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+--- Thread: ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal? (/showthread.php?tid=2173)
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RE: ROSTER TALK: - Ghost of Podkolzin - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 04:07 PM)sefant Wrote: On the solo big (no Kleber) Wood dynamic:
Wood/Kleber net without Green was -3 if you look deeper into the Wood/Kleber dynamic. The trend was before Kleber got injured.
While Wood/Green net rating without Kleber is +17 & Wood/Frank net also +18 without Kleber.
Wood/Powell complete trash if you look at their net rating
Obviously the sample size wasn't as big as a solo big, because Wood played most of his minutes with Kleber.
Where do you get these stats? I geek out on this stuff, but don't know where to find it.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - omahen - 12-18-2022
So, if Maxis injury is more serious than 8 weeks (which is long already), how would you solve the situation? I guess it would take too big of a toll on emergency options like DFS and Luka. I am very affraid Mavs will do a panic trade for someone like Crowder, spending assets doing it.
Ideally I would look for an emergency solution on a 2-way contract. No idea who would be good enough to provide some minutes.
If there is nothing decent on 2-way, Mavs need a roster spot. Kemba probably proved he is the solution as 3rd ballhandler when Luka or SD will miss time, so not sure it would be wise cutting him. From on-court value perspective, dumping Pinson would make most sense. Next in line would be FN. My favorite reclamation pet project is DJ Wilson, I think he is available. What is Jabari Parker doing this days? He might provide some quality minutes for vet min.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Ghost of Podkolzin - 12-18-2022
IMO this is by far our best rotation as is. I'd like to see some minutes of Kemba at the point and Luka off the ball. If we can turn THJ and Bullock into a 2-way starting caliber player, I think you have something special.
10 Man Rotation (with my suggested rank at position)...
PG - Luka, Kemba, Dinwiddie
SG - Dinwiddie, Green, THJ, Luka
SF - DFS, Bullock, Luka, THJ
PF - Wood, Kleber. DFS
C - Powell, Wood, Kleber
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 02:34 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: I’ve said Wood ‘should’ continue to play with Maxi. You’ve said he ‘can’ probably play without him. Over three games the evidence of ‘can’ is starting to look good. But it appears to me it isn’t Wood just being better at what he was doing. It is Wood being allowed to do something different. It didn’t look very impactful in two to three minute stints as subs came in and out. But, these elongated runs without Maxi are showing me “can” may actually be true.
Totally.
And to be totally clear, my goal is not to prevent Wood and Kleber from playing together, it's to get Wood player center, exclusively. To me, Kleber is the guy who's actually versatile and can bounce back and forth from position to position.
And on offense, yeah, I really think Kleber's butt should be in the corner while Wood sets picks and runs actions with the ball-handlers. Frankly, I'm not sure there is a valid argument to the contrary, provided Wood actually knows the system well enough to do so.
Back to the "together or separate" issue, I do think it's important we get to a point where Kidd doesn't view the two as joined at the hip, but only because I think the day is coming when the best strategy for winning will take the team down a 5-out path for more than just a few minutes, here and there. Not against every team, and not exclusively, but if your only two center options for that style (one more than they had last year) have to play together, well, to me that's a huge waste. They can and should play some together, just like Kleber can and should play some with Powell. I'm just looking for options that best feature everyone's strengths.
I guess I would cap it off by saying that for me, it makes all the sense in the world that Wood looks better defensively now that he's low man. That's where all of his training/instincts have been developed. Now, he might just be having a great stretch and might make that thinking seem silly a week from now, but so far this is playing out logically, imho. He might not be a winning player when the dust clears, but I feel like he has NO chance to succeed chasing forwards around, playing weak side help D, etc. I think the athletic advantage he has at the 5 is his best and only chance to be an impactful defender. And not for nothing, but I think he has protected the paint pretty damn well since Kleber went down. So much so that I'm about willing to say he's the best at it on the team when he's engaged, aware and comfortable.
