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(12-27-2020, 02:35 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: I think Lavine can be a really good defender with the right coach. He has all world athleticism and he's long. I don't really think you can gauge a players defense accurately when they are on a bad team. Bad teams can have toxic environments. The competition isn't the same. I'm not saying for sure he would be a great defender, but it's definitely possible if he wants to become one.
Lavine has the straight line speed and the vertical. Don´t think he has elite lateral quickness. Not to mention that defense is more about positioning, timing and overall bball IQ.
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12-27-2020, 02:45 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2020, 02:46 PM by BigDirk41.)
(12-27-2020, 02:43 PM)Mavs03 Wrote: I like what I've seen so far from Victor Oladipo and Myles Turner. It appears Oladipo is wanting out of Indiana and the Pacers would love to get an asset from another team. Of course, that team would take on a risk because Oladipo could bolt this summer. The Pacers have been shopping Myles Turner for months now. Could we package expiring contracts in Tim Hardaway Jr, James Johnson, Tyrell Terry (young asset), and future 1st round pick for Oladipo and Turner? The fact that we're a Western Conference team helps our case as well. Assuming the trade goes through, how does this roster look?
Luka
Oladipo
JRich
Turner
KP
Brunson
Burke
DFS
Kleber
Powell
Green, WCS, Boban, Iwundu rounding out the bench. Hinton and Bey are our two-way players
I love the versatility and youth of that team. When KP needs to rest on a 2nd night of a back-to-back...you bring DFS and move him to the PF position and slide Myles Turner to C. The question is...can Turner and KP play together? I say yes. I would be good with that trade, but I think the Pacers would want more. Dipo has really helped his value so far in his 2 games. The longer he maintains his current level of play, the price will keep going up.
(12-27-2020, 02:43 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Lavine has the straight line speed and the vertical. Don´t think he has elite lateral quickness. Not to mention that defense is more about positioning, timing and overall bball IQ. That may be. I don't know for sure so I'll take your word for it.
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(12-27-2020, 02:43 PM)Mavs03 Wrote: The question is...can Turner and KP play together?
Those who said Gobert + KP would NOT work defensively must then 100% say that Turner + KP would NOT work defensively.
Turner is NOT a good defender, he is solid but not good......Gobert is ELITE and people thought he wouldn't work next to KP.
So the "anti-Gobert" crowd needs to be STRONGLY "anti-Turner" unless they are unthinking hypocrites.
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12-27-2020, 02:50 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2020, 02:50 PM by BigDirk41.)
(12-27-2020, 02:47 PM)Kammrath Wrote: Those who said Gobert + KP would NOT work defensively must then 100% say that Turner + KP would NOT work defensively.
Turner is NOT a good defender, he is solid but not good......Gobert is ELITE and people thought he wouldn't work next to KP.
So the "anti-Gobert" crowd needs to be STRONGLY "anti-Turner" unless they are unthinking hypocrites. Kamm I love your passion for Gobert. I'm definitely NOT pro Turner only trade. I would take him and Dipo to get Dipo and take a flyer on Turner. I wouldn't give up assets for Turner only. I think Gobert is a excellent player and I'm not sure about his fit with KP. I don't have strong feelings either way.
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12-27-2020, 02:51 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2020, 02:52 PM by SleepingHero.)
(12-27-2020, 02:26 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: If we're trying to be better, why would we compare our current team to our potential team?
I guess I'm viewing it as, does the offensive firepower and general improvement overcome the defensive drop off of the starters they'd replace.
In this case I think yes. We're already terrible defensively with THJ and Powell, might as well get players that can be good at offense. And that's not to say Lauri and Lavine are bad at defense. I think THJ and Lavine are a push, and because of Lavine's offensive talent he's the better player. Lauri has shown some defensive talent. He's come up with some timely blocks and he can at least move around the perimeter.
I for one embrace the all offense no defense approach because at the end of the day you're still getting better. Does Lavine+Lauri make the Mavs a contender? I don't think so because they're flawed themselves. But I think it's easier to get to a contender status with Lavine+Lauri than without.
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And I am fine with the Mavs making a calculated risk on Dipo+Turner if Dipo shows enough bounce back....
....I am just wanting people to be consistent in their positions and arguments. I got all sorts of crap for thinking Gobert COULD work....and yet people are so eager to dump TONS of money into Dipo+Turner who would BOTH be more risky and questionable fits than Gobert.
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12-27-2020, 02:54 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2020, 02:55 PM by dirkfansince1998.)
