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ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal? - Printable Version

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RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 12:52 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I already voiced my opinion on the topic and I don´t think it is a good look for the fanbase.


I believe you're referring to flip-flopping, after the fact, sore loser style. I agree with you, but I also kind of understand that, at least. 

I'm talking about the number of people I recognize, but who maybe don't post that frequently, coming out of the woodwork seemingly glad the guy is gone. It's as if they've been reading all of our praise of the kid for the past year shaking their heads. Truly, I had no idea there were still people who were out on his game. I honestly thought he had won everyone over at this point.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - dirkfansince1998 - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 12:56 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I believe you're referring to flip-flopping, after the fact, sore loser style. I agree with you, but I also kind of understand that, at least. 

I'm talking about the number of people I recognize, but who maybe don't post that frequently, coming out of the woodwork seemingly glad the guy is gone. It's as if they've been reading all of our praise of the kid for the past year shaking their heads. Truly, I had no idea there were still people who were out on his game. I honestly thought he had won everyone over at this point.

I think @"Dundalis" has been pretty consistent. If I remember it correctly he didn´t like Brunson as Luka´s longterm backcourt partner. Even after the playoff run. Main concerns being team defense with two mediocre perimeter defenders and lack of off ball game on offense. A little bit like Lillard/McCollum in Portland.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Mavsfan12 - 07-07-2022

(07-06-2022, 11:11 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I suppose it all depends on what else we're getting back. I do think Sexton as a player (and asset) is worth moving off THJ to grab Sexton. I suppose you don't value him? That's fine and well. He has his warts.

I think there's something to be said about just getting Schroeder. I'm not against that move especially since it doesn't require any complicated cap work, but that assumes Schroeder even wants to go anywhere on a minimum contract. Dirkfan mentioned earlier about how it's a bit odd that there aren't any suitors for Schroeder for anything above the minimum. Surely there has to be some BAE exception lurking out there for him to take? In which case is he even a viable option?

I think we could sell him on the idea that he'd be featured here and could play for his next contract, but it isn't like Schroeder hasn't had his opportunities for that. Bledsoe looks about done in this league in terms of playing meaningful basketball minutes. I would 100% pay a premium on someone else to avoid Bledsoe. 

I think that if it were THJ for Sexton straight up, our need for a playmaker would make that trade work.  But it is not.  It is Trading THJ for air - which isn't free - and then turning around and paying assets for sexton.  That is too expensive, imo.  I would rather find a backup PG for a vet min or in some other trade.  Sexton's defense is worse than THJ's and while he is a creator, it isn't usually for others.  I think it is too many warts for the price tag.  If you're paying him 20M, wth were they thinking not paying JB 25 and no other assets?  I don't buy it.  If he was mle to 12M?  Maybe, depending on the assets needed to dump THJ and trade for Sexton.  Ive heard both numbers so not sure what his value is at.  Let's just say that the Sexton path is one of my least favorite of all of the plans that have been passed around this offseason.  He isn't what I would be interested in for that kind of investment of assets/money.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - mvossman - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 01:07 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I think @"Dundalis" has been pretty consistent. If I remember it correctly he didn´t like Brunson as Luka´s longterm backcourt partner. Even after the playoff run. Main concerns being team defense with two mediocre perimeter defenders and lack of off ball game on offense. A little bit like Lillard/McCollum in Portland.

If that's the viewpoint, I have no idea why he would be angling for Sexton, who is a significantly worse defender than Brunson.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Mavsfan12 - 07-07-2022

(07-06-2022, 11:26 PM)Dundalis Wrote: False. Sexton can shoot, and doesn't have a TS hovering around 50%. If Westbrook could actually shoot he wouldn't be spoken about in meme fashion like he is.


My responses have been directly responding to comments about how untouchable our role players are. That there are comments specifically about trade scenario's we have come up with is neither here nor there.