Combine all of that with his blatantly obvious offensive gifts (also compounded when matched with opposing bigs, and not forwards) and I think this approach has been begging to get a shot since the summer.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Mapka - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 04:23 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: 1. Do we have that player in hand already who makes this a contending lineup?
2. If not, does that player have to be someone who requires multiple first rounders
3. Or, is there a guy that is gettable for a more reasonable package?
4. Ideally, what position do they play?
1. Kemba, as long as he is able to play.
2. Probably.
3. TDL can be wild- you never know in the NBA.
4. PG, we also need someone to do what McGee was supposed to do.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 04:23 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: 1. Do we have that player in hand already who makes this a contending lineup?
2. If not, does that player have to be someone who requires multiple first rounders
3. Or, is there a guy that is gettable for a more reasonable package?
4. Ideally, what position do they play?
1. Contending? No idea. I think they could be very good with Hardaway in the position, provided the group gets enough experience together. Dinwiddie, too, would be a candidate I suppose, now that KW is in the mix (if we believe he can hold up). I think he's much worse than Hardaway on defense and in the mid-range, however. And obviously not as comfortable as a catch and shoot guy, despite the percentages to this point. Dinwiddie is obviously way better at getting to and scoring from the paint and his on-ball agency has me liking him more as an overqualified 6th man than a just barely qualified 2nd scorer with the starters.
2. Probably, yes. I think it needs to be an offensive player (two-way, but the offensive part can't be catch and shoot) and that costs.
3. Gettable for improvement? Sure. Contention? Idk...see #2 for my take.
4. Off guard, but able to guard point would be great. A true, modern 4 would also be great (Grant, Kuzma, Siakim body type) but I worry that DFS back at full-time 3 wouldn't be the boon we hope. Undersized 4 might actually be his best position. I'm not sure of that, but it has crossed my mind plenty.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - mvossman - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 04:49 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: IMO this is by far our best rotation as is. I'd like to see some minutes of Kemba at the point and Luka off the ball. If we can turn THJ and Bullock into a 2-way starting caliber player, I think you have something special.
10 Man Rotation (with my suggested rank at position)...
PG - Luka, Kemba, Dinwiddie
SG - Dinwiddie, Green, THJ, Luka
SF - DFS, Bullock, Luka, THJ
PF - Wood, Kleber. DFS
C - Powell, Wood, Kleber
We just watched Wood have his best couple of games as a single big, and his minutes with Powell have been terrible all season. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to start with those two on the court together.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - mvossman - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 04:23 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Yeah, I think you want to put players around Wood/Luka (if that ends up being a thing) who take some of the defensive pressure off of them. Which takes us back to the conversation with mvossman. Wood, DFS, Green, Luka and what?
1. Do we have that player in hand already who makes this a contending lineup?
2. If not, does that player have to be someone who requires multiple first rounders
3. Or, is there a guy that is gettable for a more reasonable package?
4. Ideally, what position do they play?
If Wood is even a middle of the pack starting center, it changes trade targets immensely. If he is just a really good backup center, then we are probably two players away.
1. No
2. Yes
3. No
4. Wing in the broadest sense. Somebody who can guard multiple positions at a high level. We already have the point of attack defender in Green so versatility is the most important. On offense that player needs to be able to stretch the floor when off ball and create (for themselves or others or preferably both) when on ball. That player will cost some picks.
I agree on Wood. Some of his improvement is probably due to being the single big for long stretches, but I don't think if he got put (or forced) into this position earlier this season it would have gone nearly this well.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 06:44 PM)mvossman Wrote: We already have the point of attack defender in Green so versatility is the most important. On offense that player needs to be able to stretch the floor when off ball and create (for themselves or others or preferably both) when on ball. That player will cost some picks.
Agree that Green is a good point of attack defender, but not that this means that position should be avoided. If the best player they can get is another Brunson-sized guy, I say do it. Green can guard 2s and 3s plenty well.
Agree with the rest.
I'd add that it would be a pretty big deal if the 5th player was actually a point guard good enough to justify forcing Luka to develop as an off-ball guy a little more.
