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+--- Thread: DRAFT: #18 [Green] & #31 [Terry] & trade for #36 [Tyler Bey] (/showthread.php?tid=200)
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RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Scott41theMavs - 10-31-2020
FWIW, Tankathon has Tiger 14th on their big board (their mock doesn't have him going until 27).
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - FunkBoreland - 10-31-2020
I feel that half the board is wanting an athletic, defensive minded, off ball players.
And the other half want to risk assets to trade up for a star draft player that gets right away into the starting lineup.
I rather go with the former, than latter. And mainly because of 21-22 season, where we have no draft picks and where the main focus will be to sign a Star Player. THAT PLAYER will be your creator/starter/clutch player that adds another playmaker.
I understand the Win-now concept, but your Win-now is short-sighted if the player you gain doesn't pan out. You've created a Clippers dilemma (trade all draft assets for a Paul-George).
Rather, go for the build of young, coachable, hustle players. I can only think of 1 athletic/hustle wing with DFS, all the others are decent athletically. I really hope Donnie doesn't trade up and give up assets, unless their last name is Wright or Jackson.
My draft rank would be something like this (without trading up beyond #10):
- Vassell - 6'7 Height, 6'10 Wingspan.The ideal 3D wing, has great motor on both sides, great shotblocker.
- Nesmith - 6'6 Height, 6'10 WS. 23 PPG player, great size and strength with defensive improving by year.
- T.Bey - 6'7 H, 7'1 WS. The combine's record setter, athletic freak, his length will bother positions 1-5.
- S.Bey - 6'8 H, 6'10 WS. High defensive IQ and on team defense. Knows how to defend from post to perimeter.
- Woodard - 6'7 H 7'1 WS. NBA ready body. Strength and length would put him against Lebrons and Kawhis.
- Ty. Aelxander - 6'4 H 6'8 WS. Best guard defender in the draft, would make it harder for Lilard, Curry type guards.
Depending on our Free agency, we're already loaded in centers (KP, Cauley-Stein, DP, Boban). Thats why I didn't feel like putting Achiuwa, Stewart or Azubukie. Those positions are already limited in minutes.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Scott41theMavs - 10-31-2020
FBL, I don't necessarily agree with your take on waiting on a playmaker - to me, that's punting on a year, but perhaps Luka can survive (and improve) while being the sole focal point of the offense another year - but I do agree that, if the Mavs don't try to get higher, they should probably go for a defensive wing or wing-four at 18 and perhaps a guard at 31. In the event we don't move up at all, I'm still a huge proponent of buying another late first pick (since the rumor is they're available, in some cases, for cash). If we move up a little bit, it likely costs either 31 (in which case you'd damn well better buy a late first) or Brunson (in which case you still have to buy the pick, because you need to replace him, unless you think we're good with Curry, a re-signed Burke, and giving in to JJB's unreasonable playing demands).
I really like your list, with the caveat that you aren't getting Vassell without drafting 10 at the lowest (I think trading for that pick will be expensive), and you aren't getting Saddiq without at least 13. Of course, if one rates Tiger over Saddiq, that doesn't matter.
(10-31-2020, 04:21 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: My whole basis for the Atlanta trade is arrogance in my own scouting abilities. I have every confidence that Avdija and Okongwu aren't going to bust, and that Haliburton may never be an All-Star but will be third-best-player-on-a-contender-caliber by year two or three and onward. As for Hayes, I have more question marks about him, but if the Mavs' scouting department believed he could be a star, then sure. There's always bust-because-Len-Bias or bust-because-Greg-Oden to worry about, but most teams comfortably assume those things aren't going to happen. Acts of God, or acts of dumb.
If the Mavs do that, perhaps they could buy a pick in the mid-20s and package that with 31 to move back into the Tiger Bay range.
You could have
Luka-Brunson
Hayes or Haliburton-Burke (brought back on the room exception)
THJ-DFS
Grant-Bey-Powell
KP-WCS
or
Luka-Brunson
FVV-Burke
THJ-DFS
Avdija or Okongwu-Bey-Powell
KP-WCS
Or, depending on how much he costs, you could have
Luka-Brunson
draftee-Burke
Hayward-THJ
Bey-DFS-Powell
KP-WCS
or
Luka-Brunson
THJ-Burke
Hayward-DFS
draftee-Bey-Powell
KP-WCS
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 10-31-2020
So, it's very simple.
IF the Mavs believe there's a difference maker (more than a role player) in the lottery of this draft, then it's a good year to move up for him, because so many teams are trying to move out of those spots. This is the Cuban "do the opposite of whatever everyone else is doing" approach. Less resistance.
