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(11-19-2022, 06:50 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: If Washington is so loved around here to the point of being claimed the Real Maxi Kleber...
THJ/Bullock are worth it alone.
So...I dont know why people complain about Hayward. If he works out here thats just icing on the cake to scoring Washington whom people think would be perfect with Luka.
Sure...Hayward is a chunky risk on the cap...but if he works out and PJ works out...for THJ and Bullock? I think I am interested. Is there filler needed? Im reluctant to give up cheap old Frank or potential in Green.
And Washington can actually be a trade asset. Look at a team like the Bulls, since we talked about Lavine. Who is their 2nd best PF/C? Williams? Drummond?
Maybe something for Bamba or Isaac that doesn´t cost us a core piece or a 1st rounder. Magic clearly showcasing Bamba again and they might be hiding the state of Isaac, too. Hard to gauge their trade value at the moment.
Doncic/Dinwiddie
Green/Ntilikina
DFS/Hayward
Washington/Kleber
Bamba/Wood
That would be a nice haul before the big move.
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Remember when people didn't want Wiggins for KP and some even wanted a first round pick to go with Wiggins?
THJ+Bullock for Hayward and Washington/PJ looks and feels the same to me.
IMHo, there is no way one can get PJ out of a THJ+Bullock package.
Now, THJ+Bullock for GH is possible, 2 seconds rounders might do it.
But adding PJ in the mix would mean adding Hardy or Green or both on top of second rounders.
And when you trade your youngsters, there is no way you don't re-sign PJ for what he wants.
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I don't think it's very realistic to think that Bullock/THJ give you Hayward/PJ.. Mavs gets the top 2 players in the deal and the Hornets take on more money in the long run...I wonder why they would want Tim, when they're paying Rozier in the long run...
The deal has to have some incentive for the Hornets I guess, at least save money..yes, they wouldn't just let Gordon expire.. Powell/Bertans/Frank+ multiples 2 for Hayward/Thor..
Hornets save a few millions and get a few small assets. They will not give away PJ, he is a young starter for them and they do not have plenty of talent...
they will pay him
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I don't know the situation in Boston. I know they added Brogdon and I think White if he was available would be a very good fit..he would allow us to run 3 guard lineups which gave us such good results and he really is a great defender.. Powell/Bullock for White?.. Boston has a hole in the middle due to injuries and they are playing Hauser/JJackson on the wing, I guess Bullock would be welcome
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11-20-2022, 11:58 AM
(This post was last modified: 11-20-2022, 12:00 PM by cow.)
(11-19-2022, 08:07 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Remember when people didn't want Wiggins for KP and some even wanted a first round pick to go with Wiggins?
THJ+Bullock for Hayward and Washington/PJ looks and feels the same to me.
IMHo, there is no way one can get PJ out of a THJ+Bullock package.
Now, THJ+Bullock for GH is possible, 2 seconds rounders might do it.
But adding PJ in the mix would mean adding Hardy or Green or both on top of second rounders.
And when you trade your youngsters, there is no way you don't re-sign PJ for what he wants.
I called Wiggins the MVP of the playoffs and I think he had a case for finals MVP as well, but kind of like Draymond, I don't think the Wiggins we saw would likely have been the same player on another team. Heck, he wasn't even the same player on that injured GSW squad a few years back. Once he his the 3rd or 4th offensive option is where he shines. And yeah, I was in the camp that thought his contract was untradeable and that GSW made a large mistake in that Russell trade. If he lands somewhere else and is the second offensive option and at his salary, I could see a very disappointed fanbase.
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(11-20-2022, 11:58 AM)cow Wrote: I called Wiggins the MVP of the playoffs and I think he had a case for finals MVP as well, but kind of like Draymond, I don't think the Wiggins we saw would likely have been the same player on another team. Heck, he wasn't even the same player on that injured GSW squad a few years back. Once he his the 3rd or 4th offensive option is where he shines. And yeah, I was in the camp that thought his contract was untradeable and that GSW made a large mistake in that Russell trade. If he lands somewhere else and is the second offensive option and at his salary, I could see a very disappointed fanbase.
