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+--- Thread: DRAFT: #18 [Green] & #31 [Terry] & trade for #36 [Tyler Bey] (/showthread.php?tid=200)
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RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-14-2020
@"Kammrath", here's a draft tie in on the above:
Dan and I are now BOTH pretty convinced that the Dallas role in that Chris Paul deal is to take back Rubio. I'm still skeptical that they have a chance at #10, but he's holding out hope. And, I can much more easily swallow the fairy tale of them getting #10 if they're doing the service of taking Rubio's guaranteed years.
So, for a second, let's say it's Rubio/#10, not just Rubio, with DFS/Wright going out (and probably both picks).
Imo, that would put an end to the Killian Hayes talk. I would think DFS going out means another player like that coming in, especially if it's Rubio and not Oubre. At #10, that means Vassell or SBey, right?
Now, consider that SBey seems to be the dude most concerned with keeping which teams he has worked out for confidential. Does that remind you of how anyone does business?
IF the Mavs are involved in the Paul trade when it goes down, my predictions are:
1) Rubio only
2) Rubio/SBey (but I'd hope for Vassell)
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Scott41theMavs - 11-14-2020
(11-14-2020, 11:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @"Kammrath", here's a draft tie in on the above:
Dan and I are now BOTH pretty convinced that the Dallas role in that Chris Paul deal is to take back Rubio. I'm still skeptical that they have a chance at #10, but he's holding out hope. And, I can much more easily swallow the fairy tale of them getting #10 if they're doing the service of taking Rubio's guaranteed years.
So, for a second, let's say it's Rubio/#10, not just Rubio, with DFS/Wright going out (and probably both picks).
Imo, that would put an end to the Killian Hayes talk. I would think DFS going out means another player like that coming in, especially if it's Rubio and not Oubre. At #10, that means Vassell or SBey, right?
Now, consider that SBey seems to be the dude most concerned with keeping which teams he has worked out for confidential. Does that remind you of how anyone does business?
IF the Mavs are involved in the Paul trade when it goes down, my predictions are:
1) Rubio only
2) Rubio/SBey (but I'd hope for Vassell)
I would want not only Hayes or Vassell, but Haliburton - and Avdija - and Okoro - and Terry - and Smith - before S. Bey.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-14-2020
(11-14-2020, 11:18 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I would want not only Hayes or Vassell, but Haliburton - and Avdija - and Okoro - and Terry - and Smith - before S. Bey.
Oh, I'm not trying to make a statement about value. But, the Mavs drafting a guard has never quite sat just right with me. They have Luka and Brunson already - two young guards. Even if they like Hayes, I just have a feeling that a real, live young 3 is the thing this team needs the most. I've always felt like that, even before we started imagining DFS in another uniform.
I love Vassell, but I also think teams put a PREMIUM on the kind of NBA ready status a guy like Bey has. I think you guys are getting lower and lower on him for some superficial reasons. We'll see if he's a dud, but I doubt it.
Look at how well Brunson worked. This is another Villanova player - smart, well-trained, no ego, professionalism well in progress. He's got good size for the position, takes pride in defense and can shoot. I can see them being really excited about him, and there doesn't seem to be any way he makes it to #18.
Just a thought I had after Dan and I talked.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 11-14-2020
(11-14-2020, 11:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: let's say it's Rubio/#10, not just Rubio, with DFS/Wright going out (and probably both picks).
Imo, that would put an end to the Killian Hayes talk. I would think DFS going out means another player like that coming in, especially if it's Rubio and not Oubre. At #10, that means Vassell or SBey, right?
Now, consider that SBey seems to be the dude most concerned with keeping which teams he has worked out for confidential. Does that remind you of how anyone does business?
1) I have always LOVED Rubio and like @"DanSchwartzman" have dreamed about him in DAL. I literally have no problem with him next to Luka in the backcourt.
2) I am 100% ok with the Rubio/#10 for DFS/Wright/#18. But without the pick swap I am 100% out.
3) If you trade for the #10 pick you have to be aiming as high as you can. I still aim for Hayes if he is there. I am comfortable with Vassell as the DFS replacement if you get #10. I am comfortable with Haliburton.
4) I am 100% OUT on SBey at #10. I don't want anyone else at #10 other than Hayes, Vassell, or Haliburton. I would much rather keep DFS and #18. I only want #10 if MY GUY is available there, not enough difference between #10 and #18 otherwise.
5) I do think SBey's silence would be a clue, except it was already reported that SBey was working out with DAL. So I don't think it means anything.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-14-2020
(11-14-2020, 11:18 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I would want not only Hayes or Vassell, but Haliburton - and Avdija - and Okoro - and Terry - and Smith - before S. Bey.
