(07-05-2022, 01:49 PM)F Gump Wrote: 3 Westbrook doesn't really help your roster building. He's junk on your bench for a year, then gone. But the others might at some point.

(07-05-2022, 02:04 PM)cow Wrote: I'd do junk for junk if it meant getting off of Bertans, but Powell + Bertans doesn't get you there and we don't have the additional salary filler that would make both feel comfortable.  I think the Lakers might actually appreciate Bertans as lord knows they could use some shooting but you still might need to tip them for the contract.  It's that fine line between some value and too much value.

(07-05-2022, 02:16 PM)F Gump Wrote: Not that it's possible, of course, but if it could be just Bertans-Powell, I'd be tempted. But I still might say no on RW.

I really think Bertans will offer better contributions this season, because you have a specific role to use Big Man Shooting 3s. Whereas, I'm not sure how you use RW and get something helpful. And I think when you're elite, you fill out your roster to maximize your chances this season, save a really good young addition that you know just needs some time. There aren't a lot of minutes to waste when prepping to play for higher stakes.

(07-05-2022, 12:11 PM)Winter Wrote: I'll say this in regards to this post and to RDB just above it.


We talk about these expiring years as if there is no risk "just for a year." I would argue that the Mavericks are on the clock. Putting Luca with someone like Westbrook or Irving seems an unnecessary addition unless you truly believe a championship is imminent in 2023.

1. The Mavs are a good team but a talent upgrade is needed to reach the next level.
   
2. Acquiring that talent has challenges (I.e. cap space and desirable bargaining chips)
   
3. Due to these challenges, most of our opportunities will likely come with warts attached.
   

1. We have little to go on as far as the skill sets needed to best compliment both Luka and the acquired talent.  KP was the closest to a star that we have put beside Luka and their chemistry never clicked.  Was it because KP sucked or there were personality conflicts?  I don’t know.  Maybe it was just a miss match of skill sets needed to maximize both players talents.  I do know that we see stars join forces all the time and it’s amazing how often they never gel.
   
2. Since Luka has been a Mav, he has run the show and everyone with the exception of KP has had to adjust their games (and rightfully so).  JB was developed in house but even when he started reaching a level of stardom, it still often looked like “it’s your turn” b-ball at times.
   
3. If and when they bring in another star from outside the organization, that player will likely expect a certain level of attention from his new team.
   

1. Kyrie is a legitimate superstar.
   
2. Kyrie has warts but they are mostly between the ears…his talent is NBA top level.
   
3. Kyrie may be looking for his last big payday very soon.  I believe the likelihood he behaves is high…he’s not going to screw up his money.  I’m sure he wants to thrive.
   
4. To acquire someone with Kyrie’s talents at nickels on the dollar is fairly rare.  Harden had some similar warts but it didn’t seem to have a big effect on asking price.
   
5. There seems to be few suitors, so the price MIGHT be fairly reasonable.
   
6. To go out and sign another star, our cap and chip situations means we will likely have to take on someone who is underperforming their contract.  To take our acquisition limitations and try to cherry-pick the right deal from limited options available today and hope they gel with Luka, while possibly worsening our future cap situation, makes me nervous.
   
7. Kyrie gives you an opportunity to test drive a superstar with a different skill set.  It’s one more data point as we seek to identify & maximize talent around Luka.
   
8. Irving is a one year deal and I assume (again not a cap guy), would provide more flexibility and potentially remove some of the acquiring limitations we have this year.
   
9. Acquiring Kyrie is not writing off this year.  Assuming he behaves, we don’t have the chips to acquire anyone close to his level of talent.  This is why I would not do Westbrook.  I think he is done, would not really improve the team, and would be unlikely to provide any useful insights into Luka or team needs.
   

(07-05-2022, 02:16 PM)F Gump Wrote: Not that it's possible, of course, but if it could be just Bertans-Powell, I'd be tempted. But I still might say no on RW.

I really think Bertans will offer better contributions this season, because you have a specific role to use Big Man Shooting 3s. Whereas, I'm not sure how you use RW and get something helpful. And I think when you're elite, you fill out your roster to maximize your chances this season, save a really good young addition that you know just needs some time. There aren't a lot of minutes to waste when prepping to play for higher stakes.

(07-05-2022, 03:07 PM)RDB Wrote: Allow me to retort…sorry but this will be a little long ?.

