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+--- Thread: ROSTER TALK: Mavs favs for Vogel if no HC job exists. Kyrie handshake deal? (/showthread.php?tid=2173)
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RE: ROSTER TALK: - Ghost of Podkolzin - 12-17-2022
Why trade away Wood or Din? They're our 2nd and 3rd best players. If you build a core around them, you see DFS is the ideal SF. This leaves just C to fill for a championship starting lineup.
PG - Luka
SG - Dinwiddie
SF - DFS
PF - Wood
C -
So what C fills this spot?
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Mapka - 12-17-2022
(12-17-2022, 01:31 AM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: Why trade away Wood or Din? They're our 2nd and 3rd best players. If you build a core around them, you see DFS is the ideal SF. This leaves just C to fill for a championship starting lineup.
PG - Luka
SG - Dinwiddie
SF - DFS
PF - Wood
C -
So what C fills this spot?
JOKIC.
So back to the drawing board.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - mvossman - 12-17-2022
(12-17-2022, 01:31 AM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: Why trade away Wood or Din? They're our 2nd and 3rd best players. If you build a core around them, you see DFS is the ideal SF. This leaves just C to fill for a championship starting lineup.
PG - Luka
SG - Dinwiddie
SF - DFS
PF - Wood
C -
So what C fills this spot?
I think you need a point of attack defender in that lineup. Dorian's defense improved significantly last season when he had a point of attack defender (Bullock) on the floor with him. I think Din makes more sense as the 6th man and you don't need his offense on the court when you have Luka and Wood (and possibly a third). By next season I think Green is going to make a lot of sense in that spot. I have also come fully around to the understanding that Wood is a center, especially in our switch heavy defense. He is not a great defensive center, but he is a worse defender at the 4 and he needs to be the 5 offensively. If he can become an average defender and we get a legit two way wing with Timmy and some picks next offseason this thing has contention potential.
Starters: Wood/Dorian/Two-way/Green/Luka
Bench: Powell/Maxi/Bullock/Frank/Din
RE: ROSTER TALK: - rocky164 - 12-17-2022
I think we need to start looking at a starting lineup of Wood/DFS/THJ/Green/Luka then let Dinwiddie run the second unit with Bullock, Powell and whoever’s healthy. Green right now should be the long term starter next to Luka. He can defend the point of attack and if he makes his 3’s is really an ideal SG with Luka. Also we need to start Wood at the 5 the rest of the season, or at least now until the trade deadline and see what we have. Luka/Wood pnr is VERY GOOD and entertaining to watch. Having Green in the starting lineup gives them a penetrator and still leaves DFS and THJ as spot up shooters. For what we have available now until the trade deadline, I think this lineup gives us the best opportunity to win and develop chemistry for a hopeful playoff run.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - DanSchwartzgan - 12-18-2022
(12-17-2022, 02:32 PM)mvossman Wrote: Starters: Wood/Dorian/Two-way/Green/Luka
Bench: Powell/Maxi/Bullock/Frank/Din
A couple of thoughts on this...and a question.
You've slotted the needed player as a wing. Since Dorian, Green and Luka can all play multiple positions, would you agree that the needed player could actually be anything from a 1 to a 4?
THJ is the player no longer in the mix here. In his 12 games as a starter, he's 16.8 points on .607 TS% and .430 from three. HOWEVER, the team is upside down on O-rating/D-rating at 112/115. He's not exactly a two-way player, so it seems to me if the replacement is fairly competent from the three that everything else is gravy. I'd contend given what you'll get from the other four players that I'd want a defender to join DFS and Green in making up for any deficiencies with Luka/Wood as long as they have something more than say Dorian at the offensive end. Obviously, if Jaylen Brown or Anunoby is filling this slot, you get the best of both worlds.
Which brings me to my question... Who is the worst player, at various positions, that you think is better than THJ, but is good enough to get this team past the first round of the playoffs?
