GAME 5 Playoffs 2024: Dallas Mavericks (3-1) vs. Minnesota Timberwolves (1-3)

[dirkfansince1998]

Not to mention that Dirk pioneered the entire play style. Without Dirk, KAT would'nt have even been allowed to play that way. 

This conversation offends me greatly. There is no comparison of the two that has any business appearing in the world.

One of the most satisying aspects of the Mavs win. Self proclaimed best shooting big in history getting embarassed by Dirk's team.

[fifteenth]

Not to mention that Dirk pioneered the entire play style. Without Dirk, KAT would'nt have even been allowed to play that way. 

This conversation offends me greatly. There is no comparison of the two that has any business appearing in the world.

Absolutely, full agreement from me. 

I had a longer response to our pal from Minnesota, but I didn't want to type it out on my phone last night. But can you imagine KAT having the skill or the ability to handle the responsibility required to hit the shots that Dirk hit in the situations where Dirk hit those shots? I just think of the percentage of shots taken with defenders draped all over him, while facing double teams, while being THE focus of the defensive game plan, in the most important situations possible, while carrying a franchise on his back, while creating the world that KAT gets to live in. KAT shouldn't be compared to Dirk, he should just thank Dirk for his career. 

If we want to compare KAT to a previous generation big man shooter, KAT hasn't even reached Tom Chambers level.

[fifteenth]

My brother, on behalf of the MFFL, come on over. We won't even make you pass the Dirk history test. It's all love over here.

I changed my mind. Based on our Minnesota brother's comment on KAT and Dirk, he now has to take the Dirk history test. 

[The Jom]

I mean, depends what you go off of I suppose. Winning? Championships? Sure. Percentages from 2 and 3? Nope.

Whoa, there buddy. If you wanna defend the “best shooting big” claim, this is gonna be a rough forum for you.

[Reunion Mav]

He was only good for a couple of games. And plenty of great players give props to the other guys when they lose. And saying that he had nothing to learn? He's got some maturing to do.

I watched the longer version of that interview on NBA TV. Ant did recover quite a bit from that I don’t want to be here answer. He is young with a lot to learn but he’s also very good and pretty likable. Luka has done some immature things to. We should forgive him too.

[EGrant23]

Whoa, there buddy. If you wanna defend the “best shooting big” claim, this is gonna be a rough forum for you.

I am obviously aware of that, lol. I don't really care to defend it. They're two different players and KAT is nowhere near the player that Dirk was. However, everyone is taking such offense to KAT saying he's the best shooting big man. KAT is a career. 398 three point shooter and 5 of his 9 seasons he's been over 40%. To completely crap all over those numbers is just silly because of disdain for KAT.

[fifteenth]

I am obviously aware of that, lol. I don't really care to defend it. They're two different players and KAT is nowhere near the player that Dirk was. However, everyone is taking such offense to KAT saying he's the best shooting big man. KAT is a career. 398 three point shooter and 5 of his 9 seasons he's been over 40%. To completely crap all over those numbers is just silly because of disdain for KAT.

Come on now. KAT is a great shooter. Those are great numbers. I don't think anyone here would crap on those numbers. However, we will with zealous glee crap on the "best shooting big man" comment. Like I've suggested so far, the numbers don't appear without context. The push back you're seeing about KAT's comment has nothing to do with denigrating his shooting acumen, it's about calling him out for his silly comment. 

I should give you an out. I get it. I've been a Mavs fan since the 80's. In 1998 I probably said that Michael Finley was the 2nd best shooting guard behind Jordan. 

But if you really want to test our love for you, come at as with some kind of blasphemous KG>Dirk argument and see what happens. 

[BoredAssistant]

Absolutely stunned the Mavs are in the Finals from where they were before the trades. I sense with these days off Luka is going to have a great defensive performance vs Boston. Also, PJ Washington = Sam Perkins (although I think Perkins had a bank shot vs PJ's floater but I may be misremembering).

[Chicagojk]

I haven't cross checked the ages, but I feel like Dallas is actually YOUNGER than Minnesota, and by a considerable margin. 

