2021-2022 ROSTER TALK: [ARCHIVED]

[F Gump]

My hope would be to move DP into the second unit with Holmes taking the vast majority of the minutes.  I feel that Powell has looked much better in Kidds defense then anyone would have imagined and I feel Holmes would perform even better in that role. And we all know the damage that Luka can do with a good roll man.

I'd rather work to add to our front court then try to replace and improve simply because we don't have a ton of (useful) bodies there while we have a logjam in the backcourt once everyone is healthy.

So if you move DP to 2nd team to suit Holmes, then Maxi is 3rd team? Minutes matter. You already have 4 C/PF players who will merit 20+ minute roles, for 2 positions, so adding another creates a minutes issue.

C - DP, Maxi
PF - DFS, Bertans

[KillerLeft]

It is a very legit and respectable opinion to have. DP has been legit and has a known positive connection with Luka and a great lockerroom guy.

The locker room stuff is great, don't get me wrong. But...

I think Holmes probably improves in the areas of rebounding and throwing his weight around in the paint on defense. 

I think it's debatable who'd be better in this switchable defense once Holmes got used to it and was playing at full speed, but my money would be on Powell, defensively. I could go either way here, however. 

When it comes to pick and roll play with Luka, I think Powell is so taken for granted by Dallas fans it's criminal. He might be the best roll man in the league, even now, after that awful injury. He sometimes sets 3 different screens on one action, often creating a layup for the ball-handler by back screening someone in the paint when all else has failed. This requires significant intelligence and basketball IQ. It just isn't something that I feel is easily replaced at all. Porzingis can't do it, that's for sure. Maybe Holmes can, but if so, I haven't seen any indication of it recently. 

But the thing that really gives me pause is this: Holmes is 28 and has been on a team for years now that does not demand excellence from their players. When he was free, did anyone get a sense that he tried hard to land somewhere better? I didn't. Now that he has been paid, do we get the sense he's more entrenched in that team's plans, or has he started to fade already? I know it's Sacramento, which makes it tough to gauge anything. I get that. But, I'd say there would probably be at least a year of reprogramming - breaking bad habits, etc, needed here, and who knows if he's even up for that ride? 

I don't want this to come across like I don't like Holmes because I do! I would happily accept him here, and I think he might be everything we hope. But, I think there's a decent chance he's nowhere near what we hope, too.

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I for one, have been excited about Bertans from moment one. 

This is true. He has the t-shirt to prove it!

[DanSchwartzgan]

If you're getting the Powell we've seen for the past few weeks, I'm honestly not sure it even is an upgrade. I know that won't be popular, but it's my honest opinion.

I think the question we need to ask ourselves is whether Sac would pair Powell with Sabonis…even for a pick?

I don’t see it from their perspective.  More likely the ask would be Maxi or arguably Bullock.

[dirkfansince1998]

So if you move DP to 2nd team to suit Holmes, then Maxi is 3rd team? Minutes matter. You already have 4 C/PF players who will merit 20+ minute roles, for 2 positions, so adding another creates a minutes issue.

C - DP, Maxi
PF - DFS, Bertans

As we saw in the game against Miami. Kleber/Powell minutes are still a thing. Shared the floor for 13 minutes. Including the clutch minutes to close out the game. I am not sure if Holmes is the answer but the Mavs could use another big.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

So if you move DP to 2nd team to suit Holmes, then Maxi is 3rd team? Minutes matter. You already have 4 C/PF players who will merit 20+ minute roles, for 2 positions, so adding another creates a minutes issue.

C - DP, Maxi
PF - DFS, Bertans

I think with DFS being able to handle minutes at the 3 and 4 and Bullock being able to handle minutes at the 3 and 2 you'd still have plenty of ways to spread minutes across. Green and Bertans may see minutes slightly cut in that scenario.

Holmes 24/Powell 18/Maxi 6
DFS 16/Maxi 18/Bertans 14
Bullock 18/DFS 16/Green 14
Brunson 30/Bullock 10/Green 8
Luka 30/Dimwiddie 18

In all honesty, I wouldn't be surprised to see Kidd play Bertans with Maxi and Powell and see how well the defense can hold up like that which would also open up different ways to get everyone minutes.

[F Gump]

As we saw in the game against Miami. Kleber/Powell minutes are still a thing. Shared the floor for 13 minutes. Including the clutch minutes to close out the game. I am not sure if Holmes is the answer but the Mavs could use another big.

I think you observed a one-off small sample size, that was forced due to a confluence of unusual events. But not something that is the norm at all. Which would not be meaningful in figuring out where they stand on minutes. We'll see.

The series of events: Powell in major foul trouble. Chriss isn't available as 3rd C. Bullock isn't available to defend Butler. Bertans is new so isn't familiar enough to play a lot of PF minutes.

Changing just one of those would probably have allowed the norm of DP-Maxi combining for 48 or less. In any event, there's not enough minutes for 30 or so for Holmes (unless someone goes, and DP would be the obvious choice), not even close.

