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+--- Thread: ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal? (/showthread.php?tid=2173)
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RE: ROSTER TALK: - IamDougieFresh - 10-18-2022
After about a month of getting used to Kidd’s defensive system, Wood will be solid out there. Book it. He we be great on offense out of the gate. It will quickly become disrespectful to keep him coming off the bench.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 10-19-2022
(10-18-2022, 05:50 PM)F Gump Wrote: You can argue that being able to handle GS then will make you good enough against the rest - but you'd be wrong. All big man groups and team strengths to play against are not alike. For example, if you can't get past Towns-Gobert in playoffs, you might not even get to GS. Or GS might not get past them, and then the hurdle is not GS but someone else. And MINN's a completely different animal to deal with, requiring quite a different big-man roster. I'm not saying the Mavs chosen plan does ALL of that, but it's a helluva lot more flexible than what you wanted them to settle for.
I’m arguing that not playing a guy like McGee is precisely HOW they got by Gobert last season. They put Kleber in the corner and made Gobert choose his own poison. Spoiler alert: there was no right choice.
Towns is a bit of a different challenge because in theory he can punish smaller guys inside, but honestly from what I’ve seen lately, even the few who can do that prefer not to play that way most of the time. How many guys are we talking about…Towns, Embiid and Davis? I’d prefer Kleber against any one of those players over McGee, tbh. I do concede that you need multiple options to deal with guys like that, and that McGee should help reduce wear and tear on some of the others, but that could have been accomplished in a less destructive way, surely.
I continue to be more worried about teams that can move the ball and make Dino-bigs seem obsolete because there seem to me to be significantly more of them. I hope the Mavs are still among their number at season’s end.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 10-19-2022
(10-18-2022, 08:46 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: For me the addition of Wood was enough if all they wanted was a short term solution. With all the additional needs (big wing, playmaker) it feels like they invested a lot of their meager assets into bigs.
Perfectly stated, imo. I agree completely.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 10-19-2022
(10-18-2022, 08:49 PM)HAguiar95 Wrote: Man, this new "take foul" rule is giving me nightmares. I've been thinking about how many times we abused it last season and Luka/Hardaway non-existent transition defense.
Yeah, I’m with you. I tried to get a convo going when this rule change was announced, but nobody seemed interested. I think this is potentially a HUGE issue for the Mavs. Not only do they have some lazy tendencies when it comes to guard play in transition (as you say), but their overall team speed took a pretty big hit this off-season.
There is nothing worse than watching the team who can’t play transition defense. I trust Kidd at this point, but part of me is super worried about this for our Mavs.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - F Gump - 10-19-2022
I noted the problem with Towns-Gobert. Answering that the Mavs beat a team with Gobert is completely non-responsive -- it's so very NOT the same obstacle at all.
The answer in some cases MIGHT be small ball (as you prefer) and smaller ball (as you prefer) and even smallest --- but it's not always the best answer. Sometimes there needs to be some way on your team to stop the bleeding if you're getting killed in the middle.
Maxi alone, as the only competent playable center, isn't enough to handle GS. Or Minn. Or any number of other teams. Or keep from breaking down if played long minutes for 82 games. They did get him some help, and what they did almost certainly didn't keep them from ANY other opportunity to address other areas of need.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - dirkfansince1998 - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 01:02 AM)F Gump Wrote: I noted the problem with Towns-Gobert. Answering that the Mavs beat a team with Gobert is completely non-responsive -- it's so very NOT the same obstacle at all.
The answer in some cases MIGHT be small ball (as you prefer) and smaller ball (as you prefer) and even smallest --- but it's not always the best answer. Sometimes there needs to be some way on your team to stop the bleeding if you're getting killed in the middle.
Maxi alone, as the only competent playable center, isn't enough to handle GS. Or Minn. Or any number of other teams. Or keep from breaking down if played long minutes for 82 games. They did get him some help, and what they did almost certainly didn't keep them from ANY other opportunity to address other areas of need.