Let's look at the 4/3 or 3/4 types. Players who are in the top 50% in 3% and D-EPM include who aren't all-stars include (minimum 500 minutes): Ingram, Grant Williams, J. Grant, P. Williams, Cam Johnson, Bridges, Tobias Harris, Caleb Martin, JJJ, Josh Hart, Brissett, Tari Eason, Royce O'Neal, Tucker and Batum Aldama and Jaden McDaniels. BTW, Maxi and THJ both meet this criteria. DFS, doesn't currently meet the criteria because of his 3%, but has historically made it easily. Crowder would probably be here too if he had played this season.
Players who are 1/2 or 2/1 types who meet the same criteria include: KCP, Bane, J. Carter, G. Allen, J. Goodwin, D. White, Nembhard, Konchar, Melton, Payne, Avarado, Joe Harris, Nesmith, D. Murray, D. Russell and Conley. BTW, Josh Green easily makes this criteria with super strong stats in both 3% and D-EPM.
Is there any non all-star who is better than THJ who is reasonably available that gets the job done?
Edit: After writing this and then responding to @Chicago, I realized I left P J Washington off the list. I think he brings a great deal of flexibility to the table as you can start him with Wood and DFS if you'd like. You can play him with Maxi or alone as a small ball center. Slight edit to your original version
Wood/Washington/DFS/Green/Luka
Powell/Maxi/THJ/Frank/Dinwiddie
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 12-18-2022
This won’t be popular, but while I’m in no way against the idea of turning Hardaway into a better player somehow, I actually don’t think he’s the superfluous piece here.
There’s been so much talk about putting nothing but good defenders next Luka, and I understand that logic, but this season’s start has taught me that the offense is really what’s broken now that Brunson is gone. I could see an argument for dumping THJ if we knew last night’s Walker was something they could get consistently, but I have a sneaking suspicion he’s only got about 10 of those games in him this year.
Further, the team played really, really good team defense for the majority of last night’s game, including the time Hardaway was on the floor. I’ll continue to swim upstream like the salmon of Capistrano and claim that the anti-Hardaway narrative is significantly based on group-think momentum at this point.
The guy I’d want to remove from the equation, especially if we want to impose a mandate of committing to heavy minutes for Green with SOME minutes for Ntilikina, is Bullock. He seams like the odd man out to me, even after last night, which I feel was his best game of the season by far.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - DanSchwartzgan - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 10:30 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: This won’t be popular, but while I’m in no way against the idea of turning Hardaway into a better player somehow, I actually don’t think he’s the superfluous piece here.
There’s been so much talk about putting nothing but good defenders next Luka, and I understand that logic, but this season’s start has taught me that the offense is really what’s broken now that Brunson is gone. I could see an argument for dumping THJ if we knew last night’s Walker was something they could get consistently, but I have a sneaking suspicion he’s only got about 10 of those games in him this year.
Further, the team played really, really good team defense for the majority of last night’s game, including the time Hardaway was on the floor. I’ll continue to swim upstream like the salmon of Capistrano and claim that the anti-Hardaway narrative is significantly based on group-think momentum at this point.
The guy I’d want to remove from the equation, especially if we want to impose a mandate of committing to heavy minutes for Green with SOME minutes for Ntilikina, is Bullock. He seams like the odd man out to me, even after last night, which I feel was his best game of the season by far.
I will agree that THJ is working his butt off right now. I wouldn't agree that there isn't fact behind the development of the THJ narrative.
I think Bullock is much easier to trade and much easier to replace given our current roster.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - KillerLeft - 12-18-2022
If I were coach, I’d want to see this rotation (healthy) for 20 games before making any big trades:
Powell (in the role he played last year and that McGee was supposed to play this year - short minutes to start and then on an as needed basis)
DFS
Green
THJ
Luka
Dinwiddie plays big minutes in rotation with Luka/THJ
Wood plays big minutes, ALL at the 5.
Kleber plays big minutes, some at the 4 and some at the 5, when Powell or Wood are in foul trouble, when one of them is really struggling, when they need to cut Powell out completely and play 40 minutes of 5-out, etc.
Bullock/Ntilikina COMPETE for the last spot in the rotation, soaking up the swing minutes not taken by THJ, Green and DFS.
That, to me, is a good attempt at a 9-man rotation that I haven’t seen Kidd try in earnest, and that shocks me because it would’ve been the FIRST approach that I tried.
