(01-01-2023, 01:12 PM)HAguiar95 Wrote: IMO, I'd be inclined to find a compliment to Wood. If we remove Wood, we're still getting murdered on the boards

(01-01-2023, 01:17 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: You’ve certainly harped on this concept a lot this year but I’m pretty inclined to disagree with this opinion and most of my reasoning you already laid out. I think DFS has proven that he is great to play the 4, I’ve never really felt he ever has size issues and I think he’s much better suited there than at the 3. The teams that are going after the vanderbilts and ruis of the league are the same ones who would be going after DFS for all the same reasons so I’m surprised this board is stuck on needing this skill set that already seems to exist on this roster via one of our few high level role players.

I think a lot of this is due to how you view Hardaway and are such a staunch defender of him. He’s a decent player and I try not to be too hard on him but the idea that his role isn’t the obviously role that needs upgrading is odd to me. Were talking about potentially moving DFS to the 3 where Hardaway is and the biggest problem there is that whoever we put into this role with our current roster (Hardaway/Bullock/DFS) is going to be a player that can’t play make or create their own shot to save their life. To me when I watch that it’s clear that we’re really just a two way wing away from being taken seriously (assuming we can keep Wood around) and that two way wing can be smaller or bigger than DFS in my opinion, but it can’t be another one dimensional player like Vanderbilt.

I don’t want to be thrown into your “group think” opinion on Hardaway and come off as I’m bashing him but if you don’t think we can clearly upgrade that spot and be a MUCH better team than I feel you’ve gone way too far in the other direction.

Agreed on the Green points, I really want him to be a two way player we can place next to Luka for years.

Also agreed on the Poeltl thoughts and your general view on centers and their worth.

(01-01-2023, 01:27 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I can envision him being the PERFECT offensive complement for Luka at center. Not good, perfect.

(01-01-2023, 01:55 PM)Jason Terry Wrote: Luka

DFS and Maxi can play with any team we build. So versatile 

Green and Hardy. Keep the pups 

Dinwiddie and Wood. The vital pieces to assist Luka. They fit well with him. We can’t afford to replace them so the smart move is keep them

Those 7 are who we should build around. The rest of the guys should be available in a swap 

THJ and Bullock could have some value and we should extract that. I’ve seen enough from Green to be cool with moving on from both contracts

(01-01-2023, 01:27 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I might be wrong about all of this, but I think there's something I see coming that might impact opinions for those on both sides of this ongoing Wood debate.

I can envision him being the PERFECT offensive complement for Luka at center. Not good, perfect.

I can envision him being well above average, defensively, at center as he learns and as the league shifts even further into the "skill era." His foots peed, length and athletic ability are all perfect for that position (not ideal for forward, imo) and will take him as far as developing basketball IQ and motor will allow him to go. If you're optimistic about his IQ and motor, you might be ready to commit immediately. If you're not optimistic about those things, or if there's a specific type of center (big, bruising type) you think is necessary, you might still be extremely skeptical about his fit. Because his IQ and motor are even issues, conversationally, there is room for "in-between" thinking here, too. 

Let's say the most optimistic eventuality plays out:

1) He's going to be a great pnr partner with Luka for YEARS, and in loads of useful ways that help the entire team. 

2) He's going to be one of the few centers in the league who can create offense by posting up or (even more rare) FACING UP. 

3) Not only will he not be a defensive liability, he will be uncommonly suited to be a strength of your team on that end, particularly against playoff teams with sophisticated offenses. 

BUT...

Though he's a good rebounder for his player type, and for my money a significant improvement over the group of bigs the Mavs had available in the playoffs last season, I feel that when the dust clears, even in the most optimistic version of how things can go, rebounding will still be an area of perceived "weakness" for the Mavs, and will be an annoying part of their profile as a team at times. 

Now, something is always going to be an issue. You're never going to get the perfect roster, balanced in every possible way so that you can go 82-0 and win 6 straight championships. That's just not realistic. Personally, I am FINE with rebounding being that issue. It's enough for me to know that Wood is at least better than average on that end, and that some improvement over last year's rebounding would be possible with him. I'm ok with the idea that it still wouldn't be an area of real strength for the Mavs because, frankly, I don't think it matters as much as #'s 1, 2 and 3 above. But, I know not everyone feels that way.

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I'm not sure I fully follow your argument...at least where you disagree with me. I'm not sure I'm saying what you think I'm saying. My post had literally nothing to do with Hardaway, if that helps. 

I think it's likely DFS is better at the 4 than he is at the 3 and said as much, I believe.

(01-01-2023, 02:05 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: I typically agree with this sentiment but would also include Dinwiddie to the list of areas to improve, at least long term.

The Hardaway/Bullock/Dinwiddie trio can hopefully become the Green/Hardy/Player X trio by the end of Lukas contract and hopefully you can get player x with the former trio and keep Maxi/Wood/DFS.

(01-01-2023, 02:23 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: You want to have DFS and Maxi as high level contributors at the end of Luka’s contract? I don’t think I can go there with you. They’ll be 33 and 34 at that point. Heck, Wood will be 31 then too.

(01-01-2023, 01:46 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: The point I was trying to make is that I don’t understand why we continue to kick names around like Vanderbilt and Rui when we already have that skill set kind of locked down. You had mentioned many times your desire to get a wing bigger than DFS but smaller than Maxi or whoever is at center and I just don’t see that need. I guess generally it feels to me like we’re essentially trying to upgrade DFS which seems odd to me given how proven he’s been while we aren’t kicking around names to upgrade the 3.