Let’s start with a baseline I THINK most can agree with:

1. The Mavs are a good team but a talent upgrade is needed to reach the next level.
   
2. Acquiring that talent has challenges (I.e. cap space and desirable bargaining chips)
   
3. Due to these challenges, most of our opportunities will likely come with warts attached.
   

My other beliefs that influence my thinking (others may agree or disagree):

1. We have little to go on as far as the skill sets needed to best compliment both Luka and the acquired talent.  KP was the closest to a star that we have put beside Luka and their chemistry never clicked.  Was it because KP sucked or there were personality conflicts?  I don’t know.  Maybe it was just a miss match of skill sets needed to maximize both players talents.  I do know that we see stars join forces all the time and it’s amazing how often they never gel.
   
2. Since Luka has been a Mav, he has run the show and everyone with the exception of KP has had to adjust their games (and rightfully so).  JB was developed in house but even when he started reaching a level of stardom, it still often looked like “it’s your turn” b-ball at times.
   
3. If and when they bring in another star from outside the organization, that player will likely expect a certain level of attention from his new team.
   

My case for Kyrie at the right price:
  (Let me preface this by saying I know nothing about the salary cap…my case is purely 
  theoretical.  If others come back and say some of my rational’s don’t work for cap 
  reasons, just understand that I have little knowledge there and have not considered that in  
  my rational).

  This also assumes that reports of his low price are true.  I’m busy and don’t keep up but
  based on what I see here, I assume this is the case right now.

1. Kyrie is a legitimate superstar.
   
2. Kyrie has warts but they are mostly between the ears…his talent is NBA top level.
   
3. Kyrie may be looking for his last big payday very soon.  I believe the likelihood he behaves is high…he’s not going to screw up his money.  I’m sure he wants to thrive.
   
4. To acquire someone with Kyrie’s talents at nickels on the dollar is fairly rare.  Harden had some similar warts but it didn’t seem to have a big effect on asking price.
   
5. There seems to be few suitors, so the price MIGHT be fairly reasonable.
   
6. To go out and sign another star, our cap and chip situations means we will likely have to take on someone who is underperforming their contract.  To take our acquisition limitations and try to cherry-pick the right deal from limited options available today and hope they gel with Luka, while possibly worsening our future cap situation, makes me nervous.
   
7. Kyrie gives you an opportunity to test drive a superstar with a different skill set.  It’s one more data point as we seek to identify & maximize talent around Luka.
   
8. Irving is a one year deal and I assume (again not a cap guy), would provide more flexibility and potentially remove some of the acquiring limitations we have this year.
   
9. Acquiring Kyrie is not writing off this year.  Assuming he behaves, we don’t have the chips to acquire anyone close to his level of talent.  This is why I would not do Westbrook.  I think he is done, would not really improve the team, and would be unlikely to provide any useful insights into Luka or team needs.
   

If I have to take warts, IMO Kyrie has the right kinds of warts at the right time based on what is out there.  I’m nervous about rolling the dice on a less talented star on a ridiculous contract and hoping for the best.  

Most of the trade ideas we see on these boards are trying to come up with anything to make the best out of a bad situation.  Why is it unreasonable to make the best out of a situation and eliminate the bad from the equation?  If Kyrie could reasonably be had for combinations of Timmy, DB, Maxie, Powell, or Green, which remove what I consider to be average players taking up valuable space, while improving your team this year, providing valuable insights for future moves with minimal obligations, and opening up dollars and flexibility for next year, why would you not consider that?

(07-05-2022, 03:17 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: I agree with your reasoning on Kyrie as far as true superstar and if hes cheap...

I question whether him and Luka would gel.   I think Luka would defer at first...but I think both guys want the ball and it would lead to frustration.

(07-05-2022, 03:07 PM)RDB Wrote: If I have to take warts, IMO Kyrie has the right kinds of warts at the right time based on what is out there.  I’m nervous about rolling the dice on a less talented star on a ridiculous contract and hoping for the best.  

Most of the trade ideas we see on these boards are trying to come up with anything to make the best out of a bad situation.  Why is it unreasonable to make the best out of a situation and eliminate the bad from the equation?  If Kyrie could reasonably be had for combinations of Timmy, DB, Maxie, Powell, or Green, which remove what I consider to be average players taking up valuable space, while improving your team this year, providing valuable insights for future moves with minimal obligations, and opening up dollars and flexibility for next year, why would you not consider that?