As for the second part, there are exceptions to every rule. But by and large, yes, you can replace existing players with 'better' players and very much expect to see better results. That's literally what happens in a game where only 5 players control your fortunes at any time. I get there are issues with fit. I didn't want Gobert here or any non shooting big, even though as soon as the season finished every Mavs fan and his dog was screaming for a paint defending big, pretty much like every year since Dirk was drafted with the exception of maybe when Dampier was first signed and when we had Tyson. I was opposed to that cacophony from the start. I'd take Harris for anyone not named Luka for example, certainly including Bullock or DFS. Any downgrade on defense (Harris is an above avg defender IMO) is more than made up by shot creation.

Our offense was middle of the pack last year. Our defense was top 10. Say you reversed that through trades. Top 10 offense, middle of the pack defense. Effectively our standing doesn't change. That obviously isn't apples for apples comparison, but all I'm highlighting is that this team has some serious weaknesses, and if you fill those weaknesses but weaken another area, that doesn't automatically translate to us being a worse team.

Bottom line is I was mostly responding directly to specific comments about the importance of role players in our team that I thought were over the top and not particularly objective. It's been absolutely rampant, not just here, but on reddit and every other Mavs forum around to a level I've not seen having been around Mavs forums for a good 20 years. It is not confined to just discussing specific trade scenario's, I literally responded directly to comments saying guys like Bullock and DFS are irreplaceable. That is a definitive statement that has nothing to do with specific trade scenarios.

There are some fundamental things that I disagree with in your philosophy.  I will reply, then maybe we will just have to disagree.  First, I would prefer our defense to be elite to go with our offense.  I think our offense is plenty strong and built for the playoffs as currently constituted - assuming we add a backup PG.  The addition of Wood to balance out our attack is going to make a huge difference and make us much more consistent night in/out.  Plus adding THJ back into the mix.  We have a strong offense and I think we will be around 10th.  

The defense, on the other hand started out strong, but really deteriorated as the season progressed.  It was a problem in the playoffs.  I think Nico clearly stated that and made moves to add more size/rim protection/rebounding/interior presence.  We will see if Wood can ramp up his defense, but we know that McGee brings that.  I don't think that you will be better off to add Harris to this front court, unless it is sending out non-essential pieces.  

That brings me to your comment about DFS/Bull being "irreplaceable".  Let's be clear... they are NOT.  But their skillsets would have to be upgraded - not removed.  You can't trade them for offensive one way players without seriously impacting this teams' ability to defend - and therefore win.  If you are seeing a lot of backlash across multiple mavs boards when the subject of trading them comes up - and you are seeing proposals like the ones we are talking about here (trading them for offensive players), then that is VALID. You don't have to agree with it.  But I assure you that players that are getting nearly 40 min/game in the playoffs are ESSENTIAL to what the team is trying to do.  This is further fortified by their primary targets in FA the last two seasons - adding Bullock/McGee.  This is how the Mavs are intentionally building their team and how Jkidd is gameplanning.  Not sure if it could be any more clear.

I like Harris, and I would root for him.  But if money was the same, I would choose Bridges (suns) over him.  I think the Mavs would too.  And he is nearly half the salary.  I just think that Harris/Wood is a pretty wimpy frontcourt.  We'd have to be the top offense in the League to overcome that.  You would have a LOT of shooting though.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Okstate819 - 07-07-2022

It makes very little sense that Dorsey would be the guy we were holding a final roster spot for (especially over Dragic). I have to believe we have another shoe to drop soon that sends out more than we receive to create another roster spot. Makes me revisit the Bertans/Powell/Bullock for Harris/Thybulle theory.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 09:17 AM)Okstate819 Wrote: It makes very little sense that Dorsey would be the guy we were holding a final roster spot for (especially over Dragic). I have to believe we have another shoe to drop soon that sends out more than we receive to create another roster spot. Makes me revisit the Bertans/Powell/Bullock for Harris/Thybulle theory.

