AROUND the NBA:

[dirkfansince1998]

I disagree with this. First, to say "did more", well, you might have been able to say that if Kobe only won 2 titles to Dirk's 1 title... but the guy won 5 titles or 5 times as many. Second, Dirk was also blessed with plenty of riches when it came to team-mates who were among the best in the league on offense. He had continuity with those players and no ego-drama too (like Shaq). Strangely enough, he did however lack a great big (which you only say Kobe needed, lol) to be a strong rim-protector and pick and roll partner. Still, to say that Dirk did more with less is another fallacy IMO. Look at the team-mates... Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion... and the plethora of other vets that Cuban brought to the Mavs to serve as backups (Keith van Horn, Nick van Excel, Juwan Howard, Tim Hardaway Sr, Travis Best, Cedric Ceballos, Tony Delk, Antoine Walker, etc, etc). Kobe went on chucking sprees because he didn't always have as much offensive talent next to him in every position. The reason people don't remember guys like Finley, Stackhouse, Josh Howard now (as good as they were then), is simply because they couldn't win rings with Dirk. That's why people remember players like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Brian Shaw instead, even though they weren't good enough to be mentioned in the same breath as Finley and Stackhouse. Even Pau Gasol, was he really a better player than those two, or is that how we remember Pau now because he won titles next to Kobe?


Please stop saying Duncan/Hakeem, as if they are equals... Hakeem was just on a whole other level to Duncan. If Hakeem played for the Spurs, I think they would've won more than they did with Duncan, 2-3 titles more IMO. I have Hakeem in my Top 5, Kobe in my Top 10. Duncan is in the 11-15 range, with others like Garnett, Dirk, Steph, Jokic.

Duncan from 1997-98 to 2003-04, I agree, he would be a better player to build a team around than Kobe. From 2004-05 onwards though, once Kobe took off and Duncan slowed down, I think it would be much easier to build a contending team around Kobe. For Duncan to be the guy you build a team around, you would need a top-level PG AND either a top-level SG or SF. With Kobe, all I would need is a specific type of big like Tyson Chandler (who is most definitely not a top level Center of all time), and competent players that can defend and space the floor.

Here's a thought exercise, think up an SG equivalent to Tyson Chandler. As a starting point, we'll put that guy next to Duncan, and we'll put Tyson Chandler next to Kobe... and then build out the 2 teams from there, with vet-minimum (or MLE) players.

So...

Prime Kobe vs Prime Duncan
+ Tyson Chandler vs SG Equivalent of Tyson Chandler (i.e., not Manu Ginobli)
+ Vet-min PG vs Vet-min PG (i.e., not Tony Parker)
+ Vet-min SF vs Vet-min SF
+ Vet-min PF vs Vet-min PF

Who wins?

I think Kobe wins more with less... and I'm having Duncan switch on to Kobe every time, for a laugh. I'd have Dirk switch on to Kobe every time too, that would be even more fun.


Well, if we can get Cooper Flagg next summer, I will naturally have to set aside my man-love for Luka and return to greener pastures.

Collier, Keyonte, Cody, Coop, Hendricks/Kessler... could be the start of something special. 

Until then, you're stuck with me.

We know how Kobe looked with a mediocre supporting cast. We know how Dirk and Duncan looked with mediocre supporting cast. It's not a think about it situation. No need to imagine things. It happened. Kobe is the only one among the mentioned guys that missed the playoffs in his prime. Only one that won less than 50 games multiple times.
I am not sure how it is controversial to say that when Kobe won it all he had great supporting cast. Better than everything Dirk ever had. Better than most Spurs teams of the 00s and 10s. If you just want to throw around names and act like past their prime players like Marion, Kidd or Stackhouse belong in the same conversation as guys that played that actually made all-NBA and all-defense teams when they played on the Lakers I don't really no how to respond. Just have to accept that we don't live in the same reality.

If you think that Finley or Stackhouse were as good as Gasol you simply have no clue. Nothing else to say. Among all the garbage you come up with this is easily top three on the worst takes list. You are going to be suprised if you look at the advanced stats of Gasol from 08-11. He is closer to Kobe than any player that ever played on the Mavs next to Dirk. Legit all-NBA big. Not a suprise because he was the franchise player and first option for the Grizzlies before he joined the Lakers.

Not to even mention Shaq. The best player on the 98-04 Lakers. The MVP and FMVP. The one that I would actually include in the conversation with Duncan and Olajuwon.

Not evens sure what the last part is all about. We saw Duncan with a mediocre supporting cast. Saw him win it all in 2003. I already gave you the details. But I guess you can act as if he played with prime Parker, Ginobili and Robinson. Not the rookie/geriatric versions.
Repeating myself. 2003 Duncan is better than any version of Kobe. Had a legit GOAT level season. Still 1st in all time playoff WS. 2nd in all time playoff VORP. Leading his team in pts/ast/reb/blk in the playoffs. Beating the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. Rightfully earning both MVP and FMVP.