(07-05-2022, 03:07 PM)RDB Wrote: Allow me to retort…sorry but this will be a little long.

Let’s start with a baseline I THINK most can agree with:

1. The Mavs are a good team but a talent upgrade is needed to reach the next level.
   
2. Acquiring that talent has challenges (I.e. cap space and desirable bargaining chips)
   
3. Due to these challenges, most of our opportunities will likely come with warts attached.
   

My other beliefs that influence my thinking (others may agree or disagree):

1. We have little to go on as far as the skill sets needed to best compliment both Luka and the acquired talent.  KP was the closest to a star that we have put beside Luka and their chemistry never clicked.  Was it because KP sucked or there were personality conflicts?  I don’t know.  Maybe it was just a miss match of skill sets needed to maximize both players talents.  I do know that we see stars join forces all the time and it’s amazing how often they never gel.
   
2. Since Luka has been a Mav, he has run the show and everyone with the exception of KP has had to adjust their games (and rightfully so).  JB was developed in house but even when he started reaching a level of stardom, it still often looked like “it’s your turn” b-ball at times.
   
3. If and when they bring in another star from outside the organization, that player will likely expect a certain level of attention from his new team.
   

My case for Kyrie at the right price:
  (Let me preface this by saying I know nothing about the salary cap…my case is purely 
  theoretical.  If others come back and say some of my rational’s don’t work for cap 
  reasons, just understand that I have little knowledge there and have not considered that in  
  my rational).

  This also assumes that reports of his low price are true.  I’m busy and don’t keep up but
  based on what I see here, I assume this is the case right now.

1. Kyrie is a legitimate superstar.
   
2. Kyrie has warts but they are mostly between the ears…his talent is NBA top level.
   
3. Kyrie may be looking for his last big payday very soon.  I believe the likelihood he behaves is high…he’s not going to screw up his money.  I’m sure he wants to thrive.
   
4. To acquire someone with Kyrie’s talents at nickels on the dollar is fairly rare.  Harden had some similar warts but it didn’t seem to have a big effect on asking price.
   
5. There seems to be few suitors, so the price MIGHT be fairly reasonable.
   
6. To go out and sign another star, our cap and chip situations means we will likely have to take on someone who is underperforming their contract.  To take our acquisition limitations and try to cherry-pick the right deal from limited options available today and hope they gel with Luka, while possibly worsening our future cap situation, makes me nervous.
   
7. Kyrie gives you an opportunity to test drive a superstar with a different skill set.  It’s one more data point as we seek to identify & maximize talent around Luka.
   
8. Irving is a one year deal and I assume (again not a cap guy), would provide more flexibility and potentially remove some of the acquiring limitations we have this year.
   
9. Acquiring Kyrie is not writing off this year.  Assuming he behaves, we don’t have the chips to acquire anyone close to his level of talent.  This is why I would not do Westbrook.  I think he is done, would not really improve the team, and would be unlikely to provide any useful insights into Luka or team needs.
   

If I have to take warts, IMO Kyrie has the right kinds of warts at the right time based on what is out there.  I’m nervous about rolling the dice on a less talented star on a ridiculous contract and hoping for the best.  

Most of the trade ideas we see on these boards are trying to come up with anything to make the best out of a bad situation.  Why is it unreasonable to make the best out of a situation and eliminate the bad from the equation?  If Kyrie could reasonably be had for combinations of Timmy, DB, Maxie, Powell, or Green, which remove what I consider to be average players taking up valuable space, while improving your team this year, providing valuable insights for future moves with minimal obligations, and opening up dollars and flexibility for next year, why would you not consider that?

(07-05-2022, 03:07 PM)RDB Wrote: Allow me to retort…sorry but this will be a little long.

Let’s start with a baseline I THINK most can agree with:

1. The Mavs are a good team but a talent upgrade is needed to reach the next level.
   
2. Acquiring that talent has challenges (I.e. cap space and desirable bargaining chips)
   
3. Due to these challenges, most of our opportunities will likely come with warts attached.
   

My other beliefs that influence my thinking (others may agree or disagree):

1. We have little to go on as far as the skill sets needed to best compliment both Luka and the acquired talent.  KP was the closest to a star that we have put beside Luka and their chemistry never clicked.  Was it because KP sucked or there were personality conflicts?  I don’t know.  Maybe it was just a miss match of skill sets needed to maximize both players talents.  I do know that we see stars join forces all the time and it’s amazing how often they never gel.
   
