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RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Woj: Pistons discussing Drummond trade with ATL and others) - deronjohn - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:34 PM)omahen Wrote:(01-03-2020, 05:21 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Yes, Brunson would absolutely 100% be the starting point guard in Detroit. Easily.
Certainly, because Detroit has no starting point guard with Reggie Jackson being more or less a history. But that doesn't mean Brunson is valued as a starting point guard. Value of Brunson is not high as his ceiling is seen as back up point guard (if not, he wouldn't be picked 33rd). Back up point guards are not expensive and are easy to acquire for low salary.
One could argue that they see Brunson with a Kyle Lowery ceiling. Lowery did not become an all star until age 28
I personally think Brunson can get to that point
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - omahen - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:28 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: upgrade over Brunson (assuming Brunson would only get limited backup minutes at PG in DAL)
Brunson is a great guy, good player and very cheap. But as you said it, he is only back-up point guard (actually number three behind Wright) and his minutes are very limited. He is valuable if someone gets injured because he can play solid starter minutes. But players for his limited minutes are not difficult to get. If you are a contender, you bring in a vet for minimum salary to take his role. That's why I wouldn't have a problem trading Brunson for the right guy. Not saying Drummond is that guy.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Woj: Pistons discussing Drummond trade with ATL and others) - Tyler - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 04:34 PM)JamesConway Wrote: https://twitter.com/vincegoodwill/status/1213210067497041921?s=21
Interesting.
Drummond definitely doesn't fit the spacing paradigm they've been pumping up, but it's hard to find a bigger bruiser to slot next to KP. 1st in the league in rebounds, 3rd in steals, 11th in blocks, and an underrated passer with 2.7 assists per game -- I think Carlisle can find a role for that.
I'm not sure if the Dallas interest is serious or if it's something being spread by the Mavs-friendly agent, but I do think he could work here.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - dirkfansince1998 - 01-03-2020
I don´t get the JJB > Brunson take.
JJB is a better floor general and pick and roll ballhandler. That´s it. Important skills for a PG but not everything. +/- based advanced stats love Brunsons defense and even though I am not thinking that he is among the best in the league (4th in RPM among PGs) I take him over JJB any day of the week.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Woj: Pistons discussing Drummond trade with ATL and others) - StepBackJay - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:43 PM)Tyler Wrote:(01-03-2020, 04:34 PM)JamesConway Wrote: https://twitter.com/vincegoodwill/status/1213210067497041921?s=21
Interesting.
Drummond definitely doesn't fit the spacing paradigm they've been pumping up, but it's hard to find a bigger bruiser to slot next to KP. 1st in the league in rebounds, 3rd in steals, 11th in blocks, and an underrated passer with 2.7 assists per game -- I think Carlisle can find a role for that.
I'm not sure if the Dallas interest is serious or if it's something being spread by the Mavs-friendly agent, but I do think he could work here.
I think the Mavs probably aren't interested in giving him a Max deal which means they wouldn't give up a whole lot in this deal. The Hawks are likely willing to give more as they would want to give him the max.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - omahen - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:43 PM)Tyler Wrote: Drummond definitely doesn't fit the spacing paradigm they've been pumping up, but it's hard to find a bigger bruiser to slot next to KP.
A lot of issues with the fit. Just remember DeAndre, who is a very similar type of player, last season.
1. Rebounding: Despite the whining about Powell and Kleber rebounding stats, rebounding is not a problem for Dallas. Rebounding didn't get that much worse after DAJ left. Despite his great individual stats, team stats might not really be (much) better.
2. Offense: As he doesn't shoot, Drummond would only fit if he would be willing to roll hard after the PnR (Powell does). If not, he would clog the paint for Luka drives as did DeAndre last season. Despite his individual numbers, our offense might be worse.
3. Defense: Rim protection is not our problem. Guy next to KP would need to be able to switch on the perimeter. (Powell can to a decent extent). Again . Drummond might not make our defense better.
