Luka Dealt to Lakers: Nico Harrison is a Basketball Terrorist

[HoosierDaddyKid]

I mean it depends on this mysterious calf strain. I’m starting to doubt that it’s just a calf strain at this point.

What the Lakers have to be careful with at this point is. whatever is going on with his calf, doesn't develop into an Achilles injury. That's what happened to KD.

[audiosway]

I'm a fan of Stein's reporting, and usually see it as gold. But I'm very leery of his possible bias in putting out the news of a careful minutes management in a way that makes it sound like Luka has an ongoing impairment. 

Sure, Luka COULD be ailing and still slowed. Or even a bit out of "basketball shape" at this point. 

Certainly LA is going to be careful. Duh. He's valuable. 

But it feels like this is mostly just a common sense approach by LA, but Stein making it into "news" to perhaps serve as some much-needed justification for Mavs FO rash decision to get rid of him. 

So until LA FO or coach tells us that they are holding Luka back in an unusual way, I'm gonna figure it's regular basketball stuff going on.

I'm sure there is some getting him back into basketball shape. If what they say is true and that he is healed now it was probably a grade 2 strain. Supposedly, 4-8 weeks recovery. My big concern with him is the 3rd calf strain in 4 years on the same calf. And they get more severe each time.

[Dahlsim]

What the Lakers have to be careful with at this point is. whatever is going on with his calf, doesn't develop into an Achilles injury. That's what happened to KD.

The calf situation is interesting as is AD's groin.   The age difference between the 2 All stars is what jumps out to the world naturally.  Doncic being a 25 year old MVP caliber player with 6 years of age difference is the shot heard round the world but both players being gimpy with injuries is not a small consideration in the trade dynamics. 

How "recurrable" exactly is Doncic's calf?  Word I heard was that his issue was that didn't stay out long enough to let it heal completely.  Is that being handled now properly by just avoiding back to backs?   
What about AD?  How "recurrable" is his injury?    Did both teams try and sell each other the proverbial "pig in a poke"?  

If the Mavs really were concerned that Doncic's calf might be a problem all season and perhaps even longer then you have to consider again the pending Supermax.  It might start to add up at least as to why the GM might feel an obligation to shop the possibilities.  
Of course it still doesn't speak to the failure to shop the market for the highest bidder, but it does raise some possibilities that supermax Luka for life might have worked out if recurring injury was a real concern. The Sixers for example look to be in shambles at this point with Max Embiid. 

Then I'm starting, just a little bit to consider Nico bringing back this 21-year-old player, Max Christie, who shows signs of being at least an elite role player with upside possibilities that could be even higher.  
https://thesmokingcuban.com/max-christie...icks-favor 

The end result of Nico's gambit still hinges on AD getting healthy along with a healthy roster to see what he envisioned, but the possibility of recurring injury with Doncic is at least opening the door for a reconsideration that maybe this trade wasn't quite as disastrously lopsided as it appears.

[michaeltex]

How "recurrable" exactly is Doncic's calf?  Word I heard was that his issue was that didn't stay out long enough to let it heal completely.  Is that being handled now properly by just avoiding back to backs?   
What about AD?  How "recurrable" is his injury?    Did both teams try and sell each other the proverbial "pig in a poke"?  

I have wondered this myself and have been thinking about the timeline.

As I recall, Luka had the calf injury bothering him last spring, I don't remember when it started, but he said he just had to play through it until he got the time off to let it heal naturally. So he limps through all four playoff series and doesn't get to quit until mid-June. By which time he's acquired other aches and pains (ribs, knee, shoulder(?)).

Then off to Slovenia and a few weeks later, despite being beaten up after playing a long NBA season, he's playing with the national team in the Olympic qualifier, but is eliminated after a few games on July 6th.

So, in theory, he had from early July until October 1st, the best part of 3 months, to rehab the calf and get it right for this season. But he wasn't in camp a week before it was announced there was another problem with his calf. He got "kicked" in practice, (smelled fishy at the time to me TBH), but it cost him the rest of pre-season and working with several new teammates.
 
So when he DID start playing, it was back to the same old, high usage, give Luka the ball and see if he can amaze us once again. But apparently the injury still wasn't healed and it blew up on him again.