2. Since Luka has been a Mav, he has run the show and everyone with the exception of KP has had to adjust their games (and rightfully so).  JB was developed in house but even when he started reaching a level of stardom, it still often looked like “it’s your turn” b-ball at times.
   
3. If and when they bring in another star from outside the organization, that player will likely expect a certain level of attention from his new team.
   

My case for Kyrie at the right price:
  (Let me preface this by saying I know nothing about the salary cap…my case is purely 
  theoretical.  If others come back and say some of my rational’s don’t work for cap 
  reasons, just understand that I have little knowledge there and have not considered that in  
  my rational).

  This also assumes that reports of his low price are true.  I’m busy and don’t keep up but
  based on what I see here, I assume this is the case right now.

1. Kyrie is a legitimate superstar.
   
2. Kyrie has warts but they are mostly between the ears…his talent is NBA top level.
   
3. Kyrie may be looking for his last big payday very soon.  I believe the likelihood he behaves is high…he’s not going to screw up his money.  I’m sure he wants to thrive.
   
4. To acquire someone with Kyrie’s talents at nickels on the dollar is fairly rare.  Harden had some similar warts but it didn’t seem to have a big effect on asking price.
   
5. There seems to be few suitors, so the price MIGHT be fairly reasonable.
   
6. To go out and sign another star, our cap and chip situations means we will likely have to take on someone who is underperforming their contract.  To take our acquisition limitations and try to cherry-pick the right deal from limited options available today and hope they gel with Luka, while possibly worsening our future cap situation, makes me nervous.
   
7. Kyrie gives you an opportunity to test drive a superstar with a different skill set.  It’s one more data point as we seek to identify & maximize talent around Luka.
   
8. Irving is a one year deal and I assume (again not a cap guy), would provide more flexibility and potentially remove some of the acquiring limitations we have this year.
   
9. Acquiring Kyrie is not writing off this year.  Assuming he behaves, we don’t have the chips to acquire anyone close to his level of talent.  This is why I would not do Westbrook.  I think he is done, would not really improve the team, and would be unlikely to provide any useful insights into Luka or team needs.
   

If I have to take warts, IMO Kyrie has the right kinds of warts at the right time based on what is out there.  I’m nervous about rolling the dice on a less talented star on a ridiculous contract and hoping for the best.  

Most of the trade ideas we see on these boards are trying to come up with anything to make the best out of a bad situation.  Why is it unreasonable to make the best out of a situation and eliminate the bad from the equation?  If Kyrie could reasonably be had for combinations of Timmy, DB, Maxie, Powell, or Green, which remove what I consider to be average players taking up valuable space, while improving your team this year, providing valuable insights for future moves with minimal obligations, and opening up dollars and flexibility for next year, why would you not consider that?

(07-05-2022, 03:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: A few comments:

Acquiring the talent needed to put us into contention will very likely be a trade instead of cap space. 

Don’t disagree…I’m talking about this year and I don’t think we have the talent needed to acquire a star.

The talent we acquire does not have to have warts.  Jrue Holiday and Dejounte Murray had no warts.

It likely will this year unless I’m missing something.

We have a very good idea of what the perfect match is for Luka.  Offensively it needs to be somebody who can stretch the floor and can be a secondary creator/playmaker but does not need the ball in their hands.  That player also needs to be a plus perimeter defender.  KP did not fit because he was unwilling to run P&R and P&P with Luka, and wanted to do inefficient post stuff.

I’ll take 3 of those.  Where do I sign up?  Can I interest you in DB?

Given our FO constant bungling since the Luka draft, we have very little in assets other than future draft picks.  That means we likely have one shot to make a big trade to put us in true contention.  We already tried that trade prematurely for a guy with warts (KP) and paid the price.  We can't afford to make that mistake again.  I would argue we do not want to go after a guy with warts.

Not sure how acquiring Kyrie impacts that if you are referring to next year.

If we are talking about something like Timmy plus Powell then you probably pull the trigger on that, but it is highly unlikely that gets it done.  I'm not interested in gutting the team for a one year rental who may not even show up.