(12-27-2020, 02:29 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: In other words, the thought I put out there is regardless of what we have today. I think we need 3 + defending starters, we have 2 right now. We shouldn't be comparing our team to ourselves. W eshould be comparing our team to the contenders.
I don´t think it is as easy. 4 great individual defenders can still play horrible team defense with the wrong scheme. Multiple bad defenders can still play good defense with a good scheme and/or a great defensive anchor.
Good example would be the Heat. Even without Butler or Adebayo. Running lineups with Robinson, Herro, Dragic and Olynyk. They played great defense.
Bad example would be the Clippers vs the Mavs in the playoffs. PG, Kawhi, PatBev, Morris. All good defenders but they never played as a unit and couldn´t stop the Mavs.
Personally I think that the Mavs still need a glue guy. A veteran player that calls out plays, switches and rotations and/or a great help defender that can cover a lot of ground.
Right now the Mavs have Richardson (good on ball defender), DFS (slightly above average on ball defender), Maxi (versatile onball defender, good help defender), KP (elite rim protector) as high minute players that can make an impact on defense. They don´t have a Smart, RoCo, Draymond, Gobert or even a vet like CP3 or Lowry.
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(12-27-2020, 02:52 PM)Kammrath Wrote: And I am fine with the Mavs making a calculated risk on Dipo+Turner if Dipo shows enough bounce back....
....I am just wanting people to be consistent in their positions and arguments. I got all sorts of crap for thinking Gobert COULD work....and yet people are so eager to dump TONS of money into Dipo+Turner who would BOTH be more risky and questionable fits than Gobert.
I would rather have Gobert/KP tan Turner/KP, if that’s the issue. I think it’s debatable whether Turner is even a good player, and while the financial commitment would be better than the one with Gobert, it’s still way too much for a third big, so you’d be stuck trying to make Turner/KP work together. If forced to take that risk, I’d much prefer taking with Gobert.
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(12-27-2020, 02:54 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: 4 great individual defenders can still play horrible team defense with the wrong scheme. Multiple bad defenders can still play good defense with a good scheme and/or a great defensive anchor.
Very much this.
Team defense requires a sort of "hive mind" where all five guys play like one organism. It requires incredible effort and trust.
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(12-27-2020, 02:50 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: Kamm I love your passion for Gobert. I'm definitely NOT pro Turner only trade. I would take him and Dipo to get Dipo and take a flyer on Turner. I wouldn't give up assets for Turner only. I think Gobert is a excellent player and I'm not sure about his fit with KP. I don't have strong feelings either way. I think Turner is an adequate defender and has the ability to be more useful in Carlisle's offense. He can actually shoot the 3 as a big man...shot 34% last year, 39% 2 years ago. I believe those numbers can go up in Dallas with Luka giving him clean looks. In regards to his defense, he's off to a fantastic start. He's averaging 6 blocks/game through his 1st 2 games. He averaged 2 blocks/game last year, 3 blocks/game 2 years ago. But the main guy that I'm targeting is Oladipo who is infinitely better defensively than THJ and all of a sudden is starting to his 3's this year. He can attack the basket as well. He's obviously motivated to ball out this year. I just believe getting Oladipo and Turner propels us into title contention.
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(12-27-2020, 02:43 PM)Mavs03 Wrote: I like what I've seen so far from Victor Oladipo and Myles Turner. It appears Oladipo is wanting out of Indiana and the Pacers would love to get an asset from another team. Of course, that team would take on a risk because Oladipo could bolt this summer. The Pacers have been shopping Myles Turner for months now. Could we package expiring contracts in Tim Hardaway Jr, James Johnson, Tyrell Terry (young asset), and future 1st round pick for Oladipo and Turner? The fact that we're a Western Conference team helps our case as well. Assuming the trade goes through, how does this roster look? Pretty positive that if this was all they were asking for for either or both of those players then they would be gone already. For them to give up 2 of their starters, they would need to get something back. They're rumored as wanting players, not necessarily picks. The 3 team trade made earlier (I think) in this thread is much closer to what they would be wanting, but I'm not sure Horford is what they're looking for, although that could be wrong.
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12-27-2020, 03:04 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2020, 03:17 PM by KillerLeft.)
(12-27-2020, 02:59 PM)Kammrath Wrote: Very much this.
Team defense requires a sort of "hive mind" where all five guys play like one organism. It requires incredible effort and trust.