Can't speak to Smith or Terry, but I think everyone else on your list is gone before 10 except for Avdija, who I think is about to fall like a stone.
Avdija is a sub 50% ft shooter, which pretty much guarantees he'll never be an acceptable C&S guy, and while he's good on-ball, he's not good enough to consistently play that role for an NBA team. I would be shocked to see him go as high as some are listing him and want the Mavs to have nothing to do with him.
I can see them liking Smith, but there's no way they can justify using the #10 pick on a big with their roster in the shape it's in right now, imo. I mean, if it's Zion or Shaq, sure, but it's not.
I'm sure they love Terry, just based on his shooting, but again, in this scenario, Rubio is here...and you might still have THJ and Curry. Doesn't seem like a fit.
I think that 3&D guy is who would make the most sense. I love Vassell, and would hope for him, but I can definitely see Sbey being their guy, and I don't think he makes it to #18. Hell, I'm not even sure Vassell makes it to #10, tbh.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 11-14-2020
(11-14-2020, 11:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Avdija
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/Qb5AnG2cn5m1y/giphy.gif)
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-14-2020
(11-14-2020, 11:40 PM)Kammrath Wrote: 4) I am 100% OUT on SBey at #10. I don't want anyone else at #10 other than Hayes, Vassell, or Haliburton. I would much rather keep DFS and #18. I only want #10 if MY GUY is available there, not enough difference between #10 and #18 otherwise.
Interesting, thanks.
I think Haliburton is off the board at #4 unless Ball drops. I'd say no chance. Vassell and Hayes are both hard to peg, as I'm sure you'll agree.
I can see where you're coming from, but I guess I just don't see ANY of these dudes as the type of player you trade up for and then make the other pieces fit around them. I just feel like a trade up in this particular draft (not as a general rule) would be to target the best option to fill a specific need.
We will know very soon.
(11-14-2020, 11:43 PM)Kammrath Wrote:(11-14-2020, 11:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Avdija is a sub 50% ft shooter
Did I get the number wrong? I was pretty sure it was below, but I might've misremembered. What is it? 52%?
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 11-14-2020
(11-14-2020, 11:47 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Did I get the number wrong? I was pretty sure it was below, but I might've misremembered. What is it? 52%?
GIF miscommunication.....I am out of Advija because of the same reason as you. Poor FT shooting is a disaster if you aren't a dominant big man.
FT% is in the 50's....like 58%?
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - DanSchwartzgan - 11-15-2020
(11-14-2020, 11:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: @"Kammrath", here's a draft tie in on the above:
Dan and I are now BOTH pretty convinced that the Dallas role in that Chris Paul deal is to take back Rubio. I'm still skeptical that they have a chance at #10, but he's holding out hope. And, I can much more easily swallow the fairy tale of them getting #10 if they're doing the service of taking Rubio's guaranteed years.
So, for a second, let's say it's Rubio/#10, not just Rubio, with DFS/Wright going out (and probably both picks).
Imo, that would put an end to the Killian Hayes talk. I would think DFS going out means another player like that coming in, especially if it's Rubio and not Oubre. At #10, that means Vassell or SBey, right?
Now, consider that SBey seems to be the dude most concerned with keeping which teams he has worked out for confidential. Does that remind you of how anyone does business?
IF the Mavs are involved in the Paul trade when it goes down, my predictions are:
1) Rubio only
2) Rubio/SBey (but I'd hope for Vassell)
Why not Nesmith?
KP/WCS
Millsap/Maxi
Luka/Nesmith
THJ/Curry
Rubio/Brunson
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-15-2020
I'd be fine with that, too, but even I think that's too high for him @"DanSchwartzman".
But, that's fine with me, because he's one of the guys I can see making it to #18, and I still don't think the pick swap is the point.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Scott41theMavs - 11-15-2020
(11-15-2020, 12:50 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I'd be fine with that, too, but even I think that's too high for him @"DanSchwartzman".
But, that's fine with me, because he's one of the guys I can see making it to #18, and I still don't think the pick swap is the point.
If you're getting Rubio with no pick swap, then what the hell are the Mavs giving up?
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-15-2020
(11-15-2020, 01:08 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: If you're getting Rubio with no pick swap, then what the hell are the Mavs giving up?
DFS/Wright. I wouldn't include #18 without the pick swap, myself, but I might include 31. I can't say that I'm 100% confident the Mavs wouldn't include #18, however. I hope not.
I think Rubio, along with Dan's Milsap idea above, makes the team A LOT better.