Idk, my guy. 

I think this might be it.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Okstate819 - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 09:24 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Idk, my guy. 

I think this might be it.

Could be and would be highly disappointing.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022

I do think that as more time goes by without the Brunson signing being official, the easier it is to see truth in @"F Gump"'s belief that some kind of sign and trade is coming with the Brunson situation. 

Getting tougher to figure out what that might be with roster spots disappearing, but hopefully they've got something brewing.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Branduil - 07-07-2022

I feel like you can only safely have a maximum of one "Guy who needs constant coaching attention to stay in the right mindset" on your team at a time and we just traded for Wood, so Sexton would probably not be a safe add even if it was CBA legal.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 09:38 AM)Branduil Wrote: I feel like you can only safely have a maximum of one "Guy who needs constant coaching attention to stay in the right mindset" on your team at a time and we just traded for Wood, so Sexton would probably not be a safe add even if it was CBA legal.

Yeah...and for THJ (one of those responsible for the team's chemistry and attitude) outgoing, it makes even less sense. Mix in Brunson (unquestionably one of the team's recent leaders) outgoing, and I can envision the entire "work ethic/team-oriented" complexion of the team becoming pretty gross pretty much overnight.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Chicagojk - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 09:24 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Idk, my guy. 

I think this might be it.

They can't be done...they just can't.  Now is it a small on the edges move or something bigger....I don't know.   If it is a smaller move, the Dorsey thing would still not make sense to me.    Losing Jalen for nothing (or almost nothing) and not adding another wing (their stated need) would substantially lower my offfseason grade range.  

So more needs to be coming.   To not get my hopes up, I am thinking about some fringe move or two. 

Dorsey seems like someone who plays with some emotion but is a little small.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDkc6m24Lf8


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 09:51 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: Dorsey seems like someone who plays with some emotion but is a little small.


Is he small? Seems like this is the 3rd ball-handling guard we know they need, or at least someone to compete with Hardy for that position. 

I agree, it's not sexy at this moment, but I think I get what they're going for with the signing. I guess we should hold off until we see the contract, but this seems like a simple case of filling out the roster on a budget, to me.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Winter - 07-07-2022

The other possibility about the Dorsey addition is that perhaps the Mavs know another player like Green is outgoing soon in a package. In that case it makes more sense as a roster addition.

After all, we haven't heard from any beat reporters about this yet. Perhaps this information we're getting was a bit officially premature.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - hakeemfaan - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 01:07 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: I think @"Dundalis" has been pretty consistent. If I remember it correctly he didn´t like Brunson as Luka´s longterm backcourt partner. Even after the playoff run. Main concerns being team defense with two mediocre perimeter defenders and lack of off ball game on offense. A little bit like Lillard/McCollum in Portland.

My question there is nothing changed before the Brunson draft. He was a short dude who would also struggle defensively.  Yet the Mavs drafted him. Not just that. As opposed to many with better measurables, picked before and after him,  who inevitably could not cut it, Jalen proved he was a legit NBA player. 


So if after all that we are coming back to measurables then:
a) The Mavs should never draft basketball players and should just look for athletes even if they will get cut soon
b) The Mavs should look to trade these guys who do make it despite poor measurables if they feel they will never get into a bidding war for these types of players. 

Or option c is Stop focusing on certain negatives. There are no guaranteed paths to titles. When you have legit talent keep that talent even if it is a slight overpay. Don’t rush to sign mediocre players like DP. Irrational focus on measurables might also be somewhat ok, but losing one of the few players we actually managed to hit on correctly for nothing is inexcusable.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 10:08 AM)hakeemfaan Wrote: So if after all that we are coming back to measurables then:
a) The Mavs should never draft basketball players and should just look for athletes even if they will get cut soon
b) The Mavs should look to trade these guys who do make it despite poor measurables if they feel they will never get into a bidding war for these types of players. 