(01-01-2023, 02:23 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: You want to have DFS and Maxi as high level contributors at the end of Luka’s contract? I don’t think I can go there with you. They’ll be 33 and 34 at that point. Heck, Wood will be 31 then too.

(01-01-2023, 01:37 PM)omahen Wrote: I was just gathering my thoughts to basically say the very same thing. Looking at centers, the perfect partner for Luka would be:
- offense: can hit a three, PnR, pass and abuse smaller defenders when switched on him
- defense: can switch, have a bit bigger body to fight some of the bigger ones who have the team to get far in the playoffs (Jokic, Embiid)
- other: not injury prone, high BB IQ, good teammate

I don't think there is any center in the league that would fit the description of the ideal center next to Luka. A.Davis might be closest, but he is always injured. Turner could be considered, but who knows how much his stats this season are a consequence of his expiring contract. Perhaps LeBron would be the ideal solution at this stage of his career. 

I think Wood ticks plenty of boxes above as long as "good teammate" is not an issue.

(01-01-2023, 02:23 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: You want to have DFS and Maxi as high level contributors at the end of Luka’s contract? I don’t think I can go there with you. They’ll be 33 and 34 at that point. Heck, Wood will be 31 then too.

(01-01-2023, 01:02 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: The hole is at the 4, imo, especially now that Kleber is down. 

If they can add a player at that position who makes Kleber's minutes next year come more from the 5 than the 4, I think that's a good thing. It gives the team more options and greater flexibility. And, I think Kleber is more special at the 5, personally. At this point in time, most 4's can floor the ball, bring the ball up, threaten to score while facing up, etc. There's some of that starting to happen at the 5, too, but it's still rare, and Kleber can defend that type of center. He still offers a ton of value at the 5 just by pulling the biggest opposing player out of the paint (this is getting less rare, but it's still valuable). If he's playing the 5, you're probably running a lineup in which there are no easy marks to isolate with ball screens. 

Adding that 4 I'm envisioning (think Vanderbilt, for discussion sake) comes with the risk that DFS won't be as good as he has been these past few seasons, playing more 3 than 4. There are certainly benefits to this change relative to defensive size and rebounding, but there is also risk there in the areas of offensive skill, defensive matchups, etc. I'm not sure I can predict how that would go for DFS. HOWEVER, if the new player is someone like Vanderbilt, AND we know they have Green ready for a bigger role, I'm less inclined to worry about that. If DFS can't hang at the 3, then move him to the bench (where he could backfill both positions at a luxurious level) or even trade him (if that luxurious level is too expensive for Cuban's taste). I don't say either thing lightly. There is only a specific, narrow range of players who'd make me feel good about potentially displacing DFS.

(01-01-2023, 02:54 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: The list of players you gave is obviously on a giant spectrum in terms of impact (which you noted in the Lebron vs Rui example) so I guess with that in mind my stance would be this, we should go after two way wings no matter how they fit into the roster from a size perspective. If that player is someone like Siakim who would move DFS to the 3 then I’d be all for that experiment because of Siakims talent level on both sides of the court but guys like Vanderbilt don’t move the needle for me enough to experiment with DFS at the 3 because I don’t think he brings enough on offense for us to use our limited assets to go get him. Basically it would feel like we’re just shuffling in a new player that is a good role player but not a two way difference maker which is basically the current issue we already have.

(01-01-2023, 02:59 PM)mvossman Wrote: Are we sure putting Vanderbilt next to Wood is that great of a fit?  You talk about Maxi at the 5 so we can pull the opposing center out of the paint and have mentioned the same about Wood at the 5, but Vanderbilt takes one three a game and has no midrange.  Right now he is not somebody that will pull guys out of the paint.  Unless he is on the verge of breaking out, I don't think he is worth both a first and displacing Dorian from his best position.

(01-01-2023, 02:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I agree with this. 

I think the other element I'm bringing (that you might think is hogwash) is that because there isn't any prototypical 4 on the roster, even a player who doesn't meet the highest criteria for "two-way" might be helpful, and that is part of why I think addressing that hole might be the ideal move right now - because it seems possible. 

Vanderbilt, for example, is NOT a good offensive player (yet, he's trending in a useful direction) but I'm pretty convinced he'd make the team better. I can't say the same for any of the smaller targets we've mentioned (Thybulle, for example) or any of the huge, 3rd center types, either. Those guys would have to be really, really skilled to move the needle here, imho.

(01-01-2023, 03:11 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: This all makes sense and there’s definitely a chance I’m underestimating the value that a prototypical 4 would bring but I also believe that the league is moving to less prototypical anything from a position standpoint and I never felt like our run last year was hindered by our lack of a traditional power forward so that’s how I get to where I’m at I think.

(01-01-2023, 03:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Seems like we're getting closer to eye-to-eye so I don't want to argue needlessly, but I want to clarify the above. 

When I use "prototypical" is this conversation, I mean in the new way, as in as far from "traditional" as possible, almost. Yes, the league has been moving (and frankly, I'd say "has moved"...past tense) away from the old prototypes. But, I think the "positionless basketball" mentality was only a bridge to get from the last era to this one, wherein I actually think there are pretty clear, established norms right in front of us. 

DFS is way, WAY more prototypical at the 4 (now), imo, than someone I'd call "traditional"...like Dirk, for example. You might not have been suggesting anything to the contrary, I just want to make sure my take was clear.

(01-01-2023, 02:05 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: I typically agree with this sentiment but would also include Dinwiddie to the list of areas to improve, at least long term.

The Hardaway/Bullock/Dinwiddie trio can hopefully become the Green/Hardy/Player X trio by the end of Lukas contract and hopefully you can get player x with the former trio and keep Maxi/Wood/DFS.