If the deal does include the pick swap it's a no-brainer. No hesitation.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Scott41theMavs - 11-15-2020
(11-15-2020, 01:14 AM)KillerLeft Wrote:(11-15-2020, 01:08 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: If you're getting Rubio with no pick swap, then what the hell are the Mavs giving up?
DFS/Wright. I wouldn't include #18 without the pick swap, myself, but I might include 31. I can't say that I'm 100% confident the Mavs wouldn't include #18, however. I hope not.
I think Rubio, along with Dan's Milsap idea above, makes the team A LOT better.
If the deal does include the pick swap it's a no-brainer. No hesitation.
If the Suns are giving up Rubio, their starting PG, it's because someone else is playing PG for them. I would assume that's CP3, or they snagged Hayes or Haliburton at 10. Point being, I'm not sure how available Rubio is if they don't get Paul.
This is the sort of thing that is pissing me off about this offseason (or, more precisely, about *last* offseason) - just because we decide we'd like to see a given player in Maverick green doesn't mean that the other team will cooperate in making that happen.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-15-2020
(11-15-2020, 01:34 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: If the Suns are giving up Rubio, their starting PG, it's because someone else is playing PG for them. I would assume that's CP3, or they snagged Hayes or Haliburton at 10. Point being, I'm not sure how available Rubio is if they don't get Paul.
This is the sort of thing that is pissing me off about this offseason (or, more precisely, about *last* offseason) - just because we decide we'd like to see a given player in Maverick green doesn't mean that the other team will cooperate in making that happen.
You're misunderstanding, somehow, sorry.
The whole point of this is Chris Paul going to Phoenix. That has never been in question.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Scott41theMavs - 11-15-2020
(11-15-2020, 01:41 AM)KillerLeft Wrote:(11-15-2020, 01:34 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: If the Suns are giving up Rubio, their starting PG, it's because someone else is playing PG for them. I would assume that's CP3, or they snagged Hayes or Haliburton at 10. Point being, I'm not sure how available Rubio is if they don't get Paul.
This is the sort of thing that is pissing me off about this offseason (or, more precisely, about *last* offseason) - just because we decide we'd like to see a given player in Maverick green doesn't mean that the other team will cooperate in making that happen.
You're misunderstanding, somehow, sorry.
The whole point of this is Chris Paul going to Phoenix. That has never been in question.
OKC is talking to other teams...
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-15-2020
(11-15-2020, 02:07 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: OKC is talking to other teams...
About Paul? Yeah, maybe. If the Paul to PHX deal doesn't happen, then this one probably won't, either. But that goes without saying. I have a good feeling about it.
I'm not sure how we got our wires crossed here. The whole thing is contingent on the Paul deal - THAT is what I meant by "never been in question." When I said I didn't think the point of it was the pick swap, I meant for DALLAS. Like, I think they'd do it without exchanging #10 for #18. I wasn't making a comment about any picks changing hands between PHX and OKC. I assume #10 will go to them, but they might hold strong. We'll see.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - khaled1987 - 11-15-2020
3 days, and few hours , till the Mavs get a future All NBA player who will be their 2nd best player during the Luka dynasty.
#FACTS
#Wemove
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - DanSchwartzgan - 11-15-2020
(11-15-2020, 01:34 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote:(11-15-2020, 01:14 AM)KillerLeft Wrote:(11-15-2020, 01:08 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: If you're getting Rubio with no pick swap, then what the hell are the Mavs giving up?
DFS/Wright. I wouldn't include #18 without the pick swap, myself, but I might include 31. I can't say that I'm 100% confident the Mavs wouldn't include #18, however. I hope not.
I think Rubio, along with Dan's Milsap idea above, makes the team A LOT better.
If the deal does include the pick swap it's a no-brainer. No hesitation.
If the Suns are giving up Rubio, their starting PG, it's because someone else is playing PG for them. I would assume that's CP3, or they snagged Hayes or Haliburton at 10. Point being, I'm not sure how available Rubio is if they don't get Paul.
This is the sort of thing that is pissing me off about this offseason (or, more precisely, about *last* offseason) - just because we decide we'd like to see a given player in Maverick green doesn't mean that the other team will cooperate in making that happen.
I agree Phoenix needs to come away with a PG in all of this. If not Paul, I think they are a strong candidate for VanVleet (as I wrote on the prior page). They can currently generate $18mm in room, but that won't get it done. But, add the $4mm from a Rubio for Wright/DFS deal and they are there. Now we have two paths for Phoenix to replace Rubio at PG without using their pick for Hayes or Haliburton. BTW, why would Phoenix, who thinks they are a playoff team now, want to turn the PG job over to a rookie?