Basically, every position but 5 is open for this mystery guest, in my mind, and even the 5 is open a little, unless they're ready to commit to Wood, financially.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - DanSchwartzgan - 12-18-2022
Gordon Hayward was back in the lineup on Friday. P J Washington sat out for personal reasons. I personally don't think Charlotte wants to pay Washington. They have younger guys coming up behind him that can handle things until they get their second star. Moving off of Hayward's $31.5mm next season is also seemingly a goal for Charlotte.
What about Powell/THJ for Washington/Hayward? It makes your nine man:
Wood, Washington, DFS, Green and Luka
Maxi, Hayward, Bullock and Dinwiddie
You surround Luka/Wood with three plus defenders. Hayward gives you the offensive creation THJ doesn't and has much more of a passing mentality. Pretty much any starter can be the fifth man in the bench unit. Any bench guy can play with the starters if you want to go smaller (removing Washington) or go with a more veteran closing lineup (removing Green). Deep bench is McGee, Bertans, Frank, Hardy, Walker and Pinson.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 07:09 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Gordon Hayward was back in the lineup on Friday. P J Washington sat out for personal reasons. I personally don't think Charlotte wants to pay Washington. They have younger guys coming up behind him that can handle things until they get their second star. Moving off of Hayward's $31.5mm next season is also seemingly a goal for Charlotte.
What about Powell/THJ for Washington/Hayward? It makes your nine man:
Wood, Washington, DFS, Green and Luka
Maxi, Hayward, Bullock and Dinwiddie
You surround Luka/Wood with three plus defenders. Hayward gives you the offensive creation THJ doesn't and has much more of a passing mentality. Pretty much any starter can be the fifth man in the bench unit. Any bench guy can play with the starters if you want to go smaller (removing Washington) or go with a more veteran closing lineup (removing Green). Deep bench is McGee, Bertans, Frank, Hardy, Walker and Pinson.
I would do this in a heartbeat but don’t think the Hornets would do that with Hardaways contract.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - mvossman - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 06:46 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Agree that Green is a good point of attack defender, but not that this means that position should be avoided. If the best player they can get is another Brunson-sized guy, I say do it. Green can guard 2s and 3s plenty well.
This is basically what I am saying. We don't have to focus on a point of attack guy, and with our switch heavy defense we want a guy that can guard multiple positions. That generally leaves out centers and small guards with a few exceptions (VanVleet would make a ton of sense on this team).
RE: ROSTER TALK: - ItsGoTime - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 07:09 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Gordon Hayward was back in the lineup on Friday. P J Washington sat out for personal reasons. I personally don't think Charlotte wants to pay Washington. They have younger guys coming up behind him that can handle things until they get their second star. Moving off of Hayward's $31.5mm next season is also seemingly a goal for Charlotte.We would most definitely need to add an asset to this package. I'd be happy with it if MJ would accept the 28 unprotected. That gives us 3 picks in the offseason to use with Hayward to get another piece or 2.
What about Powell/THJ for Washington/Hayward? It makes your nine man:
Wood, Washington, DFS, Green and Luka
Maxi, Hayward, Bullock and Dinwiddie
You surround Luka/Wood with three plus defenders. Hayward gives you the offensive creation THJ doesn't and has much more of a passing mentality. Pretty much any starter can be the fifth man in the bench unit. Any bench guy can play with the starters if you want to go smaller (removing Washington) or go with a more veteran closing lineup (removing Green). Deep bench is McGee, Bertans, Frank, Hardy, Walker and Pinson.
Only way I can see not using first round draft capital is to expand this trade by adding Bertans and Rozier. It works on Fanspo, might not IRL, not sure cause it saves CHA $10.6M this year. It also saves them roughly $23MM over the life of the various contracts and if they can get THJ going, he can be offloaded in a year or 2.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Scott41theMavs - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 07:46 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: We would most definitely need to add an asset to this package. I'd be happy with it if MJ would accept the 28 unprotected. That gives us 3 picks in the offseason to use with Hayward to get another piece or 2.