But, the reason so many teams want to move out of those spots is because they don't see sure-fire difference makers to select. In other words, they feel like the guaranteed money attached to those draft slots has a good chance of seeming misspent on the best players available at those positions. They'd prefer to flip those spots for safer picks further down the line while picking up additional assets. They want to spend the same money on multiple role players, rather than one player who they don't really love.
So, for the "go in the opposite direction" approach to work and not be another move in the long tradition of Cuban outsmarting himself, there has to be a player who will be a difference maker there that these other teams are undervaluing. "Going in the opposite direction" relative to the trend is smart, IF you see something other teams don't.
Does anyone here believe that there's a player or multiple players in the lottery of this draft that somehow, only the Mavericks of all teams truly appreciates?
EDIT: The last question was rhetorical. Obviously, some of you do and have said as much. I'm skeptical, but the post was an effort to frame the situation.
I am all for trading up a LITTLE for a GREAT role player, like Vassell or SBey, for example. That's something I could see making sense in a "going in the opposite direction" as everyone else year. You could potentially get a relative value steal that way in these circumstances.
But I'm really skeptical that Mavs are prepared to do anything near what it would take to get up to pick #6, for example, in this draft. Yes, the price of #6 is likely to be far less than what it would be in a more typical draft, but it's still going to hurt, and the guy you draft there will be much, much farther away from a sure thing that some are admitting.
I think it's awesome that we have a few draft/prospect scouting enthusiasts here. It makes the community a more enriching experience for all of us (that's an understatement). But I think watching hours of film on these guys, spending so much time immersed in the vision of how the best case scenarios of their careers might play out has a drug like effect on our thinking. There will be 30 more drafted players next year, and the year after, and the year after. There quite literally isn't a player in this draft that will make or break the Mavs like Luka did. If you can efficiently and cost effectively snag a good one, then SUPER! Anything above that, idk...
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - burekemde - 10-31-2020
Good question on the philosophy what to improve, how to build the team, this is the main question indeed and not discussed enough.
I think that answer lies in Luka and to build the team around him, and not building from scratch as tough he is not even on this team We need this as a major consideration how to draft and what team to build, that is coherent and matches well with chemistry. We have lacked toughness, we were not mentally and physically strong enough, we lacked shooting, despite so many open looks as a team we did not take well enough advantage of this. We lacked defense. We lacked bbIQ as a team. Creativity was OK team wise, mainly as Luka is a genius at creativity.
Playmaker, a secondary one at SG would be nice if possible as people here mention, but I really disagree this is the main skill to look after, there are areas far more important. Elite shooting and general bbIQ, defense, this is where the best complement to Luka is, toughness as well. The bench PG and SG, should have better playmaking indeed but I will not discuss the bench here. This is why I believe mostly in Bane and Haliburton as SG as best fits and especially Bane with toughness dimension. At SF need to improve in many areas, first and foremost defense, while elite shooting should also be priority, its not good enough what we get from DSF. Same time I really wish the SF to finally able to make something on their own, taking on the defenders one on one, we never see this from DFS, and perhaps make the mid range jumper, or get in the paint and score. This is the main reason I think S.Bey would be an awesome fit as he fits everything here. Both defense and shooting, he would seriously upgrade the position. At PF, I would like to see more one on one ability again here as well, to take on the defender, whether this is through posting or whether it is through getting past the defender, and also better defensive play. Rim rolling skill is not necessary the key here, since KP provides it and since this also brings KP more in the paint which is what we want. Thus I think adding either Giannis or Vucevic would tremendously upgrade our team, we need the PF or C (in case KP is PF) to be able to go directly one on one and beat the defenders (as DP cant do this), whether this is post up or with physicality as the way Giannis achieves this goal. DP has been terrible on defense, and any of those upgrade us a lot here as well.
I believe adding this type of SG and SF would make us almost unplayable. We talk about two elite shooters, and one dominating offensive big man, all whom improve us defensively compared to where we are now. All these play in more confinement of the team direction, and fit Luka and KP. It also adds players that can one on one beat the defender. At the moment, this is only Luka and KP that can do this for Mavs, and they have the pressure on them to perform this consistently, they are always the ones that need to beat the defender. Occassionaly we have seen Curry do this, but not with starter level and as a weapon IMO. Obviously, Giannis (with phisicality and ability to get to the paint and score) or Vucevic (shooting and inside scoring) would give us this dimension, and I also think S.Bey would excel here, mainly through his mid range jumpers, that is really a rare skill these days and also would give a new dimension to the team and take away the pressure from Luka/KP to always be go to guys.
