FA: Klay Thompson Comes to Dallas| 3yrs/50mil

[The Jom]

That's not really what we're talking about. 

It's about what he does AFTER he gives up the ball. Nobody is calling him selfish.

Lazy then? I’m pretty unimpressed with Legler’s take. I see no indication that Luka is unwilling to do what the coaches ask of him.

[KillerLeft]

Lazy then? I’m pretty unimpressed with Legler’s take. I see no indication that Luka is unwilling to do what the coaches ask of him.

Nah, not lazy, either, though I'd say that's closer. 

I think what Legler is saying is that when someone is as good as Luka at being "the system" and have been for basically all of his life, it's probably a hard sell to convince him that he's best served by giving up the ball (as part of a change in philosophy, not in a ''selfish or unselfish" way) and trusting the system to put everyone in the best chance to succeed. 

Legler isn't AT ALL criticizing Luka, at least not in the way (I think) you mean. I don't think he meant any of that analysis as a criticism at all. I just think the Harden comparisons (which are apt, from that angle) are deflating, a little. That's my reaction to it, as someone who wants to see a better, more interesting offense, not his intent.

Weaponizing your skill without the ball is a next level skillset, and can be difficult for some of these superstars to learn or buy into. He's comparing Luka to Harden because they're the two best modern examples of players soooooo good at the heliocentric offensive style that it's hard to convince the fans or even the player, himself,  that it has a ceiling. It took Jordan a long, long time to figure this out, just as an example. These guys are ultra competitive, so to say they want the ball when times get tough, even to a fault, isn't necessarily the same as calling them "selfish," although sometimes that's the case. I agree with you that it's not Luka's problem.

Back to why I think "lazy" might be closer...I definitely don't think Luka is lazy at all. But, I think he does get tired before his opponents do pretty often. Mix THAT in, the whole conditioning argument we've been having for years, and basically, what Legler is saying makes sense. It's no good to try to run off-ball motion or any type of serious offense if, while Luka doesn't have the ball, he's going to use the time to rest. That has been what I've observed during the small percentage of time the Mavs have played that way, recently, and it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Luka doesn't WANT to play off-ball because he thinks it's a lesser choice and then he doesn't go all out, then it IS a lesser choice. 

Omahen, Kevin O'Conner and others who followed Luka's European career have mentioned that Luka demonstrated great willingness and skill to play effectively off-ball when he was younger, and he had some nice off-ball moments during his rookie season, before Carlisle decided he was a PG.  That means it's not an understanding thing (maybe it is with Harden, not sure). I just hope Kidd, the Mavs and especially Luka are going to start adding some wrinkles to this really antiquated and predictable offense, and it's pretty undeniable that they have enough talent to do so now. If fact, if they don't, I'd argue that going away from defense, even just the little distance they did, might end up being a costly error. But, if Thompson, PJ, Marshall and Lively are all integrated into the offense in a way where people touch the ball, get into rhythm, and the ball MOVES, this team can get to another level, imo. But, Luka has to want that to happen and trust that it will work. 

This is a deep-dive, basketball nerd conversation Smitty and I are having, not a Luka-bashing conversation. Sorry if it came off that way.

[KillerLeft]

A really good example of what we're talking about that will pull this into focus right away is Trae Young. Dude averaged like 25 and 10 last season but his team sucked and nobody wants him. With HIM, it might be about "selfish," although I wouldn't be comfortable declaring that unless I watched him much more than I have. Again, ATL literally tried to trade him this summer and couldn't do it. I don't think they tried to give him away like the Bulls with LaVine, but they traded Murray because they got better offers for him than they did for Young, and the package they got for Murray wasn't anything to write home about.

Every one of these smart basketball guys says the same thing about Trae Young when it comes up: his contract is huge and if you trade for him he becomes your whole offense. You have to completely morph into what he wants it to be. Casual Trae Young homers don't see this as a negative, but even moderately interested hoop fans can tell after a while that a team won't ever win a championship with him playing that way, right?

That's kind of the same thing with Harden and with Luka. They're both so ridiculously better than Trae (thinking of prime Harden more than current Harden) that their teams were GOOD playing that way. But so far, it doesn't really seem like any team that plays like that has been GREAT. Unanimously, these ex-players will all say how difficult it is to be in a rhythm and at your best when you never know if/when you're going to touch the ball.

