MAVS NEWS: Luka Is Hurt, But is Trudging On | DLive's Mom Passes Away| Maxi OUT - Printable Version +- MavsBoard (https://www.mavsboard.com) +-- Forum: Boards (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Dallas Mavericks and the NBA (https://www.mavsboard.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=2) +--- Thread: MAVS NEWS: Luka Is Hurt, But is Trudging On | DLive's Mom Passes Away| Maxi OUT (/showthread.php?tid=2172) Pages:
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RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - mvossman - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 10:33 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I have learned over the past year that there's a huge discrepancy in this community about just how terms like "wing," and "positionless basketball" are used and understood. I believe these concepts are thought to make communication easier around here, but I've noticed that they're actually the cause of quite a bit of misunderstanding. To me the best description of a "wing" is a player that spends some time defending the 3 spot. So guys like Timmy and Frank (due to his length) are small wings, bullock and Green are wings and Dorian is a big wing (the only one on the roster that can guard 3/4). Maxi doesn't really guard 3s (although he probably could for spurts), so I consider him a big (especially since he played a lot of center last year). RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - Jommybone - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 10:33 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I think that term used to mean players whose positions were 2 or 3. I believe many people include the 4 in that blanket these days, too. This. In today’s NBA, it seems to mean the 3 guys who aren’t tasked with initiating the offense (point) or defending the rim (big). It gets used much like 3&D. Here, Point: Luka, Spencer, Jaden Big: Chris, Maxi, JaVale (& Davis?) Wing: Everybody else RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - mvossman - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 09:30 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I don't know that this is fair...it might be, but then again, there absolutely IS a set of financial parameters in place, and I'm not talking about only what the rules will/won't allow. I'm talking about a set of "what Cuban is willing to do" rules concerning spending. We don't know exactly what they are, and I'm sure they're contingent on opportunity value (in Cuban's judgement) to a certain extent, but it's clear these rules exist. The financial limitations should have been known at the TDL and before. If we are giving Nico credit for the KP trade, he has to take some of the hit for bungling Brunson (but I have never seen him mentioned in that capacity, its all FO or Cuban). With a team in desperate need of third point guard, I can't imagine any universe where Dorsey makes more sense than Dragic. It can't be the 2 mil in tax we have to pay (I don't think Cuban is that cheap). Maybe Dragic desperately did not want to come here, but that is not the vibe I am getting. I realize the offseason is not over, but I am losing faith this roster construction is going to make sense by the end, and honestly worried that they are going to do more harm than good if they make a significant move. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 10:43 AM)Jommybone Wrote: This. In today’s NBA, it seems to mean the 3 guys who aren’t tasked with initiating the offense (point) or defending the rim (big). It gets used much like 3&D. I agree that some people use the term this way. I agree that some lineups used by many teams qualify for this description. I'm not sure I agree that every lineup for every team can always be painted with this brush. It's not a mystery that we here need to unlock in order to move forward, I don't think, but I have noticed that different takes on this topic sometimes cause posters to talk right past each other for multiple pages. It's pretty interesting. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 10:45 AM)mvossman Wrote: The financial limitations should have been known at the TDL and before. I agree they should have been, and I agree that knowing the limitations, they should have found a deal for Brunson. I believe they made a calculated risk that Brunson couldn't drum up an offer that would make jumping ship worthwhile, and they got bitten right in the butt. I'm just saying it must be tough to be learning on the job right as the roster flexibility is running out. This observation isn't meant as an endorsement of Harrison, if that's how it's coming across. Just a thought that being the Mavs GM is probably pretty tough right about now. (07-07-2022, 10:45 AM)mvossman Wrote: I realize the offseason is not over, but I am losing faith this roster construction is going to make sense by the end, and honestly worried that they are going to do more harm than good if they make a significant move. I share this worry, my friend. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - Jommybone - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 10:47 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I'm not sure I agree that every lineup for every team can always be painted with this brush. I’m not sure who you’d be agreeing with if you did. