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+--- Thread: DRAFT: #18 [Green] & #31 [Terry] & trade for #36 [Tyler Bey] (/showthread.php?tid=200)
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RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Mapka - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 12:12 AM)cjeter24 Wrote:(09-29-2020, 11:08 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: I'm just skeptical of drafting a guy who doesn't play defense for this Mavericks team. We need one-three starters (depending on how you evaluate whom we currently have). Until Luka becomes a plus defender, we're going to need for all of those guys we add to be very good to great defenders. As I've said before, if we're not going to get a starter out of this draft (e.g. Saddiq Bey), then we are probably best off trading the pick for someone who will be. That said, if they don't think they can get a starter at 18, I would rather they move up to get someone who will be, especially for the value of those on rookie deals.
I'm skeptical of drafting a guard period. We have so many options that can produce in the short term and a great crop of free agent guards next summer (if you don't already trade for one).
The forwards are our biggest weakness and not exactly great options in free agency moving forward. And it sort of feels like everyone always need good wings compared to good guards, like there is a constant shortage of them.
And this problem is making itself worse. As wings are 'more valueable' the franchises with higher draftpicks take them as "bpa".
And normally higher draft pick means lesser development chances due to lesser franchise with lesser system, hierachie and coach.
Not to add, that competent wings are now used as PFs and PFs as Centers.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - DanSchwartzgan - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 12:12 AM)cjeter24 Wrote:(09-29-2020, 11:08 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: As I've said before, if we're not going to get a starter out of this draft (e.g. Saddiq Bey), then we are probably best off trading the pick for someone who will be. That said, if they don't think they can get a starter at 18, I would rather they move up to get someone who will be, especially for the value of those on rookie deals.
I'm skeptical of drafting a guard period. We have so many options that can produce in the short term and a great crop of free agent guards next summer (if you don't already trade for one).
The forwards are our biggest weakness and not exactly great options in free agency moving forward. And it sort of feels like everyone always need good wings compared to good guards, like there is a constant shortage of them.
I really hope they just get BPA. If we think we are finding a "starter" at 18, we aren't as good as we think we are.
I could see us taking guard, big or wing. The argument for a guard is Curry is injured fairly often and is already 30. If the plan is to have cap room in 2021, then the reason we have cap room is we no longer have our starting SG in THJ. So, drafting a guard who can eventually slot into THJ's slot (keeping Curry coming off the bench) does make sense.
It doesn't have to be a SG necessarily. We saw glimpses in the playoffs what it might look like to have "a better version of Burke" on the floor with Luka. This draft has quite a few PG's in the range of our pick...many with much better upside than the wings in this range. Many are falling there because they aren't true lead guards. Guess what, we don't need a true lead guard next to Luka. A 3 & D PG would work well here if they had some play-making skill.
BTW, welcome back.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 07:20 AM)DanSchwartzman Wrote: A 3 & D PG
Who do you see that fills this description in the draft?
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-30-2020
Lots of good discussion going on in here regarding draft strategy. Interesting that everyone is coming from the same, correctly stated assessment of the current roster but arriving at a different thought as to how the team should proceed.
While I agree with the majority held consensus that the Mavs have undervalued the draft historically, and that they need to reverse that trend, I ALSO agree with the team's guiding fear that it's really difficult to consistently find gems through this method. The best way to mitigate this, imo, is to avoid drafting for need unless your draft position happens to intersect with a specific player at a need position whom you feel is a can't miss guy. Obviously, you TRY to hit areas of need, but I just feel like guys who can play are better than guys who can't.
It's not like this team is going to look the way it does now when they reach their peak. The chances of winning a championship while your superstar is on his rookie deal, pre-extension, are extremely low. I think it's likely that a LOT of current players have found their way out of the door, via either trade or free agency, by the time this thing is a true contender.
For that reason, if I'm drafting for the Mavs, I take the guy I'm most sure has a path to a useful role in the NBA. Seems like future value to any team, not just the Mavs, should be one of the goals. And, tbh, if they double up in some areas in the short term a lot of these good role players they have on team friendly deals (Kleber, DFS, Brunson, Curry) could move from the "guys you can't win without" column to the "assets" column.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Hypermav - 09-30-2020
Tankathon has us drafting Pokusevski again. Jaden McDaniels at 31.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 08:40 AM)Hypermav Wrote: drafting Pokusevski
I am just not high on him. His body just feels like a total no go to me. Yes he is thin like say KP was, but there is seems to be way less strength than KP had at the same time.
Here is a lot of film on AP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXuvcomwOR8
For comparison I LOVED KP when he was entering the draft. Here is some video on him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z709wPcNR5s
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 09:05 AM)Kammrath Wrote: For comparison I LOVED KP when he was entering the draft. Here is some video on him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z709wPcNR5s
So, I'm curious:
I believe that you liked him. But, his positions are listed as PF, SF and C, in that order. Did you think he was going to be a 3-4 combo like you do with TBey?
(09-30-2020, 09:05 AM)Kammrath Wrote:(09-30-2020, 08:40 AM)Hypermav Wrote: drafting Pokusevski
I am just not high on him. His body just feels like a total no go to me. Yes he is thin like say KP was, but there is seems to be way less strength than KP had at the same time.