Kyrie is oldish, but Conley is older. 

I feel like KAT, Anderson and Reid are all older than anyone else in the Dallas rotation, but I might be wrong about that. I mean, I know KAT is, but maybe I just feel like Anderson and Reid are because they look older to me, don't know. 

Regardless of the direct comparison, it's interesting to me that people (national media, other fan bases, etc) are acting like this is just the fruition of the momentum since Luka was drafted, when in reality they have almost completely remade the team since the WCF run two years ago. Outside of Kyrie and Kleber, I'm not sure they have a rotation player over the age of 26. THE MAVS are a young team.

Yeah, it was interesting to hear people say entering the playoffs that the Timberwolves will be here for a long time.   With this new CBA, I think a long time is different from what it used to be.  Maybe with OKC being the exception.    I think Minny has the right kind of star to build around.    They have a good GM and a nicely put together roster.    There are issues though.   One being the ownership.   The current owner is terrible but may have more money.  The new owners may not have the money.    Their GM may be tied to the new owners too.    The GM has an option this offseason.    

As far as players go, Kat extensions begins to kick in.   Naz Reid has an opt out next year that he will surely take.    He is going to get a big pay day.   Is that feasible if KAT and Gobert is on the roster?

Age is also a concern.  Gobert was very good this year but will be 32 soon.   Can he stay at this level for the next 3-4 years?  I have always liked Conley but he will be 37 years old soon.  Minny currently has not option waiting in the wings.    He did sign an extension but you really need to watch his minutes.

The KAT decision is huge.  I think he is good.  I just don't trust him.   Ideally he would be your third guy.   Sort of like a better version wildcard that Michael Porter is in Denver.   At that salary though, he really needs to be one of your top 2 players.  He showed in these playoffs that he did do this for a few series.   Just didn't do it vs Dallas.

[KillerLeft]

Yeah, it was interesting to hear people say entering the playoffs that the Timberwolves will be here for a long time.   With this new CBA, I think a long time is different from what it used to be.  Maybe with OKC being the exception.    I think Minny has the right kind of star to build around.    They have a good GM and a nicely put together roster.    There are issues though.   One being the ownership.   The current owner is terrible but may have more money.  The new owners may not have the money.    Their GM may be tied to the new owners too.    The GM has an option this offseason.    

As far as players go, Kat extensions begins to kick in.   Naz Reid has an opt out next year that he will surely take.    He is going to get a big pay day.   Is that feasible if KAT and Gobert is on the roster?

Age is also a concern.  Gobert was very good this year but will be 32 soon.   Can he stay at this level for the next 3-4 years?  I have always liked Conley but he will be 37 years old soon.  Minny currently has not option waiting in the wings.    He did sign an extension but you really need to watch his minutes.

The KAT decision is huge.  I think he is good.  I just don't trust him.   Ideally he would be your third guy.   Sort of like a better version wildcard that Michael Porter is in Denver.   At that salary though, he really needs to be one of your top 2 players.  He showed in these playoffs that he did do this for a few series.   Just didn't do it vs Dallas.

Yeah, I go back-and-forth between two extremes on Minnesota.

Part of me just doesn’t buy KAT at all as a player. Sometimes I think he is just too soft and too mentally weak to ever be what they need him to be. They could trade him and reinvent themselves somewhat that way, but it would still be basically what they are now, just hopefully a better version of it.

But the other part of me just doesn’t know if they will ever be able to win with the ball in Edwards’ hands while Gobert is on the floor. I think Jason Timpf nailed it last night. Because Gobert does not have utility on the offensive end the way lively does, He is literally, and I mean quite literally, in Edwards’ way. I’m not sure if they could even move him at his current salary, but if they could, and they played KAT at center, They could easily create enough space for Edwards to get downhill anytime he wanted against damn near any defensive scheme out there. At that point, if the paint was taken away from Edwards, KAT could literally just play horse. I am 100% positive this would have a negative impact on Minnesota’s defense, but I also feel like Edwards might win the next three scoring titles that way.