Or option c is Stop focusing on certain negatives. There are no guaranteed paths to titles. When you have legit talent keep that talent even if it is a slight overpay. Don’t rush to sign mediocre players like DP. Irrational focus on measurables might also be somewhat ok, but losing one of the few players we actually managed to hit on correctly for nothing is inexcusable.

I'm not following you, sorry. It seems like you're conflating what some fans think with what the Mavs think. I think history has proven that despite any petty gripes fans might've had about the Brunson pick, the Mavs were on their game that night and he was one of the best draft selections in franchise history. And it's clear they wanted to keep him, I believe.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - hakeemfaan - 07-07-2022

KL. I am saying the fans who are too casually dismissing Brunson are making too much of measurables.  We would not have won a title without JJB or JeT.  OTOH I can name you many players with perfect height and athleticism who just could not play. 

As for the Mavs, I am not giving them the benefit of doubt either. Sure they drafted him and hit on him but looks like they were caught up in the same type of mindset as some of these fans. They underrated him. Sure they wanted to keep him but at a cost that didn’t seem to match his on court impact and productivity. OTOH if their rating of him is correct, then again they should have traded him sooner than later.


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - MAVS-SLO - 07-07-2022

Currently there are too many non logical things that they are going behind the scenes.

I understand passing on Goran if they had something better in the plan, but Tyler Dorsey? Passing on a vet presence and one of the closest Luka's friend to get a worse version of Moses Wright? 

I really hope there is something more in backround or is Cuban really so stingy?

Next thing is still JB situation. 

Why the deal isn't official yet?

I mean, Knicks can easily sign him and just waived Gibson? Right.

Also i don't think that they would try to do sign & trade if their punishemnt would only be losing 2 round in next year, so maybe there are some things that they are going on behind the scenes.

I don't want to my hopes go up, but could JB s&t possibly be connected to Green absence from a summer league (Reddish maybe)?

I just hope we don't end up with another TPE, because it will not be used. 

Or. maybe Green could become involed in some kind of 2-3 teams trade (Sexton) ?

I'm sure something is going on behind the scenes, i just don't know if those things are optimistic for us...


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Smitty - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 10:40 AM)MAVS-SLO Wrote: Currently there are too many non logical things that they are going behind the scenes.

I understand passing on Goran if they had something better in the plan, but Tyler Dorsey? Passing on a vet presence and one of the closest Luka's friend to get a worse version of Moses Wright? 

I really hope there is something more in backround or is Cuban really so stingy?

Next thing is still JB situation. 

Why the deal isn't official yet?

I mean, Knicks can easily sign him and just waived Gibson? Right.

Also i don't think that they would try to do sign & trade if their punishemnt would only be losing 2 round in next year, so maybe there are some things that they are going on behind the scenes.

I don't want to my hopes go up, but could JB s&t possibly be connected to Green absence from a summer league (Reddish maybe)?

I just hope we don't end up with another TPE, because it will not be used. 

Or. maybe Green could become involed in some kind of 2-3 teams trade (Sexton) ?

I'm sure something is going on behind the scenes, i just don't know if those things are optimistic for us...

Now knowing that Green’s option has to be picked up before the season, I also wonder if he’ll be outgoing in some deal and that helps explain the Dorsey signing? Nico didn’t draft Green…


RE: ROSTER TALK: DAL "gearing up for big trade for wing"? | "unlikely" DP is kept? - Winter - 07-07-2022

(07-07-2022, 10:51 AM)Smitty Wrote: Now knowing that Green’s option has to be picked up before the season, I also wonder if he’ll be outgoing in some deal and that helps explain the Dorsey signing? Nico didn’t draft Green…


I mentioned this on a post on the other page.

It makes sense if we assume the Dorsey announcement is slightly premature. As best I can find out, the release of this has been mostly from European sources. At some point very soon, they would need to announce some roster moves or at least make this signing more official in some other way. It's hard to see it without something else going on simultaneously.