it. Wait a minute I did. From earlier this week.

We also know more about the highlighted risks. In case of Moderna and Pfizer for example we are talking about myocarditis and pericarditis cases spiking among younger men (16-30). Spiking means that we are talking about above average numbers compared to the general population. US data 1:100000. Israel 2.4-2.7:100000. Most of those cases are related to an undiscovered pre existing condition. Meaning that the risk to suffer from the same complications because of a COVID infection is still higher.

The mentioned risk of thrombosis and thrombocytopenia is of importance but not for the US. European AstraZeneca recommendations were adjusted because of it.  Cases spiked among women below 50-60. Countries adjusted the recommendations and continued to use the vaccine. Overall even for the "at risk" group the benefit still outweights the risk according to the data (more likely to suffer from COVID related complications than any vaccine related complications).

Had a nice conversation with @"Dahlsim" over the potential implications and adjusted vaccine guide lines in other countries. The data is from july. Current numbers suggest 4-5:100000.
But I have good news for you. The vaccine is not aproved for people under 18. No forced vaccination for them. Obviously also the case for younger children.


Really sorry about the number of quotes but this time I wanted to adress all points.