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 10:52 AM)Jommybone Wrote: I’m not sure who you’d be agreeing with if you did. Well, this right here ^^^ is kind of my point. From my perspective, this is kind of what you mean with the following: (07-07-2022, 10:43 AM)Jommybone Wrote: In today’s NBA, it seems to mean the 3 guys who aren’t tasked with initiating the offense (point) or defending the rim (big). It gets used much like 3&D. Here, I think you've pinpointed the assumption. I think you've accurately laid out what people think the NBA types mean, I'm just not sure it's a correct assumption. See what I mean? It's making communication more difficult, even when we're just discussing how it makes communication more difficult. Lol. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - Jommybone - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 10:57 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Well, this right here ^^^ is kind of my point. From my perspective, this is kind of what you mean with the following: Funny. When I wrote “seems to,” I meant to express a lack of confidence and leave room for all kinds of exceptions. Don’t think we’re disagreeing on anything. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 11:12 AM)Jommybone Wrote: Funny. When I wrote “seems like,” I meant to express a lack of confidence and leave room for all kinds of exceptions. Don’t think we’re disagreeing on anything. Ah, well part of the confusion I'm perceiving could be that I'm just not very bright. There are lots of factors involved in communication. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - Jommybone - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 11:13 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Ah, well part of the confusion I'm perceiving could be that I'm just not very bright. There are lots of factors involved in communication. Not buying that. And you raise a good point. But here’s my thinking step by step: Q1, did Mavs really say they need a wing? Q2, were they being honest? Q3, what did they mean by wing? Q4, don’t they already have plenty of whatever they meant by wing? Q4, doesn’t that imply there’s a trade already lined up? Q5, is f’n KD gonna screw that up and leave us with Jaden Hardy in the rotation? RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - ItsGoTime - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 10:43 AM)Jommybone Wrote: This. In today’s NBA, it seems to mean the 3 guys who aren’t tasked with initiating the offense (point) or defending the rim (big). It gets used much like 3&D. Here,So, I’m mostly good with this, with some exceptions. I think of the term “wing” in the modern day game as mostly a defensive term. Basically a guy that can adequately guard multiple positions. On offense they can do a myriad of things, so that is why that side doesn’t really matter as much. I think there are guys like THJ that doesn’t really fit the term of “wing” and is more of a traditional SG. So just lumping him in with the “wings” and playing him that way is not exactly his wheelhouse and is possibly a reason he showed poorly in the beginning of the season last year. He isn’t the only one, just the easiest example. This leads to the term “big”. I think of that term to encompass the guys that can only be a C or C/PF. There are guys that can dip down and adequately defend the 3-5, those to me are the “big wings”, guys like Maxi after watching him guard Kawhi when healthy. I think of Harris, Barnes and Collins as “big wings” too. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - ItsGoTime - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 11:12 AM)Jommybone Wrote: Funny. When I wrote “seems to,” I meant to express a lack of confidence and leave room for all kinds of exceptions. Don’t think we’re disagreeing on anything.I try to always use this type wording for the same reasons. Doesn’t stop people from thinking I set things in concrete. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 11:24 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I think of the term “wing” in the modern day game as mostly a defensive term. See, here's yet another way wires can get crossed. I find this thinking to be extremely counterintuitive, to the point where I'm tempted to say it's flat out incorrect, but then again I know others who think this same way, like @"Kammrath", for example. The point I'm making is less about who's right and who's wrong and more about nomenclature used for the sake of brevity. It's only really useful if it conveys meaning as well or better than a more detailed description. To my mind, using "wing" to mean so many different things, as we are prone to do around here, doesn't achieve that. I suspect that due to the origin of the term (a place on the court, identified to help draw up offensive plays), THJ qualifies more than most of the other players originally mentioned, since those are the areas he occupies when he's on the court most often. But, I concede that the term has been modified to also include other types of players, not just players who play on the wings. At this point the term is used so differently by so many different people that it's difficult to truly reach a consensus. Sidebar: I think this is part of why some people can't get into basketball, hockey or soccer. In American football and baseball, it's sooooo clear who is playing what position, and with some study even the most casual fan can develop a decent understanding of what each position's responsibilities are on any given play. In basketball, I've noticed that there are folks who've been following the sport for decades whose understanding of that type of thing drastically differs from my own. It's super fascinating, imo, and maybe part of why some of us enjoy the sport so much. