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+--- Thread: ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal? (/showthread.php?tid=2173)
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RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 11-30-2022
(11-30-2022, 12:37 PM)mvossman Wrote: Our "top" 3&D guys have not been playing well on either side of the ball (Green has been better than all of them)
Our 3rd creator spot has been filled by Timmy and he has been terrible
Any minute McGee plays
Last year I felt like we threw out a lot of reasons we were struggling earlier and I think at it's foundation it really came down to your first bullet point. We didn't hit shots or play good defense early and then those things came around later, I think that same narrative can play out for this team (though the ceiling is probably a little lower and the west is a little better now).
I'm worried our third creator problem won't really be solved until Hardy is ready to solve it for us (hopefully by next season) but it will be interesting to see what Kemba can bring.
Anything Hardaway can bring us is gravy at this point. Nights like last night will always pop up every 4th or 5th game where he's a real game changer out there, we really just need his off nights to look more like 3-8 instead of 0-8.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Chicagojk - 11-30-2022
(11-30-2022, 11:49 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: In fact, I just checked and SD is indeed number 10 among SGs in the league sccording to EPM.
Above you have: SGA, Mitchell, P George (he's not really a SG tho), Booker, Harden, Bane, D White, Jrue, Beal
Dinwiddie
Below are: Clarkson, Wagner, Lavine, Oubre, Heurter, DeJounte, Klay, Josh Green! , Herro, Monk, Kispert
Interesting that you label him as a SG. Maybe that is what the issue is? He is really being asked to be a lead guard for portions of the game. He is being asked to play a difficult role...it is almost two different roles. Role 1 is to play next to Luka where you may go two minutes without touching the ball, but when you do touch it you need to take advantage of all the attention on Luka. Role 2 is to lead the offense and be productive as the lead guy in the non Luka minutes. It is a tough role. Jalen grew to be very good at it.
So maybe the answer is to eventually find a lead creator to pair with Dinwiddie. Ideally he would be a bigger player (taller than 6'6 would be ideal). Although this player would also need to be able to handle dual rules: with and without Luka on the floor.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - mvossman - 11-30-2022
(11-30-2022, 12:46 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Last year I felt like we threw out a lot of reasons we were struggling earlier and I think at it's foundation it really came down to your first bullet point. We didn't hit shots or play good defense early and then those things came around later, I think that same narrative can play out for this team (though the ceiling is probably a little lower and the west is a little better now).
I'm worried our third creator problem won't really be solved until Hardy is ready to solve it for us (hopefully by next season) but it will be interesting to see what Kemba can bring.
Anything Hardaway can bring us is gravy at this point. Nights like last night will always pop up every 4th or 5th game where he's a real game changer out there, we really just need his off nights to look more like 3-8 instead of 0-8.
Last year the whole team was struggling with 3 point shooting early, but they only 3&D guy that I thought was struggling overall was Bullock (and he has been worse this year). I think the biggest issue with early last year (other than maybe the poor shooting) was Luka playing poorly (for his standards). We do not have that excuse this year.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo - 12-01-2022
That rumor of Saddiq doesn't seem too realistic.
There's just no way the Mavs can package anything for him.
And I don't think Saddiq is available.
But one guy can.
Would you rather have a PG who's inept at shooting or a supposed PG who can't play make with a slightly better shot?
That's Hayes vs. Frankie
Both busts, both are good defensively, but are lacking in offense.
KH+Noel for Frankie+McGee+ two second round picks
Detroit has time and is gunning for Victor, so Hayes would have all the freedom to play freely, but he has been playing the same way for years with no significant progress (at least stat wise), and come next season, he will be buried on the bench when Cunningham and Ivey gets all the PT. When is the time to give up on Hayes? Maybe the Pistons already did. Just so happen, Cunningham is injured and someone needs to play PG, but nearing the end of the season, it makes no difference if your PG is Frankie or Hayes, the plan is to lose anyway. For McGee, I'd like to think of McGee as a veteran presence for the young Pistons, maybe they'd think of him that way. If anything, McGee is a third string C making less than Noel (who isn't giving them anything, so this one is a wash stat-wise).
For the Mavs: I don't care if Noel doesn't play a single minute as a Mav ever again. But if he does, there can be some use for him in a DP role. Hayes can't shoot. But he does have PG skills and is a good defender. If he can learn to shoot in his hypothetical Mavs tenure, then good. I think he's a worth gamble for 2 seconds, he is still young and even if his track record tells he can't shoot, there is still hope for him. But if he truly does not improve in offense, then he is another defender and ball handler that maybe of better use to the Mavs than the Pistons, specially next season. Just think of him as the younger version of Josh Green who couldn't shoot but can defend (and can dribble).
RE: ROSTER TALK: - HoosierDaddyKid - 12-01-2022
^^ Well...you're about to get a 1st hand look at Hayes later tonight. He has good size and length at 6'5. I just don't know if he's part of Detroit's future.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Kammrath - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 12:45 AM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: Hayes
Give me Killian please!!!