It could work, but there are a lot of ifs. Do you really want to pay max money for this ifs?
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - vfromlmf - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:34 PM)omahen Wrote: Value of Brunson is not high as his ceiling is seen as back up point guard (if not, he wouldn't be picked 33rd).
Every draft from 2010 until 2017, either the best or second best player in the draft was available at 10 or later. (In order: Paul George picked 10th, Kawhi Leonard picked 15th, Draymond Green picked in the 2nd round, Giannis picked 15th, Jokic picked in the 2nd round, Josh Richardson , the 2nd best player in 2015, picked in the second round, Siakam picked 27th, Donovan Mitchell picked 13th.)
Brunson's draft position doesn't prove his ceiling. All you have to do is look at the draft and you'll see, draft evaluation is VERY prone to errors.
If Detroit cares about building a fantasy team of upside guys, sure go ahead and sell them on Dennis Smith Jr and Josh Jackson's upside. They were drafted high so their ceiling must be grand. Just don't mention they can't play.
If they want an NBA professional who makes good decisions on and off the floor, who plays efficient basketball, won't turn it over, can shoot and will be a good rotation player for a decade, they should go for Brunson.
Look, in my view the NBA draft is about two things. First priority is to get a superstar. That is obvious. Those guys are transcendent and can change a franchise. But the odds are extraordinarily low that Detroit will get a superstar with the Nets pick from Atlanta. Second priority of the draft is to get a solid NBA rotation player. Get a guy who can play. If he's a 30+ minute borderline all-star that's great, but if he's a 24-28 minute high quality backup, that's ok too. Just don't bust.
IMHO Brunson is already a 24 minute high quality backup. And he's played really well when he has started. The kid can play. Would Detroit rather gamble on a top-20 pick in a weak draft? I don't know. If I'm Detroit, I'd take the kid who I know can play, and the pick from Dallas, especially if the draft cognoscenti don't see a huge gap between the pool of players who are expected to go in the 20-40 range.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - DrMav - 01-03-2020
Please no to Drummond
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - vfromlmf - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:46 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I don´t get the JJB > Brunson take.
I was just thinking in context of the playoffs. JJB just has the experience. I'd rather have Brunson long term.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - ItsGoTime - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:27 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: Actually, your opinion was that "most" ANYONE in the NBA can hit 26% of their 3 pointers to support Drummond over Powell, implying that Drummond can shoot threes as good as Dwight Powell.Glad to know you know what my "actual" opinion is.
I guess I didn't qualify the statement enough for you (although I did say "most" as you pointed out, so in a broad sense, there was qualifying), the statement was about Powell, not anyone else. So let me clarify, most anyone in the NBA that is trying to make the 3 a part of their game can hit 26%. That statement isn't nor was about Drummond at all, it was about Powell's inability to make 3's in any significant way, which is what it looked like you were trying to make a case for from the part of your post that I originally quoted.
If we were to bring Drummond in, I wouldn't be looking for him to start jacking up 3's, just as I don't want Powell doing right now, unless it's end of the shot clock/game clock and he's been passed the ball and can't find anyone else open. That wouldn't be why we traded for him. Maybe with some focus and practice, he could become proficient with it, but not right away at all and not in a game situation until he proves in practice he can do it.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Woj: Pistons discussing Drummond trade with ATL and others) - TXBamanut - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 05:43 PM)Tyler Wrote:(01-03-2020, 04:34 PM)JamesConway Wrote: https://twitter.com/vincegoodwill/status/1213210067497041921?s=21
Interesting.
Drummond definitely doesn't fit the spacing paradigm they've been pumping up, but it's hard to find a bigger bruiser to slot next to KP. 1st in the league in rebounds, 3rd in steals, 11th in blocks, and an underrated passer with 2.7 assists per game -- I think Carlisle can find a role for that.
I'm not sure if the Dallas interest is serious or if it's something being spread by the Mavs-friendly agent, but I do think he could work here.