I have made these thoughts from the basis of adding one great FA addition and how it might fit well with the draft. If that SG or SF can be found in FA, while big man in the draft, Im all in for it as well. I guess however reached to this end point, these are the skills that would elevate Lukas game, and KP and the team in general:
What to improve:
SG: Elite shooting (THJ is not elite but good ) / toughness (much more than THJ) / bbIQ (more than THJ) / defense (much more than THJ) - Suggestions: Bane or Haliburton improve all of this, especially Bane.
SF: Elite shooting (a lot more than DFS) / toughness (match DFS at least) / defense (improve over DFS). Suggestions: S.Bey
PF/C : one on one offensive play (A LOT more than DP) / defense (A LOT more than DP). Suggestions: Giannis or Vucevic
This would be nightmare to defend. You have in surrounded Luka with 3 elite shooters around him. All of whom are capable to play better defense than we do now. In addition, we add two more players (SF and PF) than in addition to Luka and KP can beat their defender and score one on one. Offensively, this is really where I hope we end up. We also add more toughness as this is our main weakness. Players such as Giannis, Bane and S. Bey give instantly more toughness and hustle to this team, more fight (mental as well as physical).
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 10-31-2020
(10-31-2020, 05:18 PM)FunkBoreland Wrote: My draft rank would be something like this (without trading up beyond #10):Wings are our weakness, we might not have another playmaker but have a few defensive stoppers that would hold the lead for us instead of giving it away. I really would like Tyshon Alexander to be drafted. Why get expensive Jrue Holiday, when we can draft a similar player in Ty-Shon Alexander.
- Vassell - 6'7 Height, 6'10 Wingspan.The ideal 3D wing, has great motor on both sides, great shotblocker.
- Nesmith - 6'6 Height, 6'10 WS. 23 PPG player, great size and strength with defensive improving by year.
- T.Bey - 6'7 H, 7'1 WS. The combine's record setter, athletic freak, his length will bother positions 1-5.
- S.Bey - 6'8 H, 6'10 WS. High defensive IQ and on team defense. Knows how to defend from post to perimeter.
- Woodard - 6'7 H 7'1 WS. NBA ready body. Strength and length would put him against Lebrons and Kawhis.
- Ty. Aelxander - 6'4 H 6'8 WS. Best guard defender in the draft, would make it harder for Lilard, Curry type guards.
You and I see very much eye to eye on this.
I am a HUGE Ty-Shon Alexander guy (he is criminally underrated IMO).
I am very much in the:
1) Trade up if you see a "star"....GO FOR IT!
2) Otherwise, grab guys who will be supportive, role players that mesh around Luka/KP. TBey and Ty-Shon are my two favs for #18 and #31 at this point I think if I was put on the spot. But I like your whole list a lot.
(10-31-2020, 05:40 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: Does anyone here believe that there's a player or multiple players in the lottery of this draft that somehow, only the Mavericks of all teams truly appreciates?
Based on three teams passing on Luka two years ago, I do believe the Mavs see things in the international ranks that other teams don't.
That is why I think Hayes or Avdija are the likely targets if they go in the top 10. Just a guess.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - FunkBoreland - 10-31-2020
burke you hit it !
Definitely needs to be much discussion on team philosophy. Nobody talks about Ricks rotations, with Luka being bench first and having KP lead the second unit, then KP bench with Luka coming in the 2nd quarter with a mix of starters and bench players. Mavs have done well offensively because both units have a star player, either KP or Luka, to put points up but not well in the role players that help step up.(10-31-2020, 06:06 PM)burekemde Wrote: We have lacked toughness, we were not mentally and physically strong enough, we lacked shooting, despite so many looks not took well enough advantage of this. We lacked defense. We lacked bbIQ as a team. Creativity was OK team wise, mainly as Luka is genius at creativity.
Didn't see much of hustle, second wind, motor effort play at all. Mental toughness needs to start on the defensive end. I've only seen DFS and KP with toughness and swagger.
(10-31-2020, 06:06 PM)burekemde Wrote: Elite shooting and general bbIQ, defense, this is where the best complement to Luka is, toughness as well.
Luka will get you the looks, but its up to the role players to hit the shots. I somehow find it hard to believe we don't have elite shooting with Curry and THJ. They can get good, but the playoffs show they lack mental strength to step up, but then again Curry had a leg soreness and THJ had a knee issue.