I love watching him play and I'll try to watch him no matter where he lands, but I get why the MBT felt like it was better to cut bait before getting hung committing to $70MM/yr. If Giannis was not available, I'm not sure there is anybody else better and available than AD as a trade chip. Not happy with the return, but Christie's play helps and I'm thinking AD might be unstoppable when paired with Dlive, PJ, Kyrie, Klay and Max.

Sorry if this is a little jumbled. Kind of stream of thought typing...

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

I hope Luka continues and grows into a top 5 player alltime. I will get no joy from Nico being correct.

[audiosway]

I have wondered this myself and have been thinking about the timeline.

As I recall, Luka had the calf injury bothering him last spring, I don't remember when it started, but he said he just had to play through it until he got the time off to let it heal naturally. So he limps through all four playoff series and doesn't get to quit until mid-June. By which time he's acquired other aches and pains (ribs, knee, shoulder(?)).

Then off to Slovenia and a few weeks later, despite being beaten up after playing a long NBA season, he's playing with the national team in the Olympic qualifier, but is eliminated after a few games on July 6th.

So, in theory, he had from early July until October 1st, the best part of 3 months, to rehab the calf and get it right for this season. But he wasn't in camp a week before it was announced there was another problem with his calf. He got "kicked" in practice, (smelled fishy at the time to me TBH), but it cost him the rest of pre-season and working with several new teammates.
 
So when he DID start playing, it was back to the same old, high usage, give Luka the ball and see if he can amaze us once again. But apparently the injury still wasn't healed and it blew up on him again.

I love watching him play and I'll try to watch him no matter where he lands, but I get why the MBT felt like it was better to cut bait before getting hung committing to $70MM/yr. If Giannis was not available, I'm not sure there is anybody else better and available than AD as a trade chip. Not happy with the return, but Christie's play helps and I'm thinking AD might be unstoppable when paired with Dlive, PJ, Kyrie, Klay and Max.

Sorry if this is a little jumbled. Kind of stream of thought typing...

Not jumbled. This is actually what I've been thinking.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

Bottom line, it's all about that SuperMax deal. They weren't going to commit that much money to a player that was nonchalant about his conditioning and diet. And also, it would hamper them from building out the roster around him. Boston is a good example. Tatum and Brown have max deals. They're window for winning another title is going to close within the next 2 years, and they're currently for sale because of those huge deals and their role players, White, KP, Pritchard, Holiday, etc. It's not sustainable.

[mvossman]

Bottom line, it's all about that SuperMax deal. They weren't going to commit that much money to a player that was nonchalant about his conditioning and diet. And also, it would hamper them from building out the roster around him. Boston is a good example. Tatum and Brown have max deals. They're window for winning another title is going to close within the next 2 years, and they're currently for sale because of those huge deals and their role players, White, KP, Pritchard, Holiday, etc. It's not sustainable.

This argument would have more weight if he didn't trade Luka for 2 1/2 years of supermax on a much older player with injury history.  It will have even less weight if he trades most of the team for a 37 year old on another supermax.

[KillerLeft]

This argument would have more weight if he didn't trade Luka for 2 1/2 years of supermax on a much older player with injury history.  It will have even less weight if he trades most of the team for a 37 year old on another supermax.

You're focused on comparison: the Luka path vs. The AD path. And to be fair, looking at that comparison is probably a valid thing to do. 

But, I think it's more of an if/then progression. 

I think they had decided that no matter what, they didn't want to be in the business of giving Luka 5 years at $345 million. Then, they decided (rightfully so, I'm sure) that he wouldn't accept anything less without creating a huge mess here and probably demanding a trade. THEN, I think they looked around and identified AD as the way to move forward. 

If they were out on Luka, then they thought it best to get "out in front of things" to use Harrison's own words. If they were going to trade him, then AD was a guy they thought they could get (partly because LA is a team they thought would believe it could keep Luka). 

I continue to believe that if Luka has the career we hoped, there WAS no trade that would've satiated our blood lust. If they're right about Luka not being worth the Supermax, this trade won't look so bad, in hindsight. It's really that simple for me in the end. I have no prediction, but I'm comfortable with the logic of it and I'm trying to keep an open mind.

[F Gump]

This argument would have more weight if he didn't trade Luka for 2 1/2 years of supermax on a much older player with injury history.  It will have even less weight if he trades most of the team for a 37 year old on another supermax.