I am, by no means, comparing these two players, because one is obviously better than the other....but Drummond is an incredible upgrade to the Boban type of role on the floor, but he's not remotely the chemistry guy that Boban is.
When you look at per 36, you are basically looking at the same production. Obviously, Drummond is the superior player per se, but production wise, they are similar...except for the blocks.
Boban - 19 p, 15 r, 2 assists, .6 blocks, 0% from three
Drummond - 19 p, 16 r, 3 assists, 2 blocks, 0% from three
Does make you wonder if this is what it would be like IF Boban ***COULD*** play 30 minutes a night regularly... I say that KNOWING that he can't stay on the floor because of his lack of foot speed and fatigue.
If he could learn to shoot a decent percentage from 3 (like GoTime says, which I sincerely DOUBT), he'd be awesome on this team.
(01-03-2020, 06:14 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote:(01-03-2020, 05:27 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: Actually, your opinion was that "most" ANYONE in the NBA can hit 26% of their 3 pointers to support Drummond over Powell, implying that Drummond can shoot threes as good as Dwight Powell.Glad to know you know what my "actual" opinion is.
I guess I didn't qualify the statement enough for you (although I did say "most" as you pointed out, so in a broad sense, there was qualifying), the statement was about Powell, not anyone else. So let me clarify, most anyone in the NBA that is trying to make the 3 a part of their game can hit 26%. That statement isn't nor was about Drummond at all, it was about Powell's inability to make 3's in any significant way, which is what it looked like you were trying to make a case for from the part of your post that I originally quoted.
If we were to bring Drummond in, I wouldn't be looking for him to start jacking up 3's, just as I don't want Powell doing right now, unless it's end of the shot clock/game clock and he's been passed the ball and can't find anyone else open. That wouldn't be why we traded for him. Maybe with some focus and practice, he could become proficient with it, but not right away at all and not in a game situation until he proves in practice he can do it.
I've always known what your point was, but I'm not sure you knew the point you were making. When you post that comment in response to when i'm talking about Drummond vs Powell, then you ARE talking about Drummond whether you like it or not.
Powell shot 30% in college with one season of 45%, he's a career 30% shooter in the pros, and his last two seasons were 31% and 33%...soooooo....I am not holding out hope that Drummond could shoot 20% from 3, because if he could, he already would be doing that at this point.
Everyone talks about how awesome Jason Kidd rebuild his 3 point shot and it was, but he was even going from 35% to 40% when he went to Dallas (with one awesome year of 45%).
That's my opinion that I don't think that Drummond can ever be even respectable. I think we'll see him at the 3 point line like people treat Boban truthfully.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - Luka_Magic - 01-03-2020
Drummond would put this team over the top. His defensive shortcomings could be masked by KP shotblocking. As with any Adams deal I think the Mavs simply don't have the pieces to pull something of this magnitude off, although the interest Detroit has in expiring contracts bodes well for our ability to get something in return for Lee. I can only imagine the Mavs have kicked the tires with Detoit on this thing with some sort of package.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Woj: Pistons discussing Drummond trade with ATL and others) - SleepingHero - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 04:34 PM)JamesConway Wrote: https://twitter.com/vincegoodwill/status/1213210067497041921?s=21
I go run errands and then this dude drops this bombshell.
I can't see why the Mavs would be interested. Mavs themselves said they don't want to make a big trade and break up chemistry.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - vfromlmf - 01-03-2020
@"TXBamanut"
Interesting take. We've all wondered what this team would look like **IF** Boban could start and play 30 minutes.
So you're suggesting a trade for Drummond, who **CAN** start & play 30 minutes while providing Boban-like production, might be the answer.
Very interesting.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - TXBamanut - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 06:23 PM)Luka_Magic Wrote: Drummond would put this team over the top. His defensive shortcomings could be masked by KP shotblocking. As with any Adams deal I think the Mavs simply don't have the pieces to pull something of this magnitude off, although the interest Detroit has in expiring contracts bodes well for our ability to get something in return for Lee. I can only imagine the Mavs have kicked the tires with Detoit on this thing with some sort of package.