[dirkfansince1998]

I think you observed a one-off small sample size, that was forced due to a confluence of unusual events. But not something that is the norm at all. Which would not be meaningful in figuring out where they stand on minutes. We'll see.

The series of events: Powell in major foul trouble. Chriss isn't available as 3rd C. Bullock isn't available to defend Butler. Bertans is new so isn't familiar enough to play a lot of PF minutes.

Changing just one of those would probably have allowed the norm of DP-Maxi combining for 48 or less. In any event, there's not enough minutes for 30 or so for Holmes (unless someone goes, and DP would be the obvious choice), not even close.

Maybe 13 minutes are more than usual but Powell/Kleber sharing the floor for a couple of minutes has been the norm. 8.7 minutes per game for the season. Maybe that is going to change in the future but considering that the combination was getting minutes when KP was healthy I don´t think so. Chriss is a 3rd string big. When it really matters he probably is out of the rotation. DFS will get minutes at PF. Bertans will get some minutes. But they cannot play small ball for 48 minutes.

For me the more interesting question is how they are going to keep the key players fresh. In the last two years the Mavs ran DFS and Kleber into the ground. They couldn´t handle the minutes/load. A regular season insurance that can back up either one or play a few center minutes would really help. As of now that seems to be Chriss´s role. Wouldn´t hurt to find an upgrade.

[F Gump]

I don't see the issue. I don't see players being overused. I don't see small ball, either, just regular-sized rotations with switchable players.

DP 24 Maxi 24     (Chriss, Bobi)
DFS 30 Bertans 18
Bullock 30 Green 18  (Brown)
Brunson 30          (Franky) (THJ)
       Dinwiddie 30
Luka 30               (Burke)

6 minutes unaccounted for at PG/SG, but easy to cover in many ways.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Maybe Holmes can, but if so, I haven't seen any indication of it recently. 

Holmes' entire reputation has been built around being an elite roll man.  I'm with you on Powell and not going to take anything away for what he does for this offense and Luka and while what I've seen from Holmes' rolling is much more finding spots in the paint for a ball handler to find him as opposed to creating a lane for for the ball handler, I think there's a pretty fine line between those two objectives when things are free flowing.  The Haliburton/Holmes PnR was a very effective weapon for the Kings while it was still a thing.

While most of what I get to see of Holmes defensively is against the Mavs, I've watched him hold his own switched on Luka more than a handful of times and that was honestly when I really started wanting him on this roster.  The concerns about playing for a franchise like the Kings for that long are valid but when you watch him play, motor surely doesn't seem to be an issue.

Again, for me additions that we would make are about adding to Maxi/Powell in terms of their specific skillsets as opposed to simply upgrading them.

[KillerLeft]

I don't see small ball, either, just regular-sized rotations with switchable players.

I agree with this! If anything, I feel like the Mavs are much bigger than most teams, honestly.

[DanSchwartzgan]

 
DP 24 Maxi 24      
DFS 30 Bertans 18
Bullock 30 Green 18   
Brunson 30                  (THJ)
       Dinwiddie 30
Luka 30                

This feels about right to me with the exception of Luka probably eating up most of the 6 minutes that weren't accounted for.

Main point I wanted to make (especially after listening to Nico yesterday) is outside of Luka, there isn't anyone who is irreplaceable among the other starters.  Yeah, most want to focus on Powell, but DFS, Bullock or Brunson are also candidates to be upgraded.  Also, if minutes are an issue with adding a player now, imagine what happens when THJ is healthy.  So, we have an extra wing salary to add to any deal whether it is THJ or Bullock or whoever.

Point of the Post:  If a great SF becomes available, it can be Bullock + AW (any wing) as the outgoing.  Same with DFS + AW for a great PF.  Same with Brunson + AW for a SG.  The big issue with upgrading a position other than C is you still have two older guys on expiring deals as your only viable centers once we get to the summer of 23.

[KillerLeft]

Point of the Post:  If a great SF becomes available, it can be Bullock + AW (any wing) as the outgoing.  Same with DFS + AW for a great PF.  Same with Brunson + AW for a SG.  The big issue with upgrading a position other than C is you still have two older guys on expiring deals as your only viable centers once we get to the summer of 23.

Yeah, this is where I am, too. I think they're finally to a place where:

A) they can play the way they want to play without making any changes

B) they have enough plausible depth to make (temporary) sacrifices in one area to improve another

C) they don't currently have a player whose fit with others is so difficult that some improvements to the roster would result in the team being worse off as a result of acquiring them. Porzingis was so, so, SO tough to build around.

[jdb152]

You are too late.  No reason for NY to give up much when they can simply clear cap and sign Brunson straight up.  Its likely sign Brunson for market value or watch him walk for nothing.

This is the same organization that traded half their roster to DEN fr a player they could have signed in the summer. So, there is that. It isn't a cinch that NY can simply clear cap room. Yes, it can be do but it has to be done. Should it get done & should he actually choose to join that pit of irrelevance, the agents & the FO's can, at the very least, negotiate a trade that nets DAL a huge TPE. That is done all the time as a courtesy to keep relations within the league & agent circles in good standing. These people have to work together all the time. Very rare that you see simple acrimony from any of them.