Harrison Barnes 2.0
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(11-20-2022, 12:05 PM)DallasMaverick Wrote: Harrison Barnes 2.0
Barnes averaged 12/5 in his best season for the Warriors. Wiggins is scoring 18-19ppg for the Warriors. Not to mention that Wiggins is a way better defender and was probably their second best player in the playoffs last season. Barnes was their weak link in 2016. If he plays an average series the Warriors beat the Cavs.
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People that complain about Wiggins contract are weird to me. Assuming you are a playoff team with a decent chance of doing something...he is worth every penny because of his size, length and ability to perform on both ends.
I dont care about being 1st pick and taking 6 years to mature...dude can play in playoffs on both ends. I would happily take his contract.
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(11-20-2022, 06:35 AM)Mikelorenzo Wrote: I don't think it's very realistic to think that Bullock/THJ give you Hayward/PJ..
Not singling you out but I've seen this point brought up multiple times. I don't think people realize just how little value Hayward carries. Remember how we debated ad nauseum for a KP trade but always ran into roadblocks because we'd always say "KP's contract plus he's always injured so who would want him?", that's Hayward.
Hayward is as negative of an asset as they come. He isn't worth anything. He's been injured more than KP the last 3 years. Isn't that crazy to think about?
KP's GP the last 3 years:
Haywards:
KP went for 2 terrible contracts and the Mavs had to add a 2nd to make it work. Mavs in this deal are giving 2 rotation wings. The LEAST Charlotte can do to make the deal stomachable is add in Washington.
14x All-Star, 12x all-NBA, 1x MVP, 1x Finals MVP, 1 NBA Championship: Dirk Nowitzki, the man, the myth, the legend.
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Don´t set yourself up for disappointment. We just had the recent trade value article. To sum it up. The Mavs have Luka. A couple of picks that aren´t worth a lot because having Luka almost guarantees a playoff spot. And that´s basically it.
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(11-20-2022, 12:22 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: People that complain about Wiggins contract are weird to me. Assuming you are a playoff team with a decent chance of doing something...he is worth every penny because of his size, length and ability to perform on both ends.
I dont care about being 1st pick and taking 6 years to mature...dude can play in playoffs on both ends. I would happily take his contract.
It's "easy" to pay Wiggins when you don't care about luxury tax and have a foundation of Curry, Klay and Draymond as well as up and comers like Poole. And up until last season, he wasn't really living up to his contract with GSW either. He's an amazing starter when he's 3rd or 4th best player.
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(11-20-2022, 01:26 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: Not singling you out but I've seen this point brought up multiple times. I don't think people realize just how little value Hayward carries. Remember how we debated ad nauseum for a KP trade but always ran into roadblocks because we'd always say "KP's contract plus he's always injured so who would want him?", that's Hayward.
Hayward is as negative of an asset as they come. He isn't worth anything. He's been injured more than KP the last 3 years. Isn't that crazy to think about?
KP's GP the last 3 years:
Haywards:
KP went for 2 terrible contracts and the Mavs had to add a 2nd to make it work. Mavs in this deal are giving 2 rotation wings. The LEAST Charlotte can do to make the deal stomachable is add in Washington. I also think it´s not that bad deal on a stand-alone analysis. Seen much much worse around here.
Then it is if fair to point out that their pre-Washington/Oubre extension guaranteed salary stands at only $84M next year (before Hayward expires), so it´s not like they would be saving a massive amount of money. The salary cap floor might be as high as $120M next year, so even if they land the #1 pick and extend Washingon/Oubre, they´ll probably not be able to materialize the full cap relief any trade might provide. Their incentive would be tank, gain draft assets and maximize capspace, so not matching with our offers.
