Game 12: Dallas Mavericks (3-8) vs. Phoenix Suns (6-5) | 7:30pm

[Mavs2021]

lol

https://x.com/nickvanexit/status/1988804...52184?s=61

I think the football term is banter club.

[ThisIStheYear]

Mission accomplished. Still on track for a top 6 pick. Flagg got plenty of play with some good, bad, and ugly. Still not sure if he’s a building piece or a piece to build around but he should eventually be a good player. He had a nice raw stat line tonight but wasn’t really very good. Too many turnovers and missed shots and free throws. It’s going to take some time.

[soog]

Mission accomplished. Still on track for a top 6 pick. Flagg got plenty of play with some good, bad, and ugly. Still not sure if he’s a building piece or a piece to build around but he should eventually be a good player. He had a nice raw stat line tonight but wasn’t really very good. Too many turnovers and missed shots and free throws. It’s going to take some time.

Definitely a building piece. I’m not sure how anyone could think otherwise. To be doing these things this early and at this age is impressive. 

And seeing BWill and Christie is super encouraging.

It’s fun to root for this team again.

[FireNicoHarrison]

lol

https://x.com/nickvanexit/status/1988804...52184?s=61

Hahahahhahaha

[FireNicoHarrison]

B-Will, Max and Coop played hard. Great job kids.

We lose. Good.
Lakers lose. Fantastic.

[mvossman]

Definitely a building piece. I’m not sure how anyone could think otherwise. To be doing these things this early and at this age is impressive. 

And seeing BWill and Christie is super encouraging.

It’s fun to root for this team again.

I think you misunderstood the quote.  A building piece is his floor.  The other possibility is that he is a player to build around.  I think its going to be the latter, only he is so versatile that building around him is going to be more about his timeline than needing to get specific types of players.

[KillerLeft]

I think you misunderstood the quote.  A building piece is his floor.  The other possibility is that he is a player to build around.  I think its going to be the latter, only he is so versatile that building around him is going to be more about his timeline than needing to get specific types of players.

I don't know (yet) if he's a Jordan or a Pippen. But, it's clear he'll be good enough to fall into one of those two comparisons, and even if he's a Pippen, he'll LITERALLY be a Pippen, as in the BEST Robin in the league, or a level around there. 

And, to your point, he has no weaknesses to cover up, so building around him is going to be a cinch, at least relative to guys we've experienced here before (Nash, Dirk, Luka, Brunson, etc).

[KillerLeft]

There were moments in this game where the Mavs looked like an actual NBA team, even on offense. I can't quite tell if it's the weight of the toxic war between the crowd and GM being lifted or just a continuation of the trend of improvement we've been seeing recently.

In the end, though, it was pretty clear who the better team was.

I still don't think they're tanking...yet, though maybe they should. Then again, maybe they won't even have to. You could make the case that some of the lineups down the stretch were "hope we lose" lineups, but honestly, I usually feel that way about Kidd's lineups when he's trying to win, and it's not like he has a lot of choices at the moment. What will probably tip us off, either way, is how injuries are handled throughout the season.

I disagree with almost every roster building point FGump made this summer (though I respect his opinion and how he makes his points, obviously), but he was right on the money about Brandon Williams. That dude has something. His body type and first step remind me of SGA, and his ability to finish inside is much better than I realized. A killer first step, lightning straight line speed with the ball and a decent finishing touch are a pretty usable combination. If that dude ever learns to score AT THE OTHER TWO LEVELS, he's going to earn himself a role and some job security, if not with the Mavs, then somewhere. He's quickly becoming one of the reasons I'm still watching.

Cisse has something, too. You guys all know how much I love that type of long, athletic, QUICK center, and that dude isn't scared of these moments at all. He's prone to dumb fouls, but that should improve with playing time. I think the Mavs really might've found one with him, and I'm so glad he's here and not Kai Jones.

To be honest, one of the SUCCESSFUL elements of the Harrison era is that the scouting department seems to have improved by leaps and bounds over the Cuban/Donnie days. They seem to find overlooked guys who are athletic enough to move the needle pretty easily, lately. I hope that part of the team's identity over these past few seasons is kept and folded into the new front office. I don't know if we credit Harrison with that, or Finley, or whomever, but I hope it continues.

Christie is a keeper. I don't know if he's a starting off guard or a bench guard yet (probably depends on the rest of the lineup, and how the plan to create offense unfolds), but he's definitely a ROTATION level player in the NBA. I hope he continues to use this opportunity to improve and flourish.