Something like what you suggest is exactly what I am talking about… maybe it won’t get done…never know until you try.  If you go back to my first post, my point from the beginning was that many on this board wouldn’t consider Kyrie period.  I am simply stating that I believe that is narrow minded and short sighted.

I am also not interested in gutting the team.  I thought I was clear on that…apologies if I wasn’t.  I will also add that the thought of Kyrie not showing up in a contract year is extremely unlikely.

(07-05-2022, 03:45 PM)F Gump Wrote:  I agree with a lot of what you say.
1 I agree that Kyrie at his best is an excellent player (at least on offense) and would help the Mavs a lot.
2 I agree that at the right price, he could be worth getting.

However, I don't fully agree with
1 what you would be willing to give up (I would not offer any longer-term piece, ie Maxi or Green, for a player who is a one-year rental, where that 1 year of play is also uncertain)
... The deals I would consider would be 2 or 3 of THJ-Bertans-Powell (one such combo needs to be made a part of Brunson SNT to be legal)

I understand your position here based on how you value the players.  Admittedly, I am probably a little less “we love our boys” than most.  I like Maxi but am not married to an above average defender who has no game inside the 3 point line and needs 3’ of space to shoot or he becomes a speed bump in ball rotation.  I just think his skills are easily replaceable with reasonable dollars. (Wow that sounds harsh).  I will agree that I am on the fence with Green.  I still hold out hope that we will see significant improvement where Maxi at this point is what he is.

2 the idea that Kyrie is sure to give you something positive
... I would hope for that, since he's good when he plays, but he's not reliable

Sure is probably a little strong.  It’s just my opinion and very well could be wrong.  I just don’t think he is stupid and if he pulled what he did last year again, his career will effectively be done.  His trade value so far should be a massive wake up call.

3 the thought that BKN would necessarily do such a deal, even though they really want to move him ... and the Mavs either, even at that price ... because he's way less PC and more unreliable than Cuban is typically willing to accept

You may be right on the BKN position.  I guess it comes down to how bad they want to get rid of him and what they can get.  Beggars can’t be choosers.  As far as the PC stuff, I don’t have an opinion as I haven’t kept up with all that.  

My analysis of the value of doing such a deal, say for THJ-Powell, is that Kyrie would hopefully be better this year than THJ would have been, and in the future you are able to replace THJ with someone even more Kidd-suitable by using the big MLE in 2023 (which you qualify for by having moved THJ-Powell).

(07-05-2022, 05:10 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: So I was thinking about Ben Simmons.   I have no idea if the Nets would or want to trade him and I have no idea if he is still an NBA player.

When thinking about trades, I tend to offer too much because most trades you need to feel some pain to get the guy you want.

So here goes, would you trade Dinwiddie or Hardaway, Powell and two future first round picks and salary for Simmons?    

I included the two first round picks because teams are throwing them in like candy in trades and Dallas always attaches picks.   I could see New Jersey preferring Hardaway or Dinwiddie depending on what they get for KD.   I could also see the Mavs preferring to keep either Hardaway or Din depending on the day.  

That would leave Dallas with a huge team.  Starting lineup of Luka, DFS, Bullock, Simmons and Wood.  With either Din/Hardaway as the 6th man and Maxi and McGee as your 7th and 8th men.   On paper that team looks good.   

Although Simmons may already be quasi retired......

(07-05-2022, 05:10 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: would you trade Dinwiddie or Hardaway, Powell and two future first round picks and salary for Simmons?

(07-05-2022, 05:10 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: So I was thinking about Ben Simmons.   I have no idea if the Nets would or want to trade him and I have no idea if he is still an NBA player.

When thinking about trades, I tend to offer too much because most trades you need to feel some pain to get the guy you want.

So here goes, would you trade Dinwiddie or Hardaway, Powell and two future first round picks and salary for Simmons?    

I included the two first round picks because teams are throwing them in like candy in trades and Dallas always attaches picks.   I could see New Jersey preferring Hardaway or Dinwiddie depending on what they get for KD.   I could also see the Mavs preferring to keep either Hardaway or Din depending on the day.  

That would leave Dallas with a huge team.  Starting lineup of Luka, DFS, Bullock, Simmons and Wood.  With either Din/Hardaway as the 6th man and Maxi and McGee as your 7th and 8th men.   On paper that team looks good.   

Although Simmons may already be quasi retired......