The statistics say that he doesn't have defensive shortcomings, which was COMPLETELY a surprise to me. Check the stats yourself.
Here's what I found and posted earlier in the thread, that totally shocked me...
Drummond is...(all these stats are league stats, not position filtered)
"5th in Defensive win shares
5th in Defensive Box Plus Minus
11th in blocks
He's hit a sub-100 defensive rating for 4 of his 8 seasons, and currently is 13th in the NBA in Defensive rating."
(01-03-2020, 06:27 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: @"TXBamanut"
Interesting take. We've all wondered what this team would look like **IF** Boban could start and play 30 minutes.
So you're suggesting a trade for Drummond, who **CAN** start & play 30 minutes while providing Boban-like production, might be the answer.
Very interesting.
It's an interesting possibility... I still am concerned about what it does to the spacing for the floor for 30 minutes, as opposed to what Boban on the floor for 15 does....but it's interesting to say the least.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - omahen - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 06:03 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: IMHO Brunson is already a 24 minute high quality backup.
A quick list of players who play for a bag of peanuts and have similar production as Brunson. Some are also very young, some are already off their rookie contracts and still play for a bag of peanuts: Melton, Frank Jackson, Monte Morris, Mudiay, Napier, Aaron Holiday. Dunn and Ntilikina cost just a little bit more. Point being - it is not so difficult to have a quality back up PG for a low salary. Ergo - Brunson trade value is not high, unless you believe his ceiling is much higher than quality back up. I don't.
(01-03-2020, 06:03 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: Get a guy who can play. If he's a 30+ minute borderline all-star that's great, but if he's a 24-28 minute high quality backup, that's ok too. Just don't bust.
Not really. Lot's of times they gamble on potential, on high ceiling. Usually it is worth more. 24-28 minute high quality backup is not a problem to get in free agency or trade - there are a lot of players. Good legit starters (for manageable salary) are difficult to get, not back-ups.
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - ItsGoTime - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 06:14 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: If he could learn to shoot a decent percentage from 3 (like GoTime says, which I sincerely DOUBT), he'd be awesome on this team.So you think 26% is a decent %? I don't. Decent % starts at about 32% (if not higher). If they can't shoot at least 32%, why would they be allowed to shoot it at all? Also, I do believe Powell has taken an extremely long time to shoot the % he's at and has not shown any improvement.
16-17 - 28.4%
17-18 - 33.3%
18-19 - 30.7%
so far this year (and as I've said all year, there is still lots of basketball to be played) - 26.5%
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - omahen - 01-03-2020
https://twitter.com/townbrad/status/1213232956661260288
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - ClutchDirk - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 06:42 PM)omahen Wrote: https://twitter.com/townbrad/status/1213232956661260288https://media.giphy.com/media/ir1FV4pWSmrXMfTNNY/giphy.gif
RE: NBA Trade Rumors (Pistons discussing Drummond trade with Mavs, ATL, and others) - TXBamanut - 01-03-2020
(01-03-2020, 06:41 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote:(01-03-2020, 06:14 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: If he could learn to shoot a decent percentage from 3 (like GoTime says, which I sincerely DOUBT), he'd be awesome on this team.So you think 26% is a decent %? I don't. Decent % starts at about 32% (if not higher). If they can't shoot at least 32%, why would they be allowed to shoot it at all? Also, I do believe Powell has taken an extremely long time to shoot the % he's at and has not shown any improvement.
16-17 - 28.4%
17-18 - 33.3%
18-19 - 30.7%
so far this year (and as I've said all year, there is still lots of basketball to be played) - 26.5%
Stop trolling, you aren' saving the fact that you were wrong. You brought up 26%, that was YOUR figure.
So stop trying to make up knuckleheaded opinions out of the air to attribute to me, to distract from the fact that you think Drummond is all of a sudden going to shoot a decent percentage with some work and focus, because a) want to trade for him or b) hate Powell or both...whatever. Just stop.