Totally agree, and I might add that it seems like that kind of trust tends to be built by teams who play together for awhile and are pretty confident they have enough talent (code for offense) to win.
My thinking is that great team defense requires a level of sacrifice that isn’t likely to be made in a situation wherein it’s unlikely to mean much.
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(12-27-2020, 02:51 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: might as well get players that can be good at offense. This is a mentality that gives us Dirk's career.
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12-27-2020, 03:11 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-27-2020, 03:11 PM by ItsGoTime.)
(12-27-2020, 02:54 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I don´t think it is as easy. 4 great individual defenders can still play horrible team defense with the wrong scheme. Multiple bad defenders can still play good defense with a good scheme and/or a great defensive anchor.
Good example would be the Heat. Even without Butler or Adebayo. Running lineups with Robinson, Herro, Dragic and Olynyk. They played great defense.
Bad example would be the Clippers vs the Mavs in the playoffs. PG, Kawhi, PatBev, Morris. All good defenders but they never played as a unit and couldn´t stop the Mavs.
Personally I think that the Mavs still need a glue guy. A veteran player that calls out plays, switches and rotations and/or a great help defender that can cover a lot of ground.
Right now the Mavs have Richardson (good on ball defender), DFS (slightly above average on ball defender), Maxi (versatile onball defender, good help defender), KP (elite rim protector) as high minute players that can make an impact on defense. They don´t have a Smart, RoCo, Draymond, Gobert or even a vet like CP3 or Lowry. I can see that. I agree that we don't have that veteran who will hold guys accountable on the court on D and that could change a lot. I have to say, RC has given lip service to defense but his player minutes still seem to be tied to their offense mostly, but it's only been 2 games so far, so I'm willing to give it more time than that.
I think the LaC as a team didn't want to be in the bubble and played accordingly, that's why they played so well during the season before covid and horrible after. I think pointing to that experience as proof of much is fools gold.
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(12-27-2020, 03:04 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: This is a mentality that gives us Dirk's career.
Zach Lavine would be a top 10 player to ever play with Dirk. So I guess the Mavs would be doing something right by getting him.
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(12-27-2020, 08:00 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: Zach Lavine would be a top 10 player to ever play with Dirk. So I guess the Mavs would be doing something right by getting him. I'm not arguing gettting 1 of the 2 to start for our team, I'm arguing getting both players to start. Get me Lavine and Gordon or Turner then I'm in love and believe they could sustain a deep playoff run. Get me Lauri and another defensive minded creator like Smart and I'll think the same.
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12-28-2020, 03:50 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2020, 03:52 AM by Mavs2019.)
(12-28-2020, 03:37 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I'm not arguing gettting 1 of the 2 to start for our team, I'm arguing getting both players to start. Get me Lavine and Gordon or Turner then I'm in love and believe they could sustain a deep playoff run. Get me Lauri and another defensive minded creator like Smart and I'll think the same. If we find a trade that nets us Lavine/Markkanen without touching Doncic, Richardson, DFS and Porzingis, I´ll worry about the rest later. We´ll have a tough time to acquire two starters (with All-Star upside) with our current assets. Best would probably be to acquire an RFA rookie with a low caphold and then try to carve out enough capspace to sign another guy. And just because I´m required by law Kammeth Gobert, obviously that RFA needs to be...
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(12-28-2020, 03:50 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: If we find a trade that nets us Lavine/Markkanen without touching Doncic, Richardson, DFS and Porzingis, I´ll worry about the rest later. First, I don't think that trade exists, but what if it does while requiring DFS?
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(12-28-2020, 04:27 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: First, I don't think that trade exists, but what if it does while requiring DFS?
I really hate to lose Dorian.
I´d have to see the trade in detail, but I wouldn´t do Kleber, DFS, Brunson, Green, Terry and a 1st. Then they can keep Markkanen and we just take Lavine. Luckily they have Patrick Williams already, so they´d probably be more into Green, Brunson and Terry, especially if Lavine is gone.
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(12-28-2020, 04:31 AM)Mavs2019 Wrote: I really hate to lose Dorian.
I´d have to see the trade in detail, but I wouldn´t do Kleber, DFS, Brunson, Green, Terry and a 1st. Then they can keep Markkanen and we just take Lavine. Luckily they have Patrick Williams already, so they´d probably be more into Green, Brunson and Terry, especially if Lavine is gone. Honestly, I'd do that deal for Lavine and WCJ. That gives you a defensive minded big to round out your starters.
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