Think back to the 2011 Mavs. Basketball has changed a lot since then, but some things never change, and that's probably the best team most of us have watched night in and night out in our entire lives. Think about how much the ball moved on that team. Jason Kidd was the PG, and he might have had the ball the least out of everyone, in a weird way. They all knew what each others' strengths were, who needed the ball where and when, etc. There was designed intent in how the offense worked, and not just to spam the same advantage over and over.

I don't think Luka should play like 38 year old Jason Kidd, that's not the message. I just wish he understood what 38 year old Jason Kidd understood. Making it to the finals and getting embarrassed (I don't think Luka has anything to be embarrassed about, don't get me wrong, but the offense was a joke in that series) is probably one of the best possible teachers. I'm really happy the team had that experience, and when I see the Mavs taking the steps they're taking this off-season (even if they aren't the exact moves we think they should've made) I see recognition that something has to change on the offensive side of the ball. I hope Luka is on that same page, that's all.

[The Jom]

No offense taken. I simply disagree. Of course he’s resting when off ball during playoff run averaging 41 mins. That’s a 2011 Dirk strategy, one of many I’m sure Kidd recalls well and likely instructs. When we couldn’t stay competitive while resting Dirk on the bench, we tried resting him on the court while JJB ran the show.

Good strategy this year? Bad strategy? I can see evidence supporting either argument. And I’m sure the coaches are rethinking every decision they made, searching for improvement wherever they can find it.

But Legs says it will be tough to get Luka to buy in if the coaches want him to play more non-resting minutes off ball. That’s what I’m calling bullshit on. There is zero evidence that Luka is resistant in that kind of way. And there’s no way I can agree that the suggestion (Legler’s, not yours) isn’t insulting.

[KillerLeft]

No offense taken. I simply disagree. Of course he’s resting when off ball during playoff run averaging 41 mins. That’s a 2011 Dirk strategy, one of many I’m sure Kidd recalls well and likely instructs. When we couldn’t stay competitive while resting Dirk on the bench, we tried resting him on the court while JJB ran the show.

Good strategy this year? Bad strategy? I can see evidence supporting either argument. And I’m sure the coaches are rethinking every decision they made, searching for improvement wherever they can find it.

But Legs says it will be tough to get Luka to buy in if the coaches want him to play more non-resting minutes off ball. That’s what I’m calling bullshit on. There is zero evidence that Luka is resistant in that kind of way. And there’s no way I can agree that the suggestion (Legler’s, not yours) isn’t insulting.

Yeah, we're still not really having the same conversation, and I don't think that's what Legler meant at all, but that's ok. No biggie.

[The Jom]

Yeah, I wrote that before reading your second response. Which is a whole nother conversation I disagree with. You’re obviously a smart dude. But I can’t figure out why you think anything on the offensive side of the ball has a darn thing to do with teams not wanting Trae. It’s 100% about the other end. 100%.

[KillerLeft]

I feel like it'd be much more an indictment of Kidd and his crew if they don't implement more motion

This is true, too, btw. I meant to respond to this but forgot. At the end of the day, if his stuff isn't sophisticated enough, it's on him. And, if Luka is the reason it's not more sophisticated (which as Jom is saying, is an assumption), then it's up to Kidd to teach/convince him. 

I hated the hire and have complained about it a lot, but now that the team is here, I actually think he might be the right guy to help Luka get to the next level. 

Can't wait for this season. It feels like a pivotal one for the team in more than one way.

[F Gump]

Luka's Kryptonite imo continues to be his shooting from 3 and FTs. And he does a lot of both. BOS exploited that.

What would take DAL to a whole new level would be Luka becoming a deadly 3-pt shooter, and a knock-down FT'er. If he doesn't, it will continue to be an Achilles heel.

[KillerLeft]

Luka's Kryptonite imo continues to be his shooting from 3 and FTs. And he does a lot of both. BOS exploited that.

What would take DAL to a whole new level would be Luka becoming a deadly 3-pt shooter, and a knock-down FT'er. If he doesn't, it will continue to be an Achilles heel.

Man, the free throw shooting getting to an elite level (while he's still dominant enough to draw fouls at this rate) would be a pretty big boost.

[SleepingHero]

I just listened to Draymond Green's latest podcast going over his thoughts on this free agency and of course Klay's decision.