If Wood plays well enough to force Kidd to try starting him, I’m totally fine with that, but really I just want to see him used in such a way that the team can benefit if/when he figures out how to play well consistently.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - omahen - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 09:39 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Which brings me to my question... Who is the worst player, at various positions, that you think is better than THJ, but is good enough to get this team past the first round of the playoffs?
I don't think there are many guys on your list that makes this team better enough. Mavs need top end talent imho. Ingram, Bridges, JJJ would perhaps do it, but none of them is available.
I also agree THJ is not necessarily the odd man out. My pick is to move SD to 6th man role. Bullock falls out of rotation (is traded?).
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Ghost of Podkolzin - 12-18-2022
Start Wood. Make Kemba 6th man. Din and Luka's ability to play 1-3 gives us lots of matchup options. This should be our starting lineup...
PG - Luka
SG - Dinwiddie
SF - DFS
PF - Wood
C - Powell
10 Man Rotation (with my suggested rank at position)...
PG - Luka, Kemba, Dinwiddie
SG - Dinwiddie, Green, THJ, Luka
SF - DFS, Bullock, Luka, THJ
PF - Wood, Kleber. DFS
C - Powell, Wood, Kleber
RE: ROSTER TALK: - BigDirk41 - 12-18-2022
Wood needs all his minutes at the 5 after seeing the last two games.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - StrandedOnBeauboisHill - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 11:50 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: Wood needs all his minutes at the 5 after seeing the last two games.
It looks like this may end up being the second year where injuries force Kidd into making rotation changes for the better. Last year Brunson didn’t get a chance at starting until Hardaway broke his foot and now this.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Ghost of Podkolzin - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 11:50 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: Wood needs all his minutes at the 5 after seeing the last two games.
Interesting, what are your reasons for that?
RE: ROSTER TALK: - BigDirk41 - 12-18-2022
He actually works hard as the lone big. He rebounds, plays defense and hustles. He is recovering when getting blown by to make blocks or good challenges. On offense he spreads the court. He has looked really good the last 2 games. I think the worry was he would get eaten alive on defense at the 5, but he held his own and then some.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - DanSchwartzgan - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 10:38 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: If I were coach, I’d want to see this rotation (healthy) for 20 games before making any big trades:
Powell
DFS
Green
THJ
Luka
Dinwiddie plays big minutes in rotation with Luka/THJ
Wood plays big minutes, ALL at the 5.
Kleber plays big minutes, some at the 4 and some at the 5, when Powell or Wood are in foul trouble, when one of them is really struggling, when they need to cut Powell out completely and play 40 minutes of 5-out, etc.
If Wood plays well enough to force Kidd to try starting him, I’m totally fine with that, but really I just want to see him used in such a way that the team can benefit if/when he figures out how to play well consistently.
Wood said something interesting the other night in his post game. He mentioned how Powell and Maxi “anchor” the D. I think the words had meaning. Wood has looked fantastic to me the last three games. The numbers back this up. His D-Rating has been unbelievable without Maxi. It was good with Maxi, but off the charts good in these last three games. For the season his D-Rating is 110.9 and this is the only season besides Detroit with Sweeney that his net rating has been positive. The last three games Wood’s D-Rating has been 91.5 (team was 99), 96.8 (team was 110) and 104.8 (team was 119). There is a difference between old Wood and recent Wood.
I think his defensive position has changed. At the very least, they’ve changed the way he’s playing the position. Possessions end with Wood under the bucket and with Wood getting many more defensive rebounds than when Maxi has played with him. With Maxi, Wood is on the perimeter more and having difficulty knowing where to be. I’d have to go back and watch some old game tape, but I think the change is moving Wood defensively to C. Yes, this is me saying you may have been right all along about this.
Offensively, Center on the Mav’s is the guy setting picks. I don’t know that I’ve spent enough time watching the difference between what Wood does and what Maxi does when both are in the game to know which one is actually the “center”. But Wood’s words say it was probably Maxi. The eye test probably says the same. I’ve said Wood ‘should’ continue to play with Maxi. You’ve said he ‘can’ probably play without him. Over three games the evidence of ‘can’ is starting to look good. But it appears to me it isn’t Wood just being better at what he was doing. It is Wood being allowed to do something different. It didn’t look very impactful in two to three minute stints as subs came in and out. But, these elongated runs without Maxi are showing me “can” may actually be true.