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Holmes has been bad since December for the Kings and has no starting spot with Sabonis playing the 5 for Sacramento. Not giving up a 1st for him.

I don't think a pick is necessary. DAL will actually have expiring deals they can use that SAC will value, as it gets them off his remaining years/money.

[jdb152]

RE: My Desire for the Mavs to Chase John Collins This Summer in a Trade

I think if the Mavs are able to rehab DB's image heading into the summer (and his shooting gets back to his career 40% from three level), that DB could be a real piece involved in a John Collins trade with ATL. DB seems like a guy Travis Schlenk would be interested in.

I've had the same thought. I don't think the JC talk is going away.

[mvossman]

There's a level of productivity at which the Mavs would decide DB is too valuable here, to trade. That sounds odd, in light of the conversations when he was acquired, but he's such a pure shooter with height, and able to get off shots.

But what if they can get him corner 3s with great regularity? There he shoots well over 50% (!) season after season. (For example, this season with the Wiz, when his numbers looked bad, he made 57% on corner 3s for the season. 57%. Not a typo.) Consider the possibilities and impact.

I feel like folks are getting way too excited about Bertans.  He is considered one of the worst contracts in the league.  There are reasons for that.  Whether its his lack of defense, his injury issues, the fact that his only contribution on the court is to shoot corner threes, likely all of the above.  He has had one good season in his career.  The idea that we would be hesitant to send him out in a trade for Collins is greatly over valuing his likely impact on the court.

[jdb152]

I feel like folks are getting way too excited about Bertans.  He is considered one of the worst contracts in the league.  There are reasons for that.  Whether its his lack of defense, his injury issues, the fact that his only contribution on the court is to shoot corner threes, likely all of the above.  He has had one good season in his career.  The idea that we would be hesitant to send him out in a trade for Collins is greatly over valuing his likely impact on the court.

It's a bad contract attached to a limited player who needs to rehab his image. I would never argue against that. Still, I'm of the opinion that, in a league where we can see Russell Westbrook and John Wall's money moved, a contract that averages 16/per with 44 guaranteed over the next 3 years isn't sniffing the level of "Worst in the League". Not even close, imo.

[Kammrath]

He has had one good season in his career. 

He had three seasons in a row (leading up to this one) of 62+% (!!!) TS% while posting +10.6, +7.9, +6.4 On/Off +/- numbers.  

Dirk never had a season of 62+% TS% and Nash had four in his whole career. And the greatest shooter of all-time (Steph Curry) has had six in his career. 

I am NOT saying that DB is a superstar like those guys (so no one please strawman what I am saying), but he is a damn good (elite?) shooter and did that for three seasons in a row before this one.

[KillerLeft]

I would never argue against that. Still, I'm of the opinion that, in a league where we can see Russell Westbrook and John Wall's money moved, a contract that averages 16/per with 44 guaranteed over the next 3 years isn't sniffing the level of "Worst in the League". Not even close, imo.

Yeah, the worst contract in the league literally can't be a $16 million per. The Mavs just traded a much worse contract to WAS.

[michaeltex]

It's a bad contract attached to a limited player who needs to rehab his image. I would never argue against that. Still, I'm of the opinion that, in a league where we can see Russell Westbrook and John Wall's money moved, a contract that averages 16/per with 44 guaranteed over the next 3 years isn't sniffing the level of "Worst in the League". Not even close, imo.

I agree with your assessment.

Based on past MBT behavior I worry that he will become "one of the guys" and DAL will turn down a deal because he's "family". I'm not saying to actively shop DB or not try to expand his contributions, but if it takes DB to land someone like a Collins then "adios, Davis".

[ItsGoTime]

I don't see the issue. I don't see players being overused. I don't see small ball, either, just regular-sized rotations with switchable players.

DP 24 Maxi 24     (Chriss, Bobi)
DFS 30 Bertans 18
Bullock 30 Green 18  (Brown)
Brunson 30          (Franky) (THJ)
       Dinwiddie 30
Luka 30               (Burke)

6 minutes unaccounted for at PG/SG, but easy to cover in many ways.

It may work out that way after the trade, but it has been a revelation for me to read your take on MK being exclusively a C. Revelation both from the standpoint that you think he was pretrade, and that only a couple people challenges you on it.


MK has been more exclusively a PF than anything else throughout his career.

He may have played a few minutes here and there as the only “big” on the floor, other than that, he has ALWAYS played with another “big” making him the PF.

I know, traditional positions are not a thing anymore, why make a depth chart if that is the case? Also there was so much talk about 2 C’s when Powell played with KP, then when the lineup switched to KP and MK it was a 1 C lineup. Never was there a time anyone challenged that til now and it goes by with so little resistance (dfs has put up some so far)? 

I know, I know, semantics and all. I do get caught up in the semantics of it all, just weird to me what seems to be common knowledge is not so much so. Without challenging it, you’ll never know how common that knowledge was.