RE: ROSTER TALK: - SleepingHero - 12-01-2022
(11-30-2022, 07:49 AM)Chicagojk Wrote:
I have begun thinking of odd/bad fits but guys who are at least productive (or have been productive in the past). Like how about Vucevic? I have said no in the past and he would appear to not be a good fit. But at least he is a quality starter (although that could be a debate with his play this year).
I've been trying to think along those lines too.
The latest idea that crossed my mind this morning was a Bogdan Bogdanovic+John Collins swap for Wood+ THJ or Bullock. ATL needs defense and shooting and a spark. There's an argument to be made that Bullock and/or THJ could be exactly what they need. I'm skeptical it's realistic, but both teams get stuff they're looking for.
Bogi has been out with an offseason knee surgery, which scares me, but he can create/shoot/dribble. Collins is the real prize and should be a quality starter and Wood replicates a lot of what Collins brings on a lower salary.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - mvossman - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 12:44 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I've been trying to think along those lines too.
The latest idea that crossed my mind this morning was a Bogdan Bogdanovic+John Collins swap for Wood+ THJ or Bullock. ATL needs defense and shooting and a spark. There's an argument to be made that Bullock and/or THJ could be exactly what they need. I'm skeptical it's realistic, but both teams get stuff they're looking for.
Bogi has been out with an offseason knee surgery, which scares me, but he can create/shoot/dribble. Collins is the real prize and should be a quality starter and Wood replicates a lot of what Collins brings on a lower salary.
That is a no brainer for us (especially if its Timmy) so probably not going to happen.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - SleepingHero - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 12:51 PM)mvossman Wrote: That is a no brainer for us (especially if its Timmy) so probably not going to happen.
You're right. But I assume the Mavs probably add draft compensation as well. In which case the deal isn't such a big win anymore.
Even one 1st tips the scales to ATL's favor pretty heavily imo. Especially since Bogi is coming off a knee surgery and Wood/Collins are pretty similar.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 12-01-2022
I went through the Hawks board yesterday on reddit and noticed every trade proposal involved JC and the most interesting piece is that they assume they'll have to attach picks to get off of his contract.
JC straight up for Wood/Bullock feels like exactly what we did with KP last year. I feel like it makes sense for both teams. It's a way to get off a contract without giving up picks and for us it's a guy who fits into what we're doing way better than Wood does They need spacing bad and 2021/2022 Bullock could certainly have provided some while they wait for Bogi and Wood can help fill any front court minutes during this season from JC's loss.
One thing I should add to that is that JC has been having his worst shooting season of his career so far so the time to strike would be now if we truly believe he can help still.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 12:59 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: I went through the Hawks board yesterday on reddit and noticed every trade proposal involved JC and the most interesting piece is that they assume they'll have to attach picks to get off of his contract.
JC straight up for Wood/Bullock feels like exactly what we did with KP last year. I feel like it makes sense for both teams. It's a way to get off a contract without giving up picks and for us it's a guy who fits into what we're doing way better than Wood does They need spacing bad and 2021/2022 Bullock could certainly have provided some while they wait for Bogi and Wood can help fill any front court minutes during this season from JC's loss.
One thing I should add to that is that JC has been having his worst shooting season of his career so far so the time to strike would be now if we truly believe he can help still.
I think Wood MIGHT be the most talented player in this deal, but I’d do it without hesitation.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 01:04 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I think Wood MIGHT be the most talented player in this deal, but I’d do it without hesitation.
I don't disagree but (assuming you'd do this for the same reasons I would) Collins feels like more of a "Kidd" player based on what we've seen over 20 games.
The bigger question is would Cuban be willing to take on the 78 million Collins is owed over the 3 seasons after this one...
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Kammrath - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 12:59 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: every trade proposal involved JC and the most interesting piece is that they assume they'll have to attach picks to get off of his contract.
LET'S GO!!!!!!
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Chicagojk - 12-01-2022
Collins is weird to me. He was awesome in ATL's ECF run two years ago and he does have some eye popping plays. Although too often you see a 12 point 4 rebound stat line from him. Maybe it is the pairing with Capela but you would think they would try to max out his play. Weird.
I think ATL will move him. They have younger players who are going to demand playing time. The thought was Collins would lead them to get another all star caliber player or help them get some of their lost draft capital back. We can't help them there.
I do think a good shooting Bullock would help though. Wood could be a short term solution to fill off the bench. It is interesting, but I think you need Bullock playing much better for a stretch and for ATL not being able to find a more attractive trade.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 01:40 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: Collins is weird to me. He was awesome in ATL's ECF run two years ago and he does have some eye popping plays. Although too often you see a 12 point 4 rebound stat line from him. Maybe it is the pairing with Capela but you would think they would try to max out his play. Weird.
I think ATL will move him. They have younger players who are going to demand playing time. The thought was Collins would lead them to get another all star caliber player or help them get some of their lost draft capital back. We can't help them there.
I do think a good shooting Bullock would help though. Wood could be a short term solution to fill off the bench. It is interesting, but I think you need Bullock playing much better for a stretch and for ATL not being able to find a more attractive trade.
Great thoughts here.