They had two major assets this summer. A first round pick and the taxMLE. Both of them invested into bigs. And you are arguing that it didn´t prevent them from addressing other needs?
For some reason Mavs fans have an obsession with extremly limited bigs. And even worse. The front office shares it. I remember when people tried to convince me that DAJ would be the solution. Twice. That Whiteside would be the answer. That Boban should be in the rotation. That KP isn´t a liability on defense. Rinse...repeat...failure.
And now it is McGee. It´s beyond me. Like we aren´t even watching the same sport. I will never understand the mindset behind those ideas. Probably the best option to go with @"DanSchwartzgan" approach and leave it at that.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - ItsGoTime - 10-19-2022
I feel like wear and tear is being given lip service. There is a reason AD went to the Lakers and immediately said he would not play C during the season, but will do whatever it takes in the playoffs to win. Other players don’t really have the clout or understanding of their body’s limits (or care for) to ask.
I can’t remember a time in NBA history where there were so many stars out for the playoffs due to injury than there have been recently. Players are being asked (or are asking) to do too much. All teams employ players that can handle the dinosaurs that are still out there (and are probably not going away). Neither Powell nor Maxi have shown that they are up to the task. Time will tell if our solution was the right one, but I see the McGee addition as a necessary evil, if in fact he shows to be the dinosaur he’s being touted as.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - omahen - 10-19-2022
(10-18-2022, 08:46 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: In the Mavs price range? No proven players. Only upside kids like Jalen Smith or Thomas Bryant. Maybe the Mavs willingness to offer additonal years would have been enough to secure one of the guys in the 5-10m range. For me the addition of Wood was enough if all they wanted was a short term solution. With all the additional needs (big wing, playmaker) it feels like they invested a lot of their meager assets into bigs.
But that brings us back to the overall plan and idea of the people in charge. And it gives me a bad feeling because I don´t see any longterm plan. McGee feels like a three season stop gap. Mavs admitting that they don´t have the necessary talent and no way to add in the near future.
Leaving us with the usual Donnie era talking points. A trade in the future. Saving assets for the big move. Being opportunistic.
Mavs are acting as if they are contenders since year two of Luka era. Keeping the team together and investing assets in improvements around the edges. As you say, waiting for that one big move to happen (which might never happen). But not hoarding assets that would actually improve their position when such a player becomes available.
I hope they prove me wrong, but I think they are far from serious contender, as proven by results in last three years. Even when they made it to top 4 last season, I think they were much closer to the teams below them than teams above. I don't think Mavs improved, teams above them stayed mostly the same or better (Boston) and there are several teams below that have a much stronger outlook this season. Never in this three years they managed to generate a single asset.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Jason Terry - 10-19-2022
Nice convo going on in this thread. McGee isn’t the GSW solution and probably won’t play much in most playoff series. I see him as just a better tool in our toolbox. An upgrade from Powell. Better rebounder and rim protecting Dino-big. Useful to get there, but not important when it matters
It’s Wood. Yes we need Luka to be MVP(vegas thinks there’s a good chance). Dinwiddie needs to be healthy and fit into his expanded role. But it’s Wood. Wood needs to have a career year. The season depends on him turning into a two way player. If he can rim protect AND switch onto the perimeter, then we have a 2nd Maxi and can match up better against the big dogs
First time Wood has been put in a decent situation. Stranger things have happened. Of course if he does this and we don’t extend him we will lose him. Still a decent 1 year gamble considering the assets we had at our disposal
RE: ROSTER TALK: - omahen - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 06:27 AM)Jason Terry Wrote: But it’s Wood. Wood needs to have a career year. The season depends on him turning into a two way player. If he can rim protect AND switch onto the perimeter, then we have a 2nd Maxi and can match up better against the big dogs
It is very obvious, there were not any people that would seriously believe that something like this is realistic. Price to get him was a late FRP and there are reasons for that.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 01:02 AM)F Gump Wrote: The answer in some cases MIGHT be small ball (as you prefer) and smaller ball (as you prefer) and even smallest --- but it's not always the best answer. Sometimes there needs to be some way on your team to stop the bleeding if you're getting killed in the middle.
