2021-2022 ROSTER TALK: [ARCHIVED]

[Kammrath]

Plenty of media folks have called Bertans' contract one of the worst in the league.

They have....but as "group think" IMO. It is a "parrot" industry. There is nothing about DB's contract that concerns me unless he has a huge injury.

[cow]

They have....but as "group think" IMO. It is a "parrot" industry. There is nothing about DB's contract that concerns me unless he has a huge injury.

He had a shoulder injury.  He couldn't get minutes for a struggling Wizards team.  He's owed $49m the next three years.  Not everyone in the industry is parrot.  When JB gets his next contract, he'll not be making much more than Betans.

You can might be able to turn him into a useful rotation piece but you'll never get value from his contract.

[KillerLeft]

KL. we are not saying either picks or players. We are saying a shrewd GM would have got a pick in addition to the players. Instead we not only did not get any but gave up a 2nd round pick. As someone said even my 18 year old can negotiate deals like that.  

No, no, I get it. I wasn't really speaking specifically about this deal only in that rant, but let's do that now. 

My guess is that the Mavs approached teams trying to get off of Porzingis. I believe that WAS was probably one of the few who even entertained the idea, and my guess is that they asked for a first to do so (maybe more than one). This seems to be the going rate. 

I believe that this was then negotiated to a compromise point where Dallas had to eat a huge pile of...slop...from WAS in order to get out of paying 1-2 first rounders that they really don't have and wouldn't want to give up, even if they did. 

You say that even the 2nd was too much, and maybe you're right. Maybe it was the only way? You'll say "then you just don't make the deal" and you're entitled to that take. You're making a point about asset management and (really) negotiating skill, and in 8/10 cases, I'd agree. But not on this one - not with Porzingis. 

I STRONGLY believe (and have written of little else for a year, so I know you know this) that Porzingis had to cleared out of here. We don't agree on that, so you won't truly see my perspective on this next bit, but I do not agree that being willing to walk away from the table would've been a help to the Mavs in this, specific situation. I do not agree that any chain of events that had Porzingis sill on this team today would've been preferable to the situation today. 

We can disagree about that - totally cool. You will never convince me, however. 

I will be right there with you about asset management and negotiation on the next deal, if it's bad. I just needed this Porzingis thing to be over the way some people needed Carlisle to move on. I'm happy to finally learn that the Mavs decision makers needed it that much, too - it gives me slight hope that they're seeing the same world I'm seeing.

[SatnamSingh]

Who is saying this other than people on the internet? 

Bertans shooting at 40% from three like his career is on a solid contract. 

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=622&pid=85084#pid85084

[TXBamanut]

I'm open to evidence to the contrary, but my impression of the situation in Washington was it was more about guys like Beal reacting poorly to Dinwiddie trying to speak up as a leader than it was about Dinwiddie being a problem in the locker room. Note that Dinwiddie responded by backing down and embracing his role. I interpret it as saying more about Beal's ego than about Dinwiddie's.

My evidence was based on a media member (Chris Haynes) who talked to people in the locker room.  What is your impression based on?  I'm open to evidence, but if you are just retelling a narrative to make it sound better or creating the best scenario, that's not going to do it.  If you heard that, great...I really hope you are right.

There's no amount of talk that can make me go "Yay, Bertans, the new Agent Zero"  (Philly game last year where he recorded 0 points, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 steals, 0 blocks and 6 fouls in 24 minutes)...

[KillerLeft]

There's no amount of talk that can make me go "Yay, Bertans, the new Agent Zero"

Who's asking you to say that? 

Who's asking anyone to say anything? 

Why are you so angry at Tyler, friend to you and me? 

I don't get it.

[Winter]

Mavs salary Cap through 2025

[TXBamanut]

Who's asking you to say that? 

Who's asking anyone to say anything? 

Why are you so angry at Tyler, friend to you and me? 

I don't get - where you can say I'm angry with Tyler because I expressed a different viewpoint.  In fact, you are projecting a lot there.

Maybe everyone projecting their own viewpoint onto someone like they were the problem is why we had certain people leave the forum...or maybe them projecting on others...either way, that's some paltry evidence to level that charge.  I mean if I wrote something like this....

Hey Tyler, you lousy excuse for a human, I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo angry at you!!!!!!!