I fully believe that he is just being utilized incorrectly because of their current roster construction. His second year in the league he was playing 47% of his minutes at the 5 and this year he has played 2%. The emergence of Okongwu (who btw is slowing turning into the player everyone thought Jonathan Issac would become) has made it basically impossible for him to find minutes there where he can be a very dynamic rim runner and pick and roll partner to Trae. He also held his own defensively against the likes of Embiid during his solo minutes at center during that ECF run so it really just feels like the roster changes have kind of iced him out of his best role as opposed to him playing himself out of that role.
It does beg the question though, would Kidd even use him properly if he was here? Based on his usage of Wood I have concerns about the answer. Would he need to be paired with Maxi the same way Wood is so he can be used as a rim runner? Would his shooting come back enough for him to handle a ton of minutes at the 4? It obviously all comes down to his defense as the 5 in Kidd's eyes and while he clearly wants a bigger rim protector/rebounder in that spot based on the McGee signing, he also clearly will take someone who makes great rotations despite lacking those two traits (Powell) over someone who is easily the best offensive big on the roster (Wood). I want to believe that he is a headier player than Wood on the defensive side of the ball and will earn more trust to play minutes at the 5 in this system the same way we've trusted Powell but I also told myself that all Wood has to do is learn how to rotate like Powell to take his minutes and I've been wrong about that so far.
The idea of Bullock needing to play better to make the trade attractive is kind of funny because Atlanta needs the same thing out of Collins right now to make him more attractive. Do those two facts perhaps cancel each other out in a way? Even if Collins does see a little uptick (which he has in over the past few games last I checked), it feels a lot like the KP situation and how this board spoke of the expectations of a hypothetical return vs the reality of what taking on that contract means to owners and the value in that action alone.
At the end of the day it feels like this is definitely the year he finally gets traded not only because of young talent like Hunter and Okongwu but also because they're already at the tax line for next season even before addressing free agents like Bogi (Player Option) and extensions like Okongwu. That's why I think our package will be intriguing to them because it saves 68 to 73 mil after this season depending on how they handle Bullock's contract. Obviously requires our owner to open his wallet which is something we haven't seen lately.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Kammrath - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 03:09 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: would Kidd even use him properly if he was here?
I don't trust Kidd to use ANYONE correctly at this point. He has completely lost my trust.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 03:09 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: I fully believe that he is just being utilized incorrectly because of their current roster construction. His second year in the league he was playing 47% of his minutes at the 5 and this year he has played 2%. The emergence of Okongwu (who btw is slowing turning into the player everyone thought Jonathan Issac would become) has made it basically impossible for him to find minutes there where he can be a very dynamic rim runner and pick and roll partner to Trae. He also held his own defensively against the likes of Embiid during his solo minutes at center during that ECF run so it really just feels like the roster changes have kind of iced him out of his best role as opposed to him playing himself out of that role.
Interesting.
My take was based on the idea that since Wood can't get time at the 5, Collins would be a better fit with Powell or Kleber or even *gulp* McGee.
But, it seems like you think Collins' down year is due to him also not being able to play the 5. I don't watch ATL enough to know, but if you're correct then he'd probably be just as out of place here as he is in ATL. Same situation, basically.
And, if either player is going to have us sitting around depressed, wishing Kidd would get him matched up with opposing bigs rather than forwards, then I suppose I'll retract my "I'd do it without hesitation" take and hold onto Wood. I think he's the more rare talent of the two, and if Wood's time here (so far) is any indication of how Collins would fit I'm not sure I want to be on the hook for that contract.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 04:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Interesting.
My take was based on the idea that since Wood can't get time at the 5, Collins would be a better fit with Powell or Kleber or even *gulp* McGee.
But, it seems like you think Collins' down year is due to him also not being able to play the 5. I don't watch ATL enough to know, but if you're correct then he'd probably be just as out of place here as he is in ATL. Same situation, basically.
And, if either player is going to have us sitting around depressed, wishing Kidd would get him matched up with opposing bigs rather than forwards, then I suppose I'll retract my "I'd do it without hesitation" take and hold onto Wood. I think he's the more rare talent of the two, and if Wood's time here (so far) is any indication of how Collins would fit I'm not sure I want to be on the hook for that contract.
Well it's kind of semantics and maybe you were saying this in your reply but I don't think it's Collins not being able to play the 5 and rather Collins not getting the opportunity to play the 5 because they have 2 very talented centers that would be tough to sit. I also think that Collins' career shooting numbers (upper 30s on 3.5 threes a game) should make him useful as a 4, he just needs to get back to those numbers. I just think he (like Wood) is MUCH more useful at the 5 offensively.
I think that Kidd has no clue what to do with Wood because he can't play defense at EITHER position but my hope is that Collins can show that he can play a little bit of defense at both positions which will help Kidd feel a little better about going small more often.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 12-01-2022
(12-01-2022, 04:55 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Well it's kind of semantics and maybe you were saying this in your reply but I don't think it's Collins not being able to play the 5 and rather Collins not getting the opportunity to play the 5 because they have 2 very talented centers
Yes, what I meant by "able" was "allowed."
RE: ROSTER TALK: - dynamicalVoid - 12-16-2022
Mavs would trade Luka for Danny Green and PJ Walker if the situation arose.
And use stats on paper to justify.