Predictably, ever since they've started playing more guards (whether they wanted to or were forced to by injury) Flagg has started looking better and better. His shooting is pretty hit and miss (that will improve), but he's able to impact the game in so many different ways, and I personally have not felt the position/role change has left him any less involved in the offense. In fact, I'd say the opposite is true. He's making better passes now, because he's encountering situations he understands. I think the Mavs got a great one in Flagg, and once he/they/we figure out what he is and exactly how he fits into the puzzle, I think he's going to be universally adored here. I was fascinated by one long stretch of the game when he was the 5 on defense. It wasn't a particularly great stretch for the Mavs, but my recollection is that this was due more to Thompson bricking shots on the other end for about 3 minutes straight.

I don't hate Caleb Martin as much as everyone else. Not yet, at least. He's fast and pretty athletic, and while I haven't seen a stretch of truly dominant defense from him yet, he's obviously defensive-minded. If he can just gain a little confidence with his catch-and-shoot game, he could be a very useful player, imho. Good enough to be a 9th-10th guy for sure, and good enough for me to feel like we could think in terms of moving one of the good forwards, not just one or two of the good bigs. I'm glad he's getting some time right now, so that we (and the team, obvs) can evaluate the validity of him possibly being a rotation player when the dust settles. He's not worth much, but PJW and Marshall are both worth quite a bit, I'd think. If Martin can be depended on as the 3rd or 4th forward (big if) that could open some interesting doors moving forward. I also think he's the RIGHT type of forward, given the team's current makeup, in that he's clearly a 3 and clearly not a 4. I know this distinction isn't the end all be all, but after ball-handling guards, I think the next biggest deficiency this roster has is that old school 2/3 swing type of guard/forward. Thompson is the closest thing they have to that, but he's about done, defensively, and it seems like a forgone conclusion that he's going to be gone by the deadline (though maybe not). Marshall is more of at 3/4 type, I think, and both Flagg and PJW are kind of 4/5/3 types (possibly even in that order, though I'm sure some will disagree).

Anyway...just some thoughts I had while watching last night.

[Chicagojk]

P
I don't hate Caleb Martin as much as everyone else. Not yet, at least. He's fast and pretty athletic, and while I haven't seen a stretch of truly dominant defense from him yet, he's obviously defensive-minded. If he can just gain a little confidence with his catch-and-shoot game, he could be a very useful player, imho. Good enough to be a 9th-10th guy for sure, and good enough for me to feel like we could think in terms of moving one of the good forwards, not just one or two of the good bigs. I'm glad he's getting some time right now, so that we (and the team, obvs) can evaluate the validity of him possibly being a rotation player when the dust settles. He's not worth much, but PJW and Marshall are both worth quite a bit, I'd think. If Martin can be depended on as the 3rd or 4th forward (big if) that could open some interesting doors moving forward. I also think he's the RIGHT type of forward, given the team's current makeup, in that he's clearly a 3 and clearly not a 4. I know this distinction isn't the end all be all, but after ball-handling guards, I think the next biggest deficiency this roster has is that old school 2/3 swing type of guard/forward. Thompson is the closest thing they have to that, but he's about done, defensively, and it seems like a forgone conclusion that he's going to be gone by the deadline (though maybe not). Marshall is more of at 3/4 type, I think, and both Flagg and PJW are kind of 4/5/3 types (possibly even in that order, though I'm sure some will disagree).

Anyway...just some thoughts I had while watching last night.

He is going to be here for a while so we better get used to him .  His jumper is so bad now.   His form is different on about every shot.   His shot is so flat.  Then he has that hitch.  Ugly.   Because he is here for a bit, I have no problem with him being your 4th wing and probably outside the regular rotation.   The issue is he combines the poor shooting of the rest of the wings.   PJ isn't scaring anyone.   Same with Marshall.   Coop will get better but needs to.  Lets not even mention AD shooting threes as a 4.   It just seems like moving forward they need to find two floor spacers.   One is probably paired with Max, but I think one of PJ or Marshall will eventually get moved.   Even if AD is moved.   I think as Coop matures you are going to need space for him to get the most benefit.

[mvossman]

I don't know (yet) if he's a Jordan or a Pippen. But, it's clear he'll be good enough to fall into one of those two comparisons, and even if he's a Pippen, he'll LITERALLY be a Pippen, as in the BEST Robin in the league, or a level around there. 

And, to your point, he has no weaknesses to cover up, so building around him is going to be a cinch, at least relative to guys we've experienced here before (Nash, Dirk, Luka, Brunson, etc).

If I had to guess a comp for him right now it would be Kawhi.

[KillerLeft]

If I had to guess a comp for him right now it would be Kawhi.

Well, I didn't mean in terms of play style, but I like your comparison. I'd definitely put that in the "Jordan" category.

The comp that I like is Lamar Odom - not the crackhead version the Mavs had, but the one from the Clippers/early Lakers days. SO versatile, with SO much potential that was just never quite realized. Flagg WILL realize it, so don't focus on that part. I just mean the kinds of things he could do on the court to affect change in games.