Instead of being in awe of players capabilities, I'm more interested in how they fit and grow. Carlisle teams for the past two years has had too many guard dominant, shoot and pass plays. I've yet to see a diverse Mavs team, only a glimpse of it when it was healthy early in the season.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 10-31-2020
https://twitter.com/MattBabcock11/status/1322680998480420864
That is the best shuttle run time I have EVER seen (it is the fastest on record at the combine as far as I see).
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - dirkfansince1998 - 10-31-2020
Mavs really should replace Reaves and Cleveland with some of the mentioned 2nd round guys. Cleveland is old and had more than one chance to make it in the NBA. Reaves struggled in the g-league.
No way that any of the mid/late 2nd round guys is any worse.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 10-31-2020
https://twitter.com/mjdemarinis/status/1322728345214181377
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Scott41theMavs - 11-01-2020
17 days until the draft.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - ClutchDirk - 11-01-2020
(11-01-2020, 11:36 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: 17 days until we trade up in the draft.FIFY...
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 11-01-2020
https://twitter.com/JamieShaw5/status/1322993043797102593
https://twitter.com/MattBabcock11/status/1322901877348970496
https://twitter.com/NBADraftWass/status/1322957808531361794
https://twitter.com/BryanKalbrosky/status/1322963980890050560
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Scott41theMavs - 11-01-2020
Where are Tyrell Terry's combine measurements? If he's really grown to 6'3", he should shoot up the boards.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 11-01-2020
(11-01-2020, 03:59 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Where are Tyrell Terry's combine measurements? If he's really grown to 6'3", he should shoot up the boards.
I haven't seen anything yet.
Frankly I am not interested in his height, I want to see his wingspan and quickness measurements.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - JamesConway - 11-01-2020
(11-01-2020, 04:05 PM)Kammrath Wrote:Height matters. Luka wouldnt be nearly as good when he was 6‘0 with the same wingspan, athelticism, size, etc. Makes it easier to overlook the court. its a real treshold and important, too.(11-01-2020, 03:59 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Where are Tyrell Terry's combine measurements? If he's really grown to 6'3", he should shoot up the boards.
I haven't seen anything yet.
Frankly I am not interested in his height, I want to see his wingspan and quickness measurements.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 11-01-2020
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2020-nba-draft-biggest-needs-for-all-30-teams-entering-the-offseason/
Quote:Dallas Mavericks
[b]Draft picks owned: 18, 31[/b]
[b]Needs: Overall defense, pick-and-roll finisher, secondary shot-creation[/b]
Dallas literally had the most efficient offense in NBA history last season. An athletic finisher to replace the injured Dwight Powell would be nice if Willie Cauley-Stein isn't back, and the Mavericks relied a bit too heavily on Luka Doncic's ball-handling, but the Mavericks don't have much need to fix what clearly isn't broken. The No. 22-ranked defense, however, needs work. Dorian Finney-Smith and Kristaps Porzingis are the only consistently valuable defenders likely to stick around for the long haul, that Maxi Kleber has his moments.
[b]Potential fits:[/b] Precious Achiuwa, Isaiah Stewart, Tyrell Terry
Achiuwa and Stewart are both great options to fill the rim protector/pick-and-roll finisher need, with length, strength, athleticism and motor. If the Mavericks really want to double down on their league-best offense, Terry could end up being a great value pick at 18 as an excellent shooter who can play off the ball or operate as a secondary playmaker to Doncic. - Ward-Henninger
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - cjeter24 - 11-01-2020
I've seen some stuff the last few days that RJ Hampton is impressing in workouts.
I can't help but wonder if this is the Mavs target for trading up. His projected range would be in the area that would be feasible for the Mavs to move up for.
I think he's got star potential and regardless of his shooting improving, has a very high ceiling as a defender with elite athleticism.
If the Mavs say something similar (or on any guy they trade up for) I trust Donnie's scouting.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - KillerLeft - 11-01-2020
(11-01-2020, 10:09 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: I've seen some stuff the last few days that RJ Hampton is impressing in workouts.
I can't help but wonder if this is the Mavs target for trading up. His projected range would be in the area that would be feasible for the Mavs to move up for.
I think he's got star potential and regardless of his shooting improving, has a very high ceiling as a defender with elite athleticism.
If the Mavs say something similar (or on any guy they trade up for) I trust Donnie's scouting.
Not sure if he's a target, but I've got a really good feeling about Hampton, personally.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18, 6pm | DAL #18 & #31 | 'strong desire' to trade up | Hal & SBey workout - Kammrath - 11-01-2020
https://twitter.com/RealGM/status/1323092283508486144
https://twitter.com/DailyKnicksFS/status/1323058088816070656
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7seTcFWtKNQ