Thinking about all of that, and then mixing in the obvious second apron issues they are up against, I would say Minnesota is at a bit of a cross roads.

[Jmaciscool]

Yeah, I go back-and-forth between two extremes on Minnesota.

Part of me just doesn’t buy KAT at all as a player. Sometimes I think he is just too soft and too mentally weak to ever be what they need him to be. They could trade him and reinvent themselves somewhat that way, but it would still be basically what they are now, just hopefully a better version of it.

But the other part of me just doesn’t know if they will ever be able to win with the ball in Edwards’ hands while Gobert is on the floor. I think Jason Timpf nailed it last night. Because Gobert does not have utility on the offensive end the way lively does, He is literally, and I mean quite literally, in Edwards’ way. I’m not sure if they could even move him at his current salary, but if they could, and they played KAT at center, They could easily create enough space for Edwards to get downhill anytime he wanted against damn near any defensive scheme out there. At that point, if the paint was taken away from Edwards, KAT could literally just play horse. I am 100% positive this would have a negative impact on Minnesota’s defense, but I also feel like Edwards might win the next three scoring titles that way.

Thinking about all of that, and then mixing in the obvious second apron issues they are up against, I would say Minnesota is at a bit of a cross roads.

Very curious to see what Minnesota does.  Their best option may just be to run it all back next year and see what happens now that they've had some playoff experience.  But eventually they're going to have to make a tough decision and it'll be very interesting to see what it is.

[Jmaciscool]

Yeah, I go back-and-forth between two extremes on Minnesota.

Part of me just doesn’t buy KAT at all as a player. Sometimes I think he is just too soft and too mentally weak to ever be what they need him to be. They could trade him and reinvent themselves somewhat that way, but it would still be basically what they are now, just hopefully a better version of it.

But the other part of me just doesn’t know if they will ever be able to win with the ball in Edwards’ hands while Gobert is on the floor. I think Jason Timpf nailed it last night. Because Gobert does not have utility on the offensive end the way lively does, He is literally, and I mean quite literally, in Edwards’ way. I’m not sure if they could even move him at his current salary, but if they could, and they played KAT at center, They could easily create enough space for Edwards to get downhill anytime he wanted against damn near any defensive scheme out there. At that point, if the paint was taken away from Edwards, KAT could literally just play horse. I am 100% positive this would have a negative impact on Minnesota’s defense, but I also feel like Edwards might win the next three scoring titles that way.

Thinking about all of that, and then mixing in the obvious second apron issues they are up against, I would say Minnesota is at a bit of a cross roads.

Interesting article that goes into some of the crossroads Minnesota is facing

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/karl-...realistic/

[RGP1981]

But if you really want to test our love for you, come at as with some kind of blasphemous KG>Dirk argument and see what happens. 

Welp, I think Luka > KG > Duncan >= Dirk.

KG is a better baller than Duncan... but Duncan was on better teams for all of his career, which is why he has more accomplishments. He had Manu and Parker in their prime, yet could never repeat. I think people over-rate Duncan, because he has never won back-to-back rings despite being on the most stacked team of the 2000s. Every other Top 10 Greatest Of All Time has won back-to-back rings... MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Kobe, Magic, Larry, Hakeem, Shaq, Russell... even Steph has won back-to-back. The only two who are mentioned in this discussion but never won back-to-back are Wilt and Duncan... and I'll take Wilt over Duncan all day every day because of the physical differences.

Another thing that doesn't get mentioned enough IMO... the Spurs were gifted their 2006-07 ring (when the league suspended A'mare and Diaw, or the Suns would have knocked the Spurs out)... and if not for that gift, the Spurs with Duncan + Manu + Parker would not have won a ring between 2004-05 and 2013-14. That's a shamefully long time for an All-time Great to have gone without winning a ring, especially when his teams were more stacked than all of his competition in the 2000s.

So I have KG over Duncan, keeping in mind the differences in the teams they played on.