Dallas certainly isn't paying 18 for the privilege of giving up DFS/Wright for 2 years of Rubio. At worst we keep 18 and at best we swap it for 10. If Hollinger and Nate can't agree on whether #10 would be involved in a deal for Paul, how are we supposed to? BTW, NBA.com runs a consensus draft among the top sites. Consensus 11 is Vassell and consensus 12 is Nesmith. If you want those guys, you probably need to get to 10.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - burekemde - 11-15-2020
I agree with kammrath. After watching more of Hayes, he is going to be really really good I think. The thing is, a player with multiple great skills, feel for the game, able to get in the paint and score easily from under the basket. Its ok when there is a skill or two you lack (right hand, spot up shooting), when you have so many other skills.
The more skills you have, the easier you are going to adapt. If you only have one skill , and it turns out to not work, you are really going to struggle.
In general, for players not being able to get easy in the paint and score from under the basket, whatever the style, through layups, dunks, or posting up, or combinations - this lack of ability is one major indicator for struggling in the NBA. If you cant get to basket and score, you really will rely on outside shooting, and contributing in other ways, and then it gets hard if you are not elite shooter, or even if you are elite shooter in college but not in the NBA.
Hayes is a very safe pick. Different guard than Haliburton. Gets much better to the basket than Tyrese does. They both have the feel for game and adapting to situations. Haliburton is far better shooter. However, Hayes can post up, and make the mid range jumper as well under pressure.
Hayes may be the best player from this draft. Haliburton up there as well. One of those two would be the best from this class to pair up with Luka, and a level below them would be Bane IMO.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - DanSchwartzgan - 11-15-2020
(11-14-2020, 09:29 PM)KillerLeft Wrote:(11-14-2020, 09:06 PM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: I realize you put the board on suicide watch for Rubio, but I LOVE him. Been fantasy trading for him for 5-6 years.
Now, we're talking. I like Rubio, too, and my insistence that we BE PREPARED was only meant to counteract the extremely negative reaction the board had to the idea. We know the Mavs like him, and if they thought Kemba Walker could work, it's not that far of a stretch to think they could talk themselves into Rubio.
I've been tempted to pose the following Earth shattering question for a couple of weeks now, but have been too scared of backlash. I'm going to do so now, but please understand that this is me trying to figure out what THEY think, not making my own assertion:
Are we sure the Mavs want Luka to play PG? Are we even sure HE wants to do that?
Imo, we don't quiiiiiite have enough info to confidently answer in the affirmative. BE PREPARED.
In any event, I think it's EXTREMELY believable that the team who traded for 2008 Jason Kidd and carved out the role we saw him play well into his 30's would value that portion of Rubio's career more highly than other teams.
- great defender
- better catch and shoot guy than advertised and improving in his old age
- floor general type who doesn't need the ball in his hands for much of the possession to make an impact
It's like a carbon copy, imo.
I find this line of thinking compelling. Luka played well next to Dragic. Dallas did go after Kemba and Beverley last off-season and signed Wright to play the role you are envisioning. There is a league-wide trend to larger wings being "a" primary ball handler who is complimented by a non-traditional PG in a starting role (someone who can guard the position and have success on and off the ball).
It is great that Luka has been established as such an on-the-ball star who is also incredibly efficient. But, that approach limits success. So, unless we want to be capped out like the Harden-led Rockets, we need to diversify the attack more. I also wonder if really good free agents will want to come here if Luka continues to post a usage rate of 87% (exaggerating).
What you are doing if you do this (and sign a multi-year MLE guy like Millsap and extend THJ) is you are opening the contending window right now. If you go back to The Athletic's top 125, Millsap is in the same 120-ish area as Curry, THJ and Maxi (and a tier above DFS presumably). He would be higher if not for his age. Rubio is in the 75-80 area alongside OPJ, Beverley, Dinwiddie and LaVine. Adding both gives you 7 guys in the top 125 (Luka, KP, Rubio, Millsap, Maxi, THJ and Curry). There were 8 teams that had six guys in the top 125 (Boston, Brooklyn, Houston, LAC, Miami, Toronto and Utah). Dallas would be the only team with 7 of them (and would still have WCS, Brunson and a draft pick...Vassell or Nesmith if I were in charge...outside the top 7). BTW, an uninjured Powell would have also made the top 125 as he shows better than Maxi using the stats Hollinger used for this. That is a SUPER DEEP team.
I'm using Millsap in my posts because I think he's very available and probably won't want to go to Detroit or Charlotte et al. But, you can accomplish the same thing with any of Ibaka, Crowder, Bertans, Gallinari, C. Wood or Harrell.