If this holds up, then it changes everything in terms of roster building. Wood the “center” off the bench means you probably want to improve Powell. Wood the starting “center” with Luka, DFS and Green (eventually) probably means you need to look in the realm of players where Anunoby and P J Washington reside. The odd thing is Sweeney has to know what Wood can and can’t do. So, what was the motivation for trying to force a square peg into a round hole?
RE: ROSTER TALK: - Kammrath - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 02:34 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Over three games the evidence of ‘can’ is starting to look good. But it appears to me it isn’t Wood just being better at what he was doing. It is Wood being allowed to do something different. It didn’t look very impactful in two to three minute stints as subs came in and out. But, these elongated runs without Maxi are showing me “can” may actually be true.
Because you don't know if he "can" unless you actually try. And that has been my great frustration with Kidd and Wood. Kidd has looked convinced that Wood "cannot" do "X" and it has been a self-fulfilling prophecy until injuries forced Kidd to do what he did not want to do.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - DanSchwartzgan - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 02:44 PM)Kammrath Wrote: Because you don't know if he "can" unless you actually try. And that has been my great frustration with Kidd and Wood. Kidd has looked convinced that Wood "cannot" do "X" and it has been a self-fulfilling prophecy until injuries forced Kidd to do what he did not want to do.
The next time Powell is healthy, we will have a good idea if Wood will be starting 5 or bench 5 (but exclusively a 5 w/o Maxi as Killer has said).
Then we can turn our attention to whether Kidd has been screwing the pooch this entire season or whether he’s managed this in such a way that Wood would have success when he ultimately moved into the spot you’ve envisioned all along. I suspect I know what you will say.
I don’t know the answer, nor do I know if the answer matters. But, I’ll offer two thoughts... 1. No one knows Wood better defensively than Sweeney. He proved last season that he’s not an idiot. 2. I went back and looked at Wood in the five games prior to the last week when Maxi missed time. The defensive results of those games look nothing like what we’ve seen the last three games.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - sefant - 12-18-2022
On the solo big (no Kleber) Wood dynamic:
Wood/Kleber net without Green was -3 if you look deeper into the Wood/Kleber dynamic. The trend was before Kleber got injured.
While Wood/Green net rating without Kleber is +17 & Wood/Frank net also +18 without Kleber.
Wood/Powell complete trash if you look at their net rating
Obviously the sample size wasn't as big as a solo big, because Wood played most of his minutes with Kleber.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - DanSchwartzgan - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 04:07 PM)sefant Wrote: On the solo big (no Kleber) Wood dynamic:
Wood/Kleber net without Green was -3 if you look deeper into the Wood/Kleber dynamic. The trend was before Kleber got injured.
While Wood/Green net rating without Kleber is +17 & Wood/Frank net also +18 without Kleber.
Wood/Powell complete trash if you look at their net rating
Yeah, I think you want to put players around Wood/Luka (if that ends up being a thing) who take some of the defensive pressure off of them. Which takes us back to the conversation with mvossman. Wood, DFS, Green, Luka and what?
1. Do we have that player in hand already who makes this a contending lineup?
2. If not, does that player have to be someone who requires multiple first rounders
3. Or, is there a guy that is gettable for a more reasonable package?
4. Ideally, what position do they play?
If Wood is even a middle of the pack starting center, it changes trade targets immensely. If he is just a really good backup center, then we are probably two players away.
RE: ROSTER TALK: - omahen - 12-18-2022
(12-18-2022, 04:23 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: 1. Do we have that player in hand already who makes this a contending lineup?
2. If not, does that player have to be someone who requires multiple first rounders
3. Or, is there a guy that is gettable for a more reasonable package?
4. Ideally, what position do they play?
Imho:
1. No. I also don't think Green is ready to be in the starting line-up of a contender. Might get there in a season or two, no assurances though.
2. Yes
3. No
4. Any wing, but preferably a big wing. Although Mavs also have problems defending point of attack if it comes from a guard. DFS likely guards bigger wings easier than guards (speaking about best player on opposing team). Green might be that option eventually.