Only way I can see not using first round draft capital is to expand this trade by adding Bertans and Rozier. It works on Fanspo, might not IRL, not sure cause it saves CHA $10.6M this year. It also saves them roughly $23MM over the life of the various contracts and if they can get THJ going, he can be offloaded in a year or 2.
MJ might be the only GM left in the league left to fleece. Who knows why he does what he does or what might make sense to him?
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Chicagojk - 12-18-2022
Tim Cato had a comment saying he would be actually surprised if Kemba Walker is a part of our regular rotation at any time this season.
Obvious injury is a big concern and minutes are tough to come by with the current roster, but I was sort of bummed reading this. It was only one game but I feel this team is so stale that any addition (like more Josh Green) that increases the enjoyment/excitement, the better.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - omahen - 12-19-2022
(12-18-2022, 07:09 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Gordon Hayward was back in the lineup on Friday. P J Washington sat out for personal reasons. I personally don't think Charlotte wants to pay Washington. They have younger guys coming up behind him that can handle things until they get their second star. Moving off of Hayward's $31.5mm next season is also seemingly a goal for Charlotte.
What about Powell/THJ for Washington/Hayward? It makes your nine man:
From Dallas perspective I would do it. But from Charlotte perspective, I think you would need to offer either expiring salary (to save them money next season) or draft compensation, perhaps even both. Unfortunately, I don't see an expiring package that would make much sense from Dallas perspective (unless Wood is not here longterm).
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Mapka - 12-19-2022
(12-19-2022, 03:38 AM)omahen Wrote: From Dallas perspective I would do it. But from Charlotte perspective, I think you would need to offer either expiring salary (to save them money next season) or draft compensation, perhaps even both. Unfortunately, I don't see an expiring package that would make much sense from Dallas perspective (unless Wood is not here longterm).
This seems like a wild the grass is greener everywhere else + big panic trade.
Hayward is like the worst contract in the league and PJ is a third level player not worth giving up something until his new contract is settled.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - F Gump - 12-19-2022
(12-18-2022, 07:09 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Gordon Hayward was back in the lineup on Friday. P J Washington sat out for personal reasons. I personally don't think Charlotte wants to pay Washington. They have younger guys coming up behind him that can handle things until they get their second star. Moving off of Hayward's $31.5mm next season is also seemingly a goal for Charlotte.
What about Powell/THJ for Washington/Hayward?
On paper that makes sense. But some obstacles --
1 Hayward is always injured, and I am doubtful the Mavs would take the gamble on the big salary for a player who is as likely to be on the injured list as on the court (including playoffs).
2 PJ is a player that may be way more desirable in our minds than in reality. BR says he is a mediocre defender, and the numbers say he is a mediocre rebounder and not a stretch guy either. But he's very undersized to be your center (only 6-7).
3 The biggest obstacle might be Cuban and the money. That trade adds another $20M in tax/salary and I'm not convinced Cuban would be willing unless the incoming players were way more of an upgrade than they appear to be.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - F Gump - 12-19-2022
(12-18-2022, 07:46 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: We would most definitely need to add an asset to this package. I'd be happy with it if MJ would accept the 28 unprotected.
I'm thinking just the opposite - that CHA would have to add the pick to justify the financials - and I'm still not convinced that's enough for Cuban.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - omahen - 12-19-2022
(12-19-2022, 05:16 AM)F Gump Wrote: I'm thinking just the opposite - that CHA would have to add the pick to justify the financials - and I'm still not convinced that's enough for Cuban.
Sure, from Mavs perspective. But I think Charlotte has zero motivation to give up assets in this deal. They are not a FA destination and have big cap space as it is, even with Hayward on the roster. They can just let PJ walk, if they don't wan't to pay him. Why trade Hayward for THJ, whose contracts is a year longer.
On the other hand of course Mavs wouldn't look at those contracts as positive ones and I totally agree these two guys are not the difference makers that would lift Mavs high enough. That is why I think the deal between these two teams is unlikely.