Yeah, I'd get that...but I don't see the other stuff at all.  Obviously, Tyler, you aren't a lousy excuse for a human, I'm just demonstrating a point to KL.

Also, I didn't say anyone was asking me to say that about Bertans, but I'm hyperbolizing to make the point that I think Bertans is a net negative and no amount of lipstick on that proverbial pig (I'm sure Davis is a great guy as a person as well) is going to give me optimism about his acquisition.

[Mavs2021]

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=622&pid=85084#pid85084

You went straight for the killshot including an all inclusive burial deluxe.

[KillerLeft]

Maybe everyone projecting their own viewpoint onto someone like they were the problem is why we had certain people leave the forum...or maybe them projecting on others...either way, that's some paltry evidence to level that charge.  I mean if I wrote something like this....

Hey Tyler, you lousy excuse for a human, I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo angry at you!!!!!!!

Yeah, I'd get that...but I don't see the other stuff at all.  Obviously, Tyler, you aren't a lousy excuse for a human, I'm just demonstrating a point to KL.

Hey man, I'm not trying to get you mad at me, and if I've misrepresented your temp, I sincerely apologize. 

I guess it's just your writing style (or rather my misunderstanding of it). It's not just you, either. I just feel like so many people are angry all the time now. 

I didn't mean to offend, so I probably should have just left it alone. I just want everyone to have fun here, that's all.

[hakeemfaan]

No, no, I get it. I wasn't really speaking specifically about this deal only in that rant, but let's do that now. 

My guess is that the Mavs approached teams trying to get off of Porzingis. I believe that WAS was probably one of the few who even entertained the idea, and my guess is that they asked for a first to do so (maybe more than one). This seems to be the going rate. 

I believe that this was then negotiated to a compromise point where Dallas had to eat a huge pile of...slop...from WAS in order to get out of paying 1-2 first rounders that they really don't have and wouldn't want to give up, even if they did. 

You say that even the 2nd was too much, and maybe you're right. Maybe it was the only way? You'll say "then you just don't make the deal" and you're entitled to that take. You're making a point about asset management and (really) negotiating skill, and in 8/10 cases, I'd agree. But not on this one - not with Porzingis. 

I STRONGLY believe (and have written of little else for a year, so I know you know this) that Porzingis had to cleared out of here. We don't agree on that, so you won't truly see my perspective on this next bit, but I do not agree that being willing to walk away from the table would've been a help to the Mavs in this, specific situation. I do not agree that any chain of events that had Porzingis sill on this team today would've been preferable to the situation today. 

We can disagree about that - totally cool. You will never convince me, however. 

I will be right there with you about asset management and negotiation on the next deal, if it's bad. I just needed this Porzingis thing to be over the way some people needed Carlisle to move on. I'm happy to finally learn that the Mavs decision makers needed it that much, too - it gives me slight hope that they're seeing the same world I'm seeing.

If you are saying that despite having a top 4 seed even with our injuries, KP playing relatively well, and at least outwardly seeming to get along with Luka,  that we just have to move on from KP and we will take anything we can get and won’t negotiate correctly like a real GM should…that’s fine.  I was a firm advocate of wanting KP out of here but I am not that desperate where I just capitulate and not take advantage of the Wizards’s desperation as well. 

Again if that’s what you are saying that’s fine. But then let’s not talk about Bertans or Dimwiddie or their contracts. Let’s just say that we are so glad to get rid of KP that we are ok with an underwhelming deal that should have been better negotiated by the Mavs.

[TXBamanut]

Hey man, I'm not trying to get you mad at me, and if I've misrepresented your temp, I sincerely apologize. 

I guess it's just your writing style (or rather my misunderstanding of it). It's not just you, either. I just feel like so many people are angry all the time now. 

I didn't mean to offend, so I probably should have just left it alone. I just want everyone to have fun here, that's all.

There is no need to apologize, man.  Come on, I'm not mad at all.  Am I verbose and tend toward hyperbole and sarcasm?  yeah.  Do I go extreme on the hyperbole?  yeah.  Even get a little snarky sometimes?  Yeah.   Am I set in my opinions and will defend them to the hilt?  Yeah.

I can get angry too, but usually that comes out really big time...but not often..

[hakeemfaan]

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=622&pid=85084#pid85084

 Wow

[KillerLeft]

There is no need to apologize, man.  Come on, I'm not mad at all.  Am I verbose and tend toward hyperbole and sarcasm?  yeah.  Do I go extreme on the hyperbole?  yeah.  Even get a little snarky sometimes?  Yeah.   Am I set in my opinions and will defend them to the hilt?  Yeah.

