2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[Mavs2021]

My only take away from the last few games is confirmation that it´s simply not working with KP.

In crunch time Luka is also looking for DFS as his trusted go-to-guy and who can blame him with the way Dorian is shooting the ball lately. He seems to have ice in his veins, too.

I thought Richardson looked much better too, when KP was out.

Obviously this team needs upgrades, when KP is traded, but it seems inevitable. I´d try to move heaven and earth for any three-way deal involving Lavine/Porzingis and then make an icing on the cake bit for Collins. If it doesn´t work out, I´m sure you can get Horford or Adams.

[DanSchwartzgan]

Good question and it really depends on Richardsons and KPs future. I think 23m isn´t enough to enter the Collins conversation (not to mention that I don´t like the fit next to KP). You already mentioned the problem with another wing/guard. Players like Ball, Graham or Lowry would push THJ out of the starting five. I wouldn´t mind a split the money approach and target one wing/guard in the 12-15m (THT) and one big in the 5-10m range (Theis).
In a no KP scenario all bets are off. With THJ on a cheap deal the Mavs could potentiall add three guys in the 20+ million range. One of them obviously in a trade.

Honest question about Collins.  KP/Maxi obviously works.  Why can that work and KP/Collins can't?  Atlanta isn't bad at D when Collins is playing.  Some have said D-RPM matters and Collins is better at that than Maxi.  AND, if you have that much potential O on the floor between KP, Collins and Luka, can you get away with Green starting and adding another plus perimeter defender.

Plus, it isn't like KP/Collins will play together for the full 48.  There would be all sorts of mix and match opportunities between KP/Powell/WCS/Collins and even some DFS at PF with a roll man (which has worked well when KP sits).  Notice I didn't include Maxi (I have him going out in the Collins deal which would preserve the ability to keep THJ).

KP/Powell/WCS
Collins/(KP-DFS)
DFS/THJ
Green/(THJ-Brunson)
Luka/Brunson

[Kammrath]

KP/Collins

I assume the Mavs HAVE been targeting this. I love RH, but them chasing JC would not surprise me one bit.

[Scott41theMavs]

I assume the Mavs HAVE been targeting this. I love RH, but them chasing JC would not surprise me one bit.

Why can't we lose out on both?!?!?!

[chaparral]

My only take away from the last few games is confirmation that it´s simply not working with KP.

In crunch time Luka is also looking for DFS as his trusted go-to-guy and who can blame him with the way Dorian is shooting the ball lately. He seems to have ice in his veins, too.

I thought Richardson looked much better too, when KP was out.

Obviously this team needs upgrades, when KP is traded, but it seems inevitable. I´d try to move heaven and earth for any three-way deal involving Lavine/Porzingis and then make an icing on the cake bit for Collins. If it doesn´t work out, I´m sure you can get Horford or Adams.

Adams and a S&T Ball would work for KP and a S&T JRich.

[dirkfansince1998]

Honest question about Collins.  KP/Maxi obviously works.  Why can that work and KP/Collins can't?  Atlanta isn't bad at D when Collins is playing.  Some have said D-RPM matters and Collins is better at that than Maxi.  AND, if you have that much potential O on the floor between KP, Collins and Luka, can you get away with Green starting and adding another plus perimeter defender.

Plus, it isn't like KP/Collins will play together for the full 48.  There would be all sorts of mix and match opportunities between KP/Powell/WCS/Collins and even some DFS at PF with a roll man (which has worked well when KP sits).  Notice I didn't include Maxi (I have him going out in the Collins deal which would preserve the ability to keep THJ).

KP/Powell/WCS
Collins/(KP-DFS)
DFS/THJ
Green/(THJ-Brunson)
Luka/Brunson

KP/Maxi works because Kleber can defend stretch bigs and even some wings/guards. He can also switch the pick and roll. Same for Melli and to a lesser degree WCS/Powell. Collins is not a bad defender but in the modern NBA he has no real position. Not a real rim protector or post defender. Not a versatile perimeter defender. Good man defense against guys of similar size. No liability but next to KP the Mavs probably need someone that can make up for the lack of quickness and mobility.

Lineup data for the Hawks suggest that Collins has no real impact on defense. Capela on the other hand looks like a great anchor. Hawks defense is 0.9pts better when Collins is on the bench. 7.1pts worse when Capela is on the bench. Both share the floor with some really bad perimeter defenders.
KP is basically the anti Capela. Mavs defense is 7.4pts worse when he plays. Only big on the roster with negative defensive +/-.