Out of the 50 minute podcast, 45 minutes were spent on Klay, the last 5 was basically bullet points on all the moves around the league.

All I gotta say is that Draymond sounded HURT. He was dejected the entire time I was listening. You could hear it in his voice. He also said it very clearly how he was brought to tears many times throughout the week realizing that the Warriors era was over.

The first 25 minutes was him rambling and jumping from thought to thought. He was happy that Klay had a new opportunity, but was shell shocked that he wouldn't be sharing the court with him.

The last 20 minutes was him going over just how good of a player and teammate Klay was. How he admired his grit and desire to win. How no matter what he wanted to play regardless of his injuries.

Needless to say, Klay leaving was a bombshell on the Warriors as a whole. Not only the fans, but the players as well.

[SkenfromLMF]

People in GS knew there was an issue, but I can imagine Green believing that ownership/FO would work this thing out with Klay.
When it didn't, I would wager that there is some guilt in Dray's self-conscience today. One of the primary reasons there was not enough salad to go around was the helping that Green consumed on his last contract. Green is making a near 10 million more per year than Klay on this contract.

[KillerLeft]

People in GS knew there was an issue, but I can imagine Green believing that ownership/FO would work this thing out with Klay.
When it didn't, I would wager that there is some guilt in Dray's self-conscience today. One of the primary reasons there was not enough salad to go around was the helping that Green consumed on his last contract. Green is making a near 10 million more per year than Klay on this contract.

He talked about his own past free agency briefly on the pod SH is referencing, though he stopped short of making that connection. I bet you're right though.

[Dundalis]

From what im hearing about Klay's defense last season is that while his POA defense has fallen off significantly, he's actually been quite solid defending bigger, slower wings.

I'm wondering whether the potential for Grimes getting back to what he was his second season in the league with the Knicks (he was so good, Knicks made him untouchable in a potential Donovan Mitchell trade), whether that opens up the possibility of moving Klay to the 4 with Grimes at the 3, and PJ off the bench. PJ is great, but that potential possibility opens up a few things. It brings a good POA defender into the starting unit, allows Klay to guard players he's more comfortable guarding, and it means you now 4 deep threats you can't sag off (maybe PJ works super hard on his shooting and gets back to his shooting efficiency he showed his second year in the league, but this is just going off his current form). Or Naji Marshall shows he can actually handle POA defense better than some think and he shows his shooting last season is real.

But it's something to think about as I think most people have PJ locked for the starter spot at the 4, but if his shooting doesn't get better, and Naji and/or Grimes really show out, the above scenarios taking place over the course of the season could really resolve numerous defensive and offensive gaps that people are currently questioning.

Also when are we likely to hear about what the final trades are in terms of what the Hornets are sending out for Green?

[Chicagojk]

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2024/7/2/2...-mavericks

[Smitty]

From what im hearing about Klay's defense last season is that while his POA defense has fallen off significantly, he's actually been quite solid defending bigger, slower wings.

I'm wondering whether the potential for Grimes getting back to what he was his second season in the league with the Knicks (he was so good, Knicks made him untouchable in a potential Donovan Mitchell trade), whether that opens up the possibility of moving Klay to the 4 with Grimes at the 3, and PJ off the bench. PJ is great, but that potential possibility opens up a few things. It brings a good POA defender into the starting unit, allows Klay to guard players he's more comfortable guarding, and it means you now 4 deep threats you can't sag off (maybe PJ works super hard on his shooting and gets back to his shooting efficiency he showed his second year in the league, but this is just going off his current form). Or Naji Marshall shows he can actually handle POA defense better than some think and he shows his shooting last season is real.

But it's something to think about as I think most people have PJ locked for the starter spot at the 4, but if his shooting doesn't get better, and Naji and/or Grimes really show out, the above scenarios taking place over the course of the season could really resolve numerous defensive and offensive gaps that people are currently questioning.

Interesting thought here Dundalis. One I hadn't thought of.. It obviously won't be a Game 1 thing but down the line it could be an option for sure. It's a lot easier to see these types of lineup combinations when you think of Luka as Forward on defense.

OFF                    DEF
PG      Luka          PF
SG      Kyrie         SG
SF     Grimes        PG
PF      Klay           SF
C       Lively          C


One thing I keep coming back to is just how deep and versatile this Mavs team is now. Lot of different lineup combinations for Kidd to try throughout the year before finding a few that stick and can get this team over the hump!