But thanks for making me look at the KP trade again to compare with Hayward and realize that the Bertans contract runs through 2025. Jesus. We are paying Bertans/McGee 22M for DNPs for another three years. That would be a problem for good front offices with invested owners, let alone the Dallas Cheapskates.
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Snippet from Stein on Collins and Clarkson:
Back to Atlanta's Collins: Utah's reported interest would be yet another signal that the Jazz, who were widely expected to try to tank to give themselves the best possible shot at winning the Wembanyama lottery, aren’t thinking in those terms after their surprising 12-6 start. Collins is averaging just 12.4 points per game and shooting 23.4% from 3-point range for the Hawks to go with 7.9 RPG, accounting for his lowest scoring average since his rookie season in 2017-18, but the 25-year-old is obviously still far closer to the win-now line than developmental prospect.
Yet another illustration of Utah's apparent willingness to let its current team land wherever it lands in the standings without trying to offload more talent in the wake of the Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell trades to prioritize draft position: One rival team official told me he thinks that the Jazz are more likely to extend organizational favorite Jordan Clarkson's contract before they consider trading him. Clarkson, 30, is averaging career-highs in scoring (18.6 PPG) and assists (4.6 APG).
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(11-20-2022, 01:58 PM)cow Wrote: It's "easy" to pay Wiggins when you don't care about luxury tax and have a foundation of Curry, Klay and Draymond as well as up and comers like Poole. And up until last season, he wasn't really living up to his contract with GSW either. He's an amazing starter when he's 3rd or 4th best player.
Yeah...he was a bust when talking about him being a number 1 or 2 on a team. He isnt that. But he is worth his contract simply because he is playoff playable and, imo, disruptive with his length.
I get that you cant pay every starter 35M each...but todays Wiggins is the ideal size and length for modern NBA.
What is his market value in your opinion?
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(11-20-2022, 02:58 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: What is his market value in your opinion?
Definitely don't ask my opinion on that. lol He took a pay cut to with GSW at like 28M per. He was worth every penny of that in the playoffs.
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(11-20-2022, 02:09 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: I also think it´s not that bad deal on a stand-alone analysis. Seen much much worse around here.
Then it is if fair to point out that their pre-Washington/Oubre extension guaranteed salary stands at only $84M next year (before Hayward expires), so it´s not like they would be saving a massive amount of money. The salary cap floor might be as high as $120M next year, so even if they land the #1 pick and extend Washingon/Oubre, they´ll probably not be able to materialize the full cap relief any trade might provide. Their incentive would be tank, gain draft assets and maximize capspace, so not matching with our offers.
But thanks for making me look at the KP trade again to compare with Hayward and realize that the Bertans contract runs through 2025. Jesus. We are paying Bertans/McGee 22M for DNPs for another three years. That would be a problem for good front offices with invested owners, let alone the Dallas Cheapskates.
Bertans is earning a little money tonight!
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Minus Luka, the Mavs might have the worst group of 4 starters in the whole NBA. I see tanking teams and I feel like I would easily take four guys out of their starting lineup in place of the Mavs 4 starters (minus Luka).
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(11-20-2022, 10:20 PM)Kammrath Wrote: Minus Luka, the Mavs might have the worst group of 4 starters in the whole NBA. I see tanking teams and I feel like I would easily take four guys out of their starting lineup in place of the Mavs 4 starters (minus Luka).
I agree with you to some extent, factoring in Bullock's poor play and Powell/McGee. However, I think you're selling Spencer short a bit, and I refuse to believe that DFS has really lost that step.
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(11-21-2022, 04:50 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I agree with you to some extent, factoring in Bullock's poor play and Powell/McGee. However, I think you're selling Spencer short a bit, and I refuse to believe that DFS has really lost that step.
Play the game with me. Give me any team and let's see if I would take four of their starters over the Mavs.
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Dorian could start for any team in the league. He might be that team's worst starter but he get heavy minutes on any team.
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