[Mapka]

My only take away from the last few games is confirmation that it´s simply not working with KP.

In crunch time Luka is also looking for DFS as his trusted go-to-guy and who can blame him with the way Dorian is shooting the ball lately. He seems to have ice in his veins, too.

I thought Richardson looked much better too, when KP was out.

Obviously this team needs upgrades, when KP is traded, but it seems inevitable. I´d try to move heaven and earth for any three-way deal involving Lavine/Porzingis and then make an icing on the cake bit for Collins. If it doesn´t work out, I´m sure you can get Horford or Adams.

We really have to live in different realities.

[dirkfansince1998]

Adams and a S&T Ball would work for KP and a S&T JRich.

Would be great. Cheap deal for THJ (13-14m). Adams/Ball for KP/Richardson or KP/Burke. Nearly 20m left to go after another player.

[Tikkun Olam]

TJ Warren and Taurean Prince are both players that I’ve thought would make a lot of sense for us. Both have 1 year left this summer at $13 million. So they should be available for cheap. Both also neatly fit salary wise in a swap for opted in J Rich should we choose to go that route. Both would be excellent backup 3’s who could play with the starting group if needed. 

Also of note since it’s unlikely we could get BOTH Brogdon and Turner from Indy, Brogdon and Warren or Turner and Warren both are decent packages for KP depending how Indy wants to go about retooling their roster. (Yes KP is a bad fit there but could go to a 3rd team)

TJ Warren is a really good player. I would love him here.

[StepBackJay]

I don't see any reason why TJ Warren would be cheap, even if he is expiring.

[StepBackJay]

4.  Graham and Brunson are both represented by CAA.  Agents don't typically place a client on a new team at the same position as another client...especially a year before their contract is up.  It is a good way to get fired by Brunson.  Graham would pinch Brunson's opportunities.  Seeing Brunson in the closing lineup would be a thing of the past.  I'm not saying it can't happen, but you'd have to have a good understanding with Jalen of what he can expect in a year and it would probably need to be sixth man of the year type money.

I didn't know they were at the same agency but Mavs have gotten multiple players from the same agent before (Duffy, Schwartz of course). I like Graham as a target. I think he's good, not great and thus gettable. One of those guards will be available just because Charlotte has too many. 

Graham is a little redundant with Brunson in some ways but that's not necessarily a problem bc J Rich would be leaving so Mavs will have an open spot for guard minutes. I like the idea of Graham, THJ, Brunson all competing for minutes/role.

At any rate to me Graham will be gettable, especially if Mavs think he could at least compete for a starting position.

Mavs could resign THJ, pay Graham and maybe even have some money left over. I worry a bit ab trying to play Brunson and Graham together at all but bottom line is Graham could be a replacement for J Rich.

[StepBackJay]

I just want to figure out a way to trade KP for Brogdon and then add Holmes while keeping THJ as 6th man.

At this point if you just did a KP for Brog trade + filler I would probably do it bc I am very high on Brog and low on KP.

I could see KP to Warriors, Wiggins + Minney to Pacers, Brog + something to Mavs. TJ Warren would be ideal but even Jeremy Lamb is a useful player and is expiring. Mavs would keep THJ and then probably go big after Holmes.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I assume the Mavs HAVE been targeting this. I love RH, but them chasing JC would not surprise me one bit.

I think it accomplishes several interesting things...

It doesn’t marginalize Brunson by bringing in another PG sized guy.  I’d rather not lose JB a year from now.  Money shouldn’t be an issue, but role might be.  Continuing to close games will help.

It clears a path for Green to contribute.  He could even start, but it would probably be one of those deals where multiple backups actually get more minutes than him.  BTW, Green and DFS on the wing could be devastating.  I don’t think we will ever call Green a playmaker, but he does make very instinctive passes in the heat of the moment.

It keeps KP at his preferred position, but also keeps two bigs on the floor

It allows a guy like Powell or WCS to function well alongside either KP or Collins.  It also means PnR or PnPop action can come from just about anywhere.

If done with Maxi as an outgoing salary, there is room to keep THJ.  Part of why I’m comfortable touting the unproven Green for a role next year is THJ and Brunson are both two position guys who overlap into Green’s position.