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - ItsGoTime - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 11:48 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: See, here's yet another way wires can get crossed. I find this thinking to be extremely counterintuitive, to the point where I'm tempted to say it's flat out incorrect, but then again I know others who think this same way, like @"Kammrath", for example.I think it ties in to your thoughts on the term “position-less basketball”. The two terms started being used around the same time, so to make sense of using both terms, in my head (because, wing IS a position if we use it traditionally), I think of it as a changing of the traditional term to be defensive in nature. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - Kidnova - 07-07-2022 In my discussions with other fans over the years, "wing" has almost always meant someone that can play the 2 or the 3. There are those players that are big and athletic enough to play 2-4, so they meet that definition as well, but I think the only firm qualification to be considered a wing is that you can cover those two spots. Obviously, based on the discussion here, that's not universally accepted. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - dirkfansince1998 - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 12:10 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I think it ties in to your thoughts on the term “position-less basketball”. The two terms started being used around the same time, so to make sense of using both terms, in my head (because, wing IS a position if we use it traditionally), I think of it as a changing of the traditional term to be defensive in nature. Comes down to offense or defense. For the most part people think of Luka as the Mavs PG. But if we look at the defensive matchup he is a wing or a forward (more PF than SF). In contrast many 3&D arche types like Frank, Bradley or Beverley are defending PGs but are limited to a spot up (wing) role on offense. Also don´t think that the concept of positionless basketball is completly new. In the 80s Magic was the Lakers PG on offense. On defense Cooper was defending PGs. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - ItsGoTime - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 12:24 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Comes down to offense or defense. For the most part people think of Luka as the Mavs PG. But if we look at the defensive matchup he is a wing or a forward (more PF than SF). In contrast many 3&D arche types like Frank, Bradley or Beverley are defending PGs but are limited to a spot up (wing) role on offense.But Magic was an exception to the rule, now that is the rule with traditional types being the exceptions. At least in my mind. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - KillerLeft - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 12:24 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: Comes down to offense or defense. For the most part people think of Luka as the Mavs PG. But if we look at the defensive matchup he is a wing or a forward (more PF than SF). In contrast many 3&D arche types like Frank, Bradley or Beverley are defending PGs but are limited to a spot up (wing) role on offense. I love this. I feel like this gets us closer to a consensus (not that we'll ever get there). RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - Kammrath - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 09:23 AM)mvossman Wrote: Its interesting to me how there was a ton of praising for Nico after the Wood trade, but since then as the offseason has unraveled into complete disaster, there has not been a single mention of him. I think folks were so hopeful that Nico would turn this FO around, but if you take a step back and look at things from a distance, it was always unlikely that they were going to be able to fix a dysfunctional FO with an over meddling owner by hiring somebody with zero NBA experience. Fundamentally disagree with this. "A complete disaster"? Come on. JB is leaving, but we don't even know the details of whether there is a sign and trade or not. JB had the childhood dream of playing for NYK. NYK tampered like crazy to make it happen. That's not on Nico. Also, the offseason isn't a disaster, it has barely started. McGee is signed. Hardy was drafted. Dragic not signing isn't a disaster because we don't know what is next. The offseason is an INCOMPLETE right now. So some people aren't jumping to conclusions with very little data. Let's talk once the roster is set, then we can grade the offseason. RE: MAVS NEWS: interest in Thybulle? Kyrie?? | Hardy to sign 3-yr deal - dirkfansince1998 - 07-07-2022 (07-07-2022, 11:48 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: Sidebar: I think this is part of why some people can't get into basketball, hockey or soccer. In American football and baseball, it's sooooo clear who is playing what position, and with some study even the most casual fan can develop a decent understanding of what each position's responsibilities are on any given play. In basketball, I've noticed that there are folks who've been following the sport for decades whose understanding of that type of thing drastically differs from my own. It's super fascinating, imo, and maybe part of why some of us enjoy the sport so much. I think team sports are ever changing. With new schemes, formations and positions. Be it the wing/forward debate in basketball. Soccer coming up with things like the "false nine". Rise and fall of the full back in football. NBA teams starting to switch everything and playing positionless basketball. NFL teams playing more and more nickel formations. Strong safety position developing into some kind of hybrid safety/linebacker. |