[Chicagojk]

I disagree with almost every roster building point FGump made this summer (though I respect his opinion and how he makes his points, obviously), but he was right on the money about Brandon Williams. That dude has something. His body type and first step remind me of SGA, and his ability to finish inside is much better than I realized. A killer first step, lightning straight line speed with the ball and a decent finishing touch are a pretty usable combination. If that dude ever learns to score AT THE OTHER TWO LEVELS, he's going to earn himself a role and some job security, if not with the Mavs, then somewhere. He's quickly becoming one of the reasons I'm still watching.

Cisse has something, too. You guys all know how much I love that type of long, athletic, QUICK center, and that dude isn't scared of these moments at all. He's prone to dumb fouls, but that should improve with playing time. I think the Mavs really might've found one with him, and I'm so glad he's here and not Kai Jones.

T

I am struggling with Williams.  He is the best option we have now.  I want to see Nembhard though as the year goes on.  As you mentioned his first step is contagious and he is really good finishing at the rim.   I guess I just want to see more as the year goes on.   Does he know when to attack and when not to.  Can he really settle the team down and create great looks when the team is in a rut.    I have seen plenty that i have liked but at time I have seen things that I think will hold him back.   He should get plenty of opportunity over the first half of the season though.

I love Cisse.  Who knows what that means.  He plays so hard and he makes things happen.  Now I am sure because he is so raw that he makes plenty of mistakes, but I have to believe even if he can't shoot that he will find a place in this league.

[Chicagojk]

I think I see a bigger, more skilled Tatum with Flagg.   Now, time will tell if he ever reaches Tatum's level as a top 5-7 player in the league but he was a better prospect than Tatum entering the league.   I think he is at least 3-4 years ahead of Tatum as a passer.  Tatum probably had a more consistent shot.    I do hope Flagg doesn't fall in love with the three as Tatum can.   I can just picture Flagg with a spread floor getting into the lane and being deadly similar to how Tatum could do as his best.

[KillerLeft]

I think I see a bigger, more skilled Tatum with Flagg.   Now, time will tell if he ever reaches Tatum's level as a top 5-7 player in the league but he was a better prospect than Tatum entering the league.   I think he is at least 3-4 years ahead of Tatum as a passer.  Tatum probably had a more consistent shot.    I do hope Flagg doesn't fall in love with the three as Tatum can.   I can just picture Flagg with a spread floor getting into the lane and being deadly similar to how Tatum could do as his best.

That's a pretty good comp, too. 

I feel like he's already showing that he'll be better with the ball in his hands (as a secondary creator type) than Tatum, but Tatum is a pretty damn polished 1-on-1 scorer. If Flagg can get there, the other things he brings to the table should make him clearly superior to Tatum overall, I'd wager.

[F Gump]

I decided early on that Tatum is probably a good comp (and developmental model) for CF. And maybe he still is because it's way early to say CF will NOT be this or that. There is a long runway still ahead of him.

However....

I think he is being DEVELOPED like Giannis was, with the obvious idea being you can end up with the next Giannis. Same coach, too. If you watch the things CF does and the things he is being asked to do in games, there is a MASSIVE amount that follows the GA profile.

That doesnt mean that's his destiny. But I think that's how he is being trained at this point.

Also (and super important to keep in mind) it is way way way early in the process. 12 games. About 3 weeks. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

[ThisIStheYear]

I don't know (yet) if he's a Jordan or a Pippen. But, it's clear he'll be good enough to fall into one of those two comparisons, and even if he's a Pippen, he'll LITERALLY be a Pippen, as in the BEST Robin in the league, or a level around there. 

And, to your point, he has no weaknesses to cover up, so building around him is going to be a cinch, at least relative to guys we've experienced here before (Nash, Dirk, Luka, Brunson, etc).

This is pretty much how I feel. He’s either the man or he’ll be an elite #2, but to be the former takes 28-30 point a game scoring potential, and I havent seen it yet.  It’s good either way.

[Jym]

Also note that Tatum averaged 15.7 ppg his second year when he was 20/21
So Coop is already like 2 years ahead

[KillerLeft]

Also note that Tatum averaged 15.7 ppg his second year when he was 20/21
So Coop is already like 2 years ahead

Yeah, while I don't hate the Tatum comp (he's a jack of all trades in a similar way, in addition to the obvious body type/positional similarities), I admit I'll pretty disappointed if Flagg not at least a little better than that. I think he's already shown that he has more at a younger age.

[Smitty]

Dream bigger. Larry Bird!

[cow]

Dream bigger. Larry Bird!

Larry Big Bird?