There are certainly defensive issues, but if we are honest, Maxi hasn’t set the world on fire this season (probably not fair, but true).  By most measures, not that there is a great defensive metric, both are below average...except in D-RPM and RPM.  Collins is the sixth rated PF in both.  I’m looking forward to the playoffs where I may have a reason to watch some Atlanta games and rely on my (also faulty) eye test.  I think the Green thing could be underrated though.  I’m not sure why KP’s D has been so bad or whether it is permanently impaired.  But Collins is big enough to hold his own against PF’s and DFS and Green could really help when teams try to expose Collins in the PnR.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I didn't know they were at the same agency but Mavs have gotten multiple players from the same agent before (Duffy, Schwartz of course). 

I don’t think you can dismiss the issue that easily.  Luka was the first Duffy guy here of any consequences for a decade.  Yeah, we traded for JRich, but trading is different than signing and it isn’t like JRich was any threat to Luka.  In fact, the theory was Luka might help create value for JRich.

I’m drawing a blank on any Schwartz situation where we had a Schwartz guy and signed another to potentially steal minutes from him.  Just having “gotten multiple players” from Schwartz isn’t the issue.  

Imagine you are Brunson.  In a year you will get your first big pay day.  The guy you trust to look out for your best interest instead brings in another of his clients to take minutes/role/opportunity away from you.  The agent is basically taking money out of your pocket.  There would be 100 agents on the phone calling Brunson five seconds after such a move was made.  The agent comes out way ahead placing Graham somewhere else and maximizing Brunson to the extent he can influence that and keeping both customers happy.

[dirkfansince1998]

I don’t think you can dismiss the issue that easily.  Luka was the first Duffy guy here of any consequences for a decade.  Yeah, we traded for JRich, but trading is different than signing and it isn’t like JRich was any threat to Luka.  In fact, the theory was Luka might help create value for JRich.

I’m drawing a blank on any Schwartz situation where we had a Schwartz guy and signed another to potentially steal minutes from him.  Just having “gotten multiple players” from Schwartz isn’t the issue.  

Imagine you are Brunson.  In a year you will get your first big pay day.  The guy you trust to look out for your best interest instead brings in another of his clients to take minutes/role/opportunity away from you.  The agent is basically taking money out of your pocket.  There would be 100 agents on the phone calling Brunson five seconds after such a move was made.  The agent comes out way ahead placing Graham somewhere else and maximizing Brunson to the extent he can influence that and keeping both customers happy.

It really depends on the agent. Some teams like the Lakers are building their entire roster around the clients of one agent (group) and it´s not only about the individual money for each client. THT, KCP and McLemore play the same position. Harrell and Davis as well. All clients aren´t equal and Luka is by far the most important player on the market for a guy like Duffy. It is in his best interest to help the Mavs and Luka.

[StepBackJay]

Imagine you are Brunson.  In a year you will get your first big pay day. 

I am already really worried ab Brunson bc the Knicks have him on their radar bigtime.

[Branduil]

How about Brunson to NYY, Robinson to CHA, and Graham+Bridges to Dallas?

[StepBackJay]

If done with Maxi as an outgoing salary, there is room to keep THJ. 

Maxi is having a rough go this year defensively I think in large part due to injury/Covid stuff. Thankfully his 3% has been really good. I would definitely be good with a Maxi/Collins S&T just bc Collins for his flaws would still be a talent upgrade. Mavs offered Maxi for Collins at the TDL and the Hawks didn't go for it but maybe they just wanted to wait until the summer.

A Collins/THJ summer would be good and seems feasible. Even if Hawks don't want Maxi there would likely be a third team that would be able to send a player or pick back to ATL in a 3-way.

Collins would provide some KP insurance to some extent if he gets moved. Its hard to figure who is Collins idea court-mate but I think WCS actually would be pretty good with Collins.

I am not sure if KP/Collins can co-exist but its worth a shot. Mavs would still need another playmaking guard at some point but maybe Brunson is that guy. He has still only been a 25 mpg guy this year. It's possible next year that Brunson becomes a starter or at least is playing 30 mpg.

[StepBackJay]

Also knowing the Mavs front office wanting to celebrate a big "get," they would tout Collins as a rising star and would like him being still only 23. That checks off boxes even if some of us (maybe ATL's front office) believe he is a bit overrated. It also helps paper over the Curry/J Rich disaster in some respects bc you could argue that Collins is better and a long term fit.

[Kammrath]

It keeps KP at his preferred position, but also keeps two bigs on the floor

Yes, the best part about JC is his flexibility. He can be BOTH DP and Maxi at the same time. So it doesn't pigeonhole KP's role on the starters and maybe allows him more flexibility based on matchup. 

I have said for months JC is my top target, but RH is a close second.