With DAL/Nico, they never said they have an issue with paying the supermax itself. They've explicitly made it clear. They just couldn't justify committing to LUKA that huge amount, and in so doing being on the hook to him for SIX seasons, in light of his questionable personal habits for an elite athlete, and his apparent unwillingness to alter them.

No other player would be putting that sort of financial noose around the Mavs neck (not just the amount in a year, but the extreme number of years too.)

[LukaMVP]

it makes sense that they traded a player they thought they'd lose to free agency in a year anyway, but this presumes the player they decided to trade wasn't worth the supermax, otherwise they would've just given him the supermax to keep his service in Dallas for another five years. luka, despite all the flaws, is still one of the few players who are actually worth the supermax imho. apparently luka's value in nico's eyes is not nearly as high as that in most fans' and the market's eyes, and that is one reason why the return looked so hilariously poor. maybe Nico knows more about the situation, or maybe Nico is just an idiot.

[mvossman]

With DAL/Nico, they never said they have an issue with paying the supermax itself. They've explicitly made it clear. They just couldn't justify committing to LUKA that huge amount, and in so doing being on the hook to him for SIX seasons, in light of his questionable personal habits for an elite athlete, and his apparent unwillingness to alter them.

No other player would be putting that sort of financial noose around the Mavs neck (not just the amount in a year, but the extreme number of years too.)

When you talk about that noose, I would argue that going all in for the short term and then going into a 4+ year window where you have no control of your first round picks is at least as big of a noose.  

This is why AD is not the direction I would have gone, although I do realize there were limitations to what teams made sense to trade with.  If they continue to build around AD/Kyrie with young pieces then I may back off this stance, but if they send most of their young players and future assets for KD then this argument that they were concerned about the future will hold no water for me.

[KillerLeft]

When you talk about that noose, I would argue that going all in for the short term and then going into a 4+ year window where you have no control of your first round picks is at least as big of a noose.  

I think this is a valid point, too, which makes me wonder how they soured on Luka so thoroughly. 

I'm not saying Harrison is infallible - far from it - but I also don't think he's a moron. He mortgaged that 4+ year window you're referring to in an effort to build around Luka, specifically, so I don't buy for a second that he's been wanting to pull this rug for very long. I think he had an internal clock (or a literal clock, considering the impending extension eligibility) on a maturation process and finally just decided it was never going to happen. 

I think Smitty said it the best last week. We were discussing what type of event it would take for Luka to see how important proactive focus on his health and fitness was to his career, and Smitty said something like "reaching the Finals and losing badly certainly didn't do it." That, right there, is what happened, imo. I think Luka showed up for the season out of shape AGAIN, and this time worse than ever before, and any/all momentum that the team should have carried with it from last year dissipated. It might have been the wrong choice on the team's part not to fight through it again, but I bet a ton of people were super frustrated by that.

[Smitty]

It’s certainly discouraging when we all think of Luka as a psycho competitor and the one time he reaches the finals and gets embarrassed, it doesn’t make him hungry to come back and be the best version of himself.

I haven’t weighed in much on the topic because others here have said what I’ve been thinking in one way or the other. Ultimately, I’m a fan of Luka and hope he goes on to be one of the greats. It’s taken other greats time for it to click. Even a 50% Luka is damn good, so I’ll be watching.

[Winter]

I think this is a valid point, too, which makes me wonder how they soured on Luka so thoroughly. 

I'm not saying Harrison is infallible - far from it - but I also don't think he's a moron. He mortgaged that 4+ year window you're referring to in an effort to build around Luka, specifically, so I don't buy for a second that he's been wanting to pull this rug for very long. I think he had an internal clock (or a literal clock, considering the impending extension eligibility) on a maturation process and finally just decided it was never going to happen. 

I think Smitty said it the best last week. We were discussing what type of event it would take for Luka to see how important proactive focus on his health and fitness was to his career, and Smitty said something like "reaching the Finals and losing badly certainly didn't do it." That, right there, is what happened, imo. I think Luka showed up for the season out of shape AGAIN, and this time worse than ever before, and any/all momentum that the team should have carried with it from last year dissipated. It might have been the wrong choice on the team's part not to fight through it again, but I bet a ton of people were super frustrated by that.