I have absolutely zero desire for them to play "small". Never once have I said that, ever. I want them to play athletic bigs who can move their feet. Finding the biggest guys who can move their feet is my goal if I'm making decisions, BUT I prioritize the feet-moving OVER the size.
Size is irrelevant (truly) when it comes in statue form. That type of player will match up worse with the teams you're worried about, imo.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 01:02 AM)F Gump Wrote: Maxi alone, as the only competent playable center, isn't enough to handle GS. Or Minn. Or any number of other teams.
Agreed. If I come across one single person suggesting otherwise I'll be sure to set them straight.
Me? I've repeatedly given credit to the idea that McGee will help by "eating innings" and being "another option" to throw out there when you need it.
However, now that we're talking about this specific angle, I would caution people not to assume McGee is going to be a "competent, playable center" by playoff time. He has already lost enough of a step to convince Monty Williams he wasn't playable when their season was on the line. It's a little encouraging that the team who played him to the bench thought enough of him to sign him, I guess, but then again, this new front office hasn't done enough yet for me to trust they're not just throwing darts at players' photos on a pinboard.
I don't know - to me it just seems like they used the whole MLE (during a summer in which the MLE really mattered) on a guy who can't really help in the playoffs.
Time will tell on all of this, obviously.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 06:46 AM)omahen Wrote: It is very obvious, there were not any people that would seriously believe that something like this is realistic. Price to get him was a late FRP and there are reasons for that.
Unfortunately, there's quite a bit of obvious logic here. I think we can tell a lot about how the Mavs view Wood by what they did with the rest of their summer.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 10-19-2022
Feels like a lot of concern about a guy who won't play more than 15 minutes a game. This conversation is confusing me because there's a lot of talk about how we got past team by playing Maxi as our big because he can space the floor and defend and space...guys Maxi is still on the team. I don't think the Mavs are investing in McGee the same way this board thinks they are. He's simply a better rebounding Powell who will play a similar role and I think the roster will make more sense again by the playoffs, there's no reason to keep Powell on this roster with his expiring.
On the Christian Wood front...can we watch the guy play first? This is probably the best PnR partner that Luka has ever had (and that Wood has ever had) so let's see what it looks like if we lean into that a bit. His defense is concerning but he has all the tools and I believe Sweeney can put him in good positions so let's give a chance before we decide he's a giant problem on that end. The plan certainly seems to be playing him with Maxi a lot so Maxi can cover up some of those short comings by guarding the best opposing offensive big so I'm interested to see how that plays out.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - mvossman - 10-19-2022
(10-18-2022, 08:46 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: In the Mavs price range? No proven players. Only upside kids like Jalen Smith or Thomas Bryant. Maybe the Mavs willingness to offer additonal years would have been enough to secure one of the guys in the 5-10m range. For me the addition of Wood was enough if all they wanted was a short term solution. With all the additional needs (big wing, playmaker) it feels like they invested a lot of their meager assets into bigs.
But that brings us back to the overall plan and idea of the people in charge. And it gives me a bad feeling because I don´t see any longterm plan. McGee feels like a three season stop gap. Mavs admitting that they don´t have the necessary talent and no way to add in the near future.
Leaving us with the usual Donnie era talking points. A trade in the future. Saving assets for the big move. Being opportunistic.
I was on the Jalen Smith bus. I would have preferred that to the McGee signing.
I can see the argument to being done with bigs after the Wood signing. A lot depends on whether Wood can hold his own as the single big. I am skeptical and prefer pairing him with Maxi, which would mean less need for a big wing and more need for big depth.
