AROUND the NBA:

[MarkAguirreWrathofGod]

I disagree with this. First, to say "did more", well, you might have been able to say that if Kobe only won 2 titles to Dirk's 1 title... but the guy won 5 titles or 5 times as many. Second, Dirk was also blessed with plenty of riches when it came to team-mates who were among the best in the league on offense. He had continuity with those players and no ego-drama too (like Shaq). Strangely enough, he did however lack a great big (which you only say Kobe needed, lol) to be a strong rim-protector and pick and roll partner. Still, to say that Dirk did more with less is another fallacy IMO. Look at the team-mates... Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion... and the plethora of other vets that Cuban brought to the Mavs to serve as backups (Keith van Horn, Nick van Excel, Juwan Howard, Tim Hardaway Sr, Travis Best, Cedric Ceballos, Tony Delk, Antoine Walker, etc, etc). Kobe went on chucking sprees because he didn't always have as much offensive talent next to him in every position. The reason people don't remember guys like Finley, Stackhouse, Josh Howard now (as good as they were then), is simply because they couldn't win rings with Dirk. That's why people remember players like Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Brian Shaw instead, even though they weren't good enough to be mentioned in the same breath as Finley and Stackhouse. Even Pau Gasol, was he really a better player than those two, or is that how we remember Pau now because he won titles next to Kobe?


Please stop saying Duncan/Hakeem, as if they are equals... Hakeem was just on a whole other level to Duncan. If Hakeem played for the Spurs, they would've won more than they did with Duncan, at least 2-3 titles more IMO. I have Hakeem in my Top 5, Kobe in my Top 10. Duncan is in the 11-15 range, with others like Garnett, Dirk, Steph, Jokic.

Duncan from 1998-99 to 2003-04, I agree, he would be a better player to build a team around than Kobe. From 2004-05 onwards though, when Duncan slowed down, I think it would be much easier to build a contending team around Kobe. For Duncan to be the guy you build a team around, you would need a top-level PG AND either a top-level SG or SF, at a minimum, to compete with that team today. With Kobe, all I would need is a specific type of big like Tyson Chandler (who is most definitely not a top level Center of all time), and competent players that can defend and space the floor.

Here's a thought exercise, think up an SG equivalent to Tyson Chandler. As a starting point, we'll put that guy next to Duncan, and we'll put Tyson Chandler next to Kobe... and then build out the 2 teams from there, with vet-minimum (or MLE) players.

So...

Prime Kobe vs Prime Duncan
+ Tyson Chandler vs SG Equivalent of Tyson Chandler (i.e., not Manu Ginobli)
+ Vet-min PG vs Vet-min PG (i.e., not Tony Parker)
+ Vet-min SF vs Vet-min SF
+ Vet-min PF vs Vet-min PF

Who wins?

I think Kobe wins more with less... and I'm having Duncan switch on to Kobe every time, for a laugh. I'd have Dirk switch on to Kobe every time too, that would be even more fun.


Well, if we can get Cooper Flagg next summer, I will naturally have to set aside my man-love for Luka and return to greener pastures.

Collier, Keyonte, Cody, Coop, Hendricks/Kessler... could be the start of something special. 

Until then, you're stuck with me.

Happy to have you here dude. It’s good to hear other voices. Most of us are Mavs homers, but we provide plenty of criticisms of our own guys too. 

I lean to the Kobe was overrated and needed Shaq/Phil etc. or Pau, Odom, Bynum and without great teammates was not really capable of leading a team to greatness with lesser teammates. 

I think you are misremembering about Stackhouse. He was closer to the end of his career here than he was his prime. We didn’t have anything close to 30ppg bouncy prime Stack. He’s had injuries of his own by that point. Also, Matrix was also past his prime by the time he made it to us. Still fine players, nowhere near “stars” though. Josh Howard’s decline was as sudden as it was precipitous. We did have late prime Jet (though he had lost some athleticism by the time he became a Mav) but Jet wasn’t even a Jamal Murray level player in his Mavs years. Nash blossomed post Mavs. Fin was a good player but not even Odom level as far as all around game goes. Dirk had some nice teams around him but there was quite a bit of bad luck and turnover too. Looking back Donnie and Cuban did some nice things but there was a TON of mismanaging assets, especially draft related. As someone else pointed out above, Dirk’s combination of gravity and efficiency made him a true offensive hub and superstar. Even if it wasn’t as stylishly done, in a superficial sense. Both Kobe and Dirk had all time great footwork (Hakeem and Duncan too) and both worked on refining their games obsessively. And had great mutual respect for one another. They are both easily top 25 all time players.