[Smitty]

Good article by Sam Amick on the Klay-Mavs meeting.

https://archive.ph/EPMfS

[SleepingHero]

That's kind of the same thing with Harden and with Luka. They're both so ridiculously better than Trae (thinking of prime Harden more than current Harden) that their teams were GOOD playing that way. But so far, it doesn't really seem like any team that plays like that has been GREAT. Unanimously, these ex-players will all say how difficult it is to be in a rhythm and at your best when you never know if/when you're going to touch the ball.

This is a very good video highlighting exactly what you're talking about. But I disagree that Luka won't ever win a championship playing that way. There are a lot of ways to be successful in basketball. There are 2 distinct styles, iso-ball vs. ball-movement that have basically dominated the league the last 10 years.

Luka has done it better than anyone ever has at iso-ball. And that's not a bad thing. Even on an injured leg, Luka's talent (and this teams roster construction) still mowed through the West and made the Finals. Something Harden was never able to do. 

Klay is a product of one of the most beautiful offenses of all-time. Pure chaos. Can the Mavs add some of that? Of course. I have no doubts Luka can do that. He literally won MVP, a championship, AND Eurobasket playing that way with Real Madrid and Slovenia.

[michaeltex]

I'd like to suggest something related to the comments above about the "Luka-centric" offense and how DAL needs to diversify for continued growth and success.

I agree with the thrust of the comments. The new additions, coupled with the remaining core players, provides an opportunity for the coaching staff to implement new wrinkles to expand the offense so DAL doesn't get handled like BOS did. And getting Luka to buy in to these changes is key to their success.

I'm not saying his buy-in is an issue. The problem is he's going to have to experience the success rather than just accepting it intellectually. My point is that, for his entire NBA career, it has required his individual greatness to lift the team to where it is today. We have all seen the bricks launched after an amazing Luka pass gets a wide open shot. So far, his experience tells him that, if he doesn't get it done, odds are nobody else will. Kyrie helped a lot last year, but wasn't really dependable in the playoffs and (TBH) we spent the whole season holding our collective breath about Ky getting injured.

So my premise is that Luka can be the player described above. In fact, he needs to be that player, even if it's preserving himself for the long haul. But to internalize his new role, he's going to have to believe that the rest of the squad will hold up their end of the deal. So I think Kidd & Co. will evolve the team, but it's not going to happen on October 22nd and there may be some ugly games early in the season as everybody gets their roles figured out.

[The Jom]

From what im hearing about Klay's defense last season is that while his POA defense has fallen off significantly, he's actually been quite solid defending bigger, slower wings.

I'm wondering whether the potential for Grimes getting back to what he was his second season in the league with the Knicks (he was so good, Knicks made him untouchable in a potential Donovan Mitchell trade), whether that opens up the possibility of moving Klay to the 4 with Grimes at the 3, and PJ off the bench. PJ is great, but that potential possibility opens up a few things. It brings a good POA defender into the starting unit, allows Klay to guard players he's more comfortable guarding, and it means you now 4 deep threats you can't sag off (maybe PJ works super hard on his shooting and gets back to his shooting efficiency he showed his second year in the league, but this is just going off his current form). Or Naji Marshall shows he can actually handle POA defense better than some think and he shows his shooting last season is real.

But it's something to think about as I think most people have PJ locked for the starter spot at the 4, but if his shooting doesn't get better, and Naji and/or Grimes really show out, the above scenarios taking place over the course of the season could really resolve numerous defensive and offensive gaps that people are currently questioning.

Also when are we likely to hear about what the final trades are in terms of what the Hornets are sending out for Green?

Good point! 

Wonder if Klay might prove adept at defending most 4s (KAT, Chet, probably not Gordon) and PJ will start on Shai, Ant, etc. 

Also, Kyrie’s game in many ways is a perfect fit for 6th man. Only he’s way too great for that role. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him sub out very early and come back in a super-sub-type role. Especially if he’s asked to start the game defending POAs.

[Smitty]

REPORT: “Thompson, well aware that the $43 million he earned last season with Golden State did not buy his happiness, chose Dallas mostly because he saw it as his best chance to win a fifth title.”