Dirk was too soft on defense and was not always a "carry-a-team on my back" player for every year of his career on offense... not like Kobe was... well, not enough to make up for how soft he was on defense, therefore, he can't be on the same level as the other two, i.e., KG and Duncan. Although, I think that if Dirk had the teams that Duncan had, then he might have had the same success that Duncan did. So that's why I have "Duncan >= Dirk".

[Mavs2021]

Welp, I think KG > Duncan >= Dirk.

KG is a better baller than Duncan... but Duncan was on better teams for all of his career, which is why he has more accomplishments. He had Manu and Parker in their prime, yet could never repeat. If Duncan was better than KG, he would have repeated. Every other Top 10 Greatest Of All Time has won back-to-back rings... MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Kobe, Magic, Larry, Hakeem, Russell... even Steph has.

In fact, the Spurs were gifted their 2006-07 ring, when the league suspended A'mare and Diaw... or the Suns would have knocked the Spurs out... and if not for that gift, the Spurs with Duncan + Manu + Parker would not have won a ring between 2005-06 and 2012-13. That's a shameful record for an All-time Great to have with such a stacked team, especially since the Spurs were more stacked than all of their competition in the 2000s.

So I have KG over Duncan, keeping in mind the differences in the teams they played on.

Dirk was too soft on defense and was not always a "carry-a-team" on my back kind of player for every year of his career on offense... not like Kobe was... therefore, he can't be on the same level as the other two, i.e., KG and Duncan.

KG is not at the level of Duncan or Dirk. KG is a Robin. Duncan and Dirk are Batman. You trying to make our friend from Minnesota feel better by coming up with similar ridiculous takes.

[OBX Maverick]

Did anyone hear Ant in the locker room after the game? He proclaimed that if the WCF were best of 9 the Wolves woulda come back and won. The set on that guy!!!!

[RGP1981]

KG is not at the level of Duncan or Dirk. KG is a Robin. Duncan and Dirk are Batman. You trying to make our friend from Minnesota feel better by coming up with similar ridiculous takes.

Well, all three of those guys are super heroes of the NBA... and I only meant to share my opinion, not to make anyone feel better or to offense anyone either. Mostly, what annoys me is how some folks on the interwebs seem to be trying to push Duncan up the All-Time list in recent years, to places that I feel he should not be ranked in. For example, I read on RealGM the other day that some wackos think he should be 4th on the list, LOL. So that was the main point of my post, i.e., Duncan never won back-to-back despite having the most stacked team of the 2000s... while everyone else on the Top 10 list has done this, including three players who played in the 2000s (Shaq, Kobe, Lebron). Ergo, he's not as great as the rest on that Top 10 list, or he would have lifted his team to a repeat.

Offense: Dirk > KG >> Duncan
Defense: KG > Duncan >> Dirk

Personally, I have KG, Duncan and Dirk between 10-14 on my all-time list. I don't think there's a lot that separated those three overall.

[The Jom]

Man, rewatching this game, the final 5 mins of the first 2 quarters were incredible. 17-1 to end the first. 17-4 to end the second. Just total lockdown defense in those stretches. The shot making was impressive too. But they scored at a similar rate much of the game. That defense was the difference. It was something else.

[BolsDamols]

Rewatching the game too..just because.. its fun 

Shout out to Josh Green, he made some great plays in the first quarter which was right in the middle of the Luka onslaught so its not noticeable at first glance. 

- Terrific bounce pass to PJ for the fast break lay up
- Deflection of a KAT pass to force the turnover 
- Deflection and no look drop off to Gafford who was fouled

Green gave them terrific minutes in the frantic last few minutes of the first quarter. His energy and hustle made a difference.

Also kudos to Maxi - defended Edwards well in the perimeter, cannot get by him, bad shoulder and all.

[MarkAguirreWrathofGod]

Man, rewatching this game, the final 5 mins of the first 2 quarters were incredible. 17-1 to end the first. 17-4 to end the second. Just total lockdown defense in those stretches. The shot making was impressive too. But they scored at a similar rate much of the game. That defense was the difference. It was something else.

Josh played some great defense and Maxi had it seemed like 3 straight possesions where he was switched on to Ant and just smothered him, including picking his pocket to end half or quarter.