I can get angry too, but usually that comes out really big time...but not often..

Fair enough. I'm probably a little oversensitive today.

[KillerLeft]

If you are saying that despite having a top 4 seed even with our injuries, KP playing relatively well, and at least outwardly seeming to get along with Luka,  that we just have to move on from KP and we will take anything we can get and won’t negotiate correctly like a real GM should…that’s fine.  I was a firm advocate of wanting KP out of here but I am not that desperate 

I was that desperate, yes. I feel relief today, and this isn't a bit.

Maybe the relief is sucking the wind out of my anger sails. I'm definitely not thrilled about Dinwiddie/Bertans, but I'm so down on KP that it's just not that difficult for me to talk myself into the idea that they're representative of his worth in trade. 

I can even agree that if more could've been gotten, they should have gotten it. I just can't find a way to get mad about this one because I'm so happy the Porzingis era is over. 

Maybe I'll watch one game's worth of Dinwiddie/Bertans and grab my pitchfork like everyone else, but I doubt it.

---

Let’s just say that we are so glad to get rid of KP that we are ok with an underwhelming deal

I believe this is the exact crux of it, yes. 

Every other "positive" is just us trying to think of ways forward from here with hope, as sports fans are known to do.

[hakeemfaan]

KL. I get where you are coming from.  

Regardless of all our disagreements all of us are hoping for the best.  We will all fully root for Bertans or Dimwiddie. The only issue is we always do no matter how crappy our front office has been over the last decade. There is no pressure or spotlight on them. While we vent for a couple of days and then go back to rooting for the team, the front office and ownership don’t seem to be improving on asset management and negotiations 101. That is the frustrating part.  

Cuban wants to be treated like a big market team. At the same time it has suited him well that the Mavs are just another franchise and there has never been any real media scrutiny of his incompetence. Even the off court stuff he got off very lightly.

[KillerLeft]

KL. I get where you are coming from.  

Regardless of all our disagreements all of us are hoping for the best.  We will all fully root for Bertans or Dimwiddie. The only issue is we always do no matter how crappy our front office has been over the last decade. There is no pressure or spotlight on them. While we vent for a couple of days and the. Go back to rooting for the team, the front office and ownership don’t seem to be improving on asset management and negotiations 101. That is the frustrating part.  

Cuban wants to be treated like a big market team. At the same time it has suited him well that the Mavs are just another franchise and there has never been any real media scrutiny of his incompetence. Even the off court stuff he got off very lightly.

I see where this is coming from, too. Lots of validity here. 

Unfortunately, all you or I can do about it is walk away from being fans of the team. I almost did when Carlisle left, mostly because he was one of the last things I actually respected about the organization. 

But since then, I have seen some things that have given me a sliver of hope. Kidd is much more up to this challenge than I expected, for example. I think there's evidence that the team is still improving internally, and in significant ways. 

I absolutely understand that the "new MBT," whether that's really just secret code for just Cuban or not, needs to start getting more base hits and not depend so much on the pitcher beaning them to get on base. Right there with you.

---

We will all fully root for Bertans or Dimwiddie.

And I might not even do this, tbh. 

I am NOT trying to talk anyone into loving this return.

[Kammrath]

https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=622&pid=85084#pid85084

As I have said elsewhere and as the rest of that thread clarifies:

I expected KP's value to be higher at that juncture. I thought the #15 pick and Advija would be possible with Bertans. I always included Bertans in trade ideas with WAS, because I wanted him. I just didn't want those other guys and thought KP was worth more. Fast forward months and I realized KP's value was lower. Fast forward to yesterday and I realized it was even lower. 

Bertans in and of himself has a good deal if he is a 40% three point shooter. I believe that is as close to an NBA "fact" as you can get. Consistent 40% three point shooters get paid and have a lot of value.

P.S. I STILL wouldn't take Bertans, Bryant, and Hutchinson for KP. Bertans and Dinwiddie? Yes.

[Kammrath]

[DallasMaverick]

So...

If we'd traded KP for two guys with expiring contracts, we'd have $5m of cap room to sign a free agent next season...

Would you rather have a $5m player next year, or Bertans and Dinwiddie?