I think that's a good take on it. The average fan never knew the full context of "why" at the outset, but I have a hard time believing that Nico's reasoning was sudden. I think this has been percolating a whole lot longer than we imagine, and I suspect there were other people consulted about his behavior even if they weren't in on the trade details.

I suspect the Mavericks had been hitting a brick wall with his conditioning and giving him more money wasn't going to change that. His weight is not the kind of thing the Mavericks make public. You can't shame him. So what are the options? Is it a disservice to know this problem and still pay him the supermax? Is that what the owners want?

The trade itself is one thing. The return on the trade is another thing. I'm more in the dark there. But I'm at a place now where I can see the initial dilemma.

[F Gump]

I think this is a valid point, too, which makes me wonder how they soured on Luka so thoroughly. 

I'm not saying Harrison is infallible - far from it - but I also don't think he's a moron. He mortgaged that 4+ year window you're referring to in an effort to build around Luka, specifically, so I don't buy for a second that he's been wanting to pull this rug for very long. I think he had an internal clock (or a literal clock, considering the impending extension eligibility) on a maturation process and finally just decided it was never going to happen. 

I think Smitty said it the best last week. We were discussing what type of event it would take for Luka to see how important proactive focus on his health and fitness was to his career, and Smitty said something like "reaching the Finals and losing badly certainly didn't do it." That, right there, is what happened, imo. I think Luka showed up for the season out of shape AGAIN, and this time worse than ever before, and any/all momentum that the team should have carried with it from last year dissipated. It might have been the wrong choice on the team's part not to fight through it again, but I bet a ton of people were super frustrated by that.

"reaching the Finals and losing badly certainly didn't do it."

To build on the above a bit, Luka ended the playoffs last year a bit impaired, but there was the implied promise that he had 3 1/2 months to heal and get his body right. INSTEAD, he played in the Olympics, getting banged up further, but still had time to work on getting healed - and then a couple months later came to camp in even worse shape than when he had left in the summer, from what I've read.

It wasn't just that he showed up out of shape this season, but also that he had been given a window of opportunity to work on what was broken, and didn't care to do so. He apparently didn't even try. That's really bad.

A million posts ago in all this head-scratching and discussion over trying to make sense of what's happened, someone made an observation about Luka's essential refusal to do what is necessary on his conditioning and off-court work on his game that really resonated to me, which I'm paraphrasing: We are upset about how the Mavs could be so disloyal to Luka. But loyalty is a two-way street.

And I think that's where I am. A Luka who doesn't want to take the needed personal actions isn't really all-in on the team and its success. FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, it's easy to see why the Mavs FO wouldn't want to commit the next half dozen years being subject to his undedicated whims, especially when his style of play, and his contract, will make his personal improvement the absolute determiner of whether they can succeed or not.

[Smitty]

By the way, Killer, I think you’ve done a fantastic job of expressing your take on the thought process that was involved with this deal. You’ve been very rational and thorough when working your way through it all. The reading material has been top notch and pulled me down from the ledge at times. Appreciate your continued contribution to the board!

[Reunion Mav]

By the way, Killer, I think you’ve done a fantastic job of expressing your take on the thought process that was involved with this deal. You’ve been very rational and thorough when working your way through it all. The reading material has been top notch and pulled me down from the ledge at times. Appreciate your continued contribution to the board!

I truly second this.

[DallasMaverick]

It’s certainly discouraging when we all think of Luka as a psycho competitor and the one time he reaches the finals and gets embarrassed, it doesn’t make him hungry to come back and be the best version of himself.

I haven’t weighed in much on the topic because others here have said what I’ve been thinking in one way or the other. Ultimately, I’m a fan of Luka and hope he goes on to be one of the greats. It’s taken other greats time for it to click. Even a 50% Luka is damn good, so I’ll be watching.

They aren’t in the same class, but I always loved watching Jason “white chocolate” Williams and Allen Iverson.

Neither was very efficient offensively, neither was very good defensively, but you could count on at least one SportsCenter highlight every time they played.

Luka has the same electricity. Did you see that behind-the-back pass to Austin Reaves?!?

[KillerLeft]

Thanks for the kind words, friends. I just re-skimmed this entire thread and it's crazy to read us all work through the grief over time. My own feelings have flipped/changed significantly since the news dropped. I think having this community and a space to vent about it has helped me a great deal.

What a crazy, crazy time to be a Mavs fan.