To me the Donnie era talking points (at least after the chip) were dominated by plan powder. It was about generating cap space. I much prefer the newer ideas of saving assets for a big trade in the future and being opportunistic.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - mvossman - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 08:22 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Agreed. If I come across one single person suggesting otherwise I'll be sure to set them straight.
Me? I've repeatedly given credit to the idea that McGee will help by "eating innings" and being "another option" to throw out there when you need it.
However, now that we're talking about this specific angle, I would caution people not to assume McGee is going to be a "competent, playable center" by playoff time. He has already lost enough of a step to convince Monty Williams he wasn't playable when their season was on the line. It's a little encouraging that the team who played him to the bench thought enough of him to sign him, I guess, but then again, this new front office hasn't done enough yet for me to trust they're not just throwing darts at players' photos on a pinboard.
I don't know - to me it just seems like they used the whole MLE (during a summer in which the MLE really mattered) on a guy who can't really help in the playoffs.
Time will tell on all of this, obviously.
I think he may contribute some to the playoffs. It will be matchup dependent. We are talking about the tax MLE and I think we carved some of it out for Hardy? It is hard to find players for less than full tax MLE that will contribute in playoffs. I know this is a really low bar, but I feel like we will get more out of this tax MLE (McGee/Hardy) than we did out of the full MLE two years ago (Burke/WCS/Terry).
RE: ROSTER TALK: - ItsGoTime - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 11:07 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Feels like a lot of concern about a guy who won't play more than 15 minutes a game. This conversation is confusing me because there's a lot of talk about how we got past team by playing Maxi as our big because he can space the floor and defend and space...guys Maxi is still on the team. I don't think the Mavs are investing in McGee the same way this board thinks they are. He's simply a better rebounding Powell who will play a similar role and I think the roster will make more sense again by the playoffs, there's no reason to keep Powell on this roster with his expiring.So, I’m mostly with you on this. The one unknown yet is the fear that KL keeps bringing up in that Powell is still on the team and is a part of the leadership council. That, to me, could point to him getting minutes in the rotation too. IF that is the case, I’m closer to his side of the argument myself. That 18 mpg turns into 28-30 mpg (maybe even more). That leaves much less room for the Wood/Maxi pairing than I had imagined (and much less time for both to be the lone “big” on the floor).
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Kammrath - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 11:26 AM)mvossman Wrote: I can see the argument to being done with bigs after the Wood signing.
I personally cannot.
Maxi needs to be limited in games and minutes.
DP is clearly done and only an emergency big according to the Mavs and likely headed out in a trade before the season is over.
DB cannot be counted on to play any 5 and who knows the state of his health.
DFS is not a big.
That leaves the two new signees, Wood and McGee, unless someone wanted the Mavs to bring Boban back.
The Mavs HAD to sign someone like McGee even after trading for Wood. It would have been roster mismanagement IMO if they hadn't.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 11:52 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: So, I’m mostly with you on this. The one unknown yet is the fear that KL keeps bringing up in that Powell is still on the team and is a part of the leadership council. That, to me, could point to him getting minutes in the rotation too. IF that is the case, I’m closer to his side of the argument myself. That 18 mpg turns into 28-30 mpg (maybe even more). That leaves much less room for the Wood/Maxi pairing than I had imagined (and much less time for both to be the lone “big” on the floor).
Time will tell for sure and honestly I won't be surprised if Powell has a small role cut out for him early on but he certainly won't have one in the playoffs if he's even on the team.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - ItsGoTime - 10-19-2022
(10-19-2022, 11:54 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: Time will tell for sure and honestly I won't be surprised if Powell has a small role cut out for him early on but he certainly won't have one in the playoffs if he's even on the team.I think this is a case of one man’s certainty is another man’s fear! The leadership council thing is what swayed me a bit from my previous assumptions. Although, my hope is that we upgrade 2 players on the leadership council like we did last year with one of the players.