Here is a lot of film on AP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXuvcomwOR8
Well, I'm not sure what to think of this kid. On one hand, I agree that his body seems frail, but on the other hand, this is legitimately a 7'0 SF. He's playing wing in this video. Specifically the 3, I'm pretty sure. Seems very skilled, but a little raw and it doesn't appear to be a very high level of competition he's playing in, either.
I hope the Mavs don't draft him, but I can see why they might talk themselves into it.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Scott41theMavs - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 08:40 AM)Hypermav Wrote: Tankathon has us drafting Pokusevski again. Jaden McDaniels at 31.
What are you looking at? I looked at it again and it has the Wolves drafting Poku and the Mavs drafting Maxey.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - omahen - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 10:45 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: and it doesn't appear to be a very high level of competition he's playing in, either.
This is Greek second division
And even in this league his efficiency was alarmingly low. On the other hand, it is not that difficult to block this (unskilled) guys when you are a 7 footer and post some other nice looking highlights. I would took his positive numbers with a big grain of salt and really focus on negative ones, looking if they are something he can overcome or not. I guess this go way beyond the level of data and video available to us.As most have put it nicely - he is the most polarizing prospect. Some love him, some see bust written all over him. Personally I hope SA picks him with their pick as they did with Samanic last year. They also love their Euros
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Mavs2019 - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 11:10 AM)omahen Wrote:Well his numbers are superior to the reigning MVP in the same league at the same age, so....(09-30-2020, 10:45 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: and it doesn't appear to be a very high level of competition he's playing in, either.
This is Greek second division
He also played for Serbia in the FIBA tournaments against Carey and Stewart with better raw numbers. Tankathon has moved him up to #10, which isn´t that surprising given that he´s got arguably the most raw talent/upside. Due to COVID he has had nine months to work on his body. That alone will tell us a lot about his worth ethic.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - cow - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 09:05 AM)Kammrath Wrote:(09-30-2020, 08:40 AM)Hypermav Wrote: drafting Pokusevski
I am just not high on him. His body just feels like a total no go to me. Yes he is thin like say KP was, but there is seems to be way less strength than KP had at the same time.
Here is a lot of film on AP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXuvcomwOR8
So many airballs.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Scott41theMavs - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 12:29 PM)cow Wrote:(09-30-2020, 09:05 AM)Kammrath Wrote:(09-30-2020, 08:40 AM)Hypermav Wrote: drafting Pokusevski
I am just not high on him. His body just feels like a total no go to me. Yes he is thin like say KP was, but there is seems to be way less strength than KP had at the same time.
Here is a lot of film on AP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXuvcomwOR8
So many airballs.
...so little time.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - cow - 09-30-2020
For fun, here is a list of those drafting ahead of us in a range that we may be able to trade up into (Position, Team, Owned Picks):
#8 Knicks - 8, 27, 38
#9 Wizards - 9, 37
#10 Suns - 10
#11 Spurs - 11, 41
#12 Kings - 12, 35, 43, 52
#13 Pelicans - 13, 39, 42, 60
#14 Celtics - 14, 26, 30, 47
#15 Magic - 15, 45
#16 Blazers - 16, 46
#17 Wolves - 1, 17, 33
Celtics seems like a prime candidate to bundle picks and move up.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - SleepingHero - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 12:53 PM)cow Wrote: 12 Kings - 12, 35, 43, 52
THJ+Wright+18+31 for Buddy+12+43?
Who says no?
I'm never getting off the Buddy train.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - cow - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 12:58 PM)SleepingHero Wrote:(09-30-2020, 12:53 PM)cow Wrote: 12 Kings - 12, 35, 43, 52
THJ+Wright+18+31 for Buddy+12+43?
Who says no?
I'm never getting off the Buddy train.
The Kings should say no but do they even have a GM? The do owe us for the Harry Barnes trade but are probably still a little sore over not drafting Luka.
I also wonder if Buddy is part of the Julius Randle all-star team. Players who murder the Mavs but rarely show out like that against other competition.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - SleepingHero - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 01:01 PM)cow Wrote: Players who murder the Mavs but rarely show out like that against other competition.
Some things to think about that shows Buddy is the real deal. Fastest player to 800 career made 3's (beats Curry out by 9 games). He shot 40% from 3 on close to 10 attempts a game this year (41% career 3pt shooter on 7 attempts a game). Kings were a +2.6 better on offense with Hield on the court. (-2.7 on defense though, but that entire team had issues that could skew these numbers). Durable. Only played less than 80 games once in his career and that was this season (72/75 games played).
Some stuff that dampers the Buddy hype train:
Defense is pretty bad. Not worst in the league, but below average for sure.
Only really occurred this year, but some attitude issues. Had an issue coming off the bench because he felt he was better than that. But I don't blame him for fighting with Luke Walton on his role.
His contract is pretty expensive. He's a top 5 shooter in the league, arguably top 3, but even still 20 mil is ALOT for a dude that needs to be setup for everything and doesn't play a lot of defense. He'd be Klay-lite if he could just defend.
The thing is, the only reason why he's available is because SAC has an equally solid starting SG in Bogdon (who is another player I'd want the Mavs to nab). Given his restricted status, it'd make it tough to get him without overpaying. SAC cannot afford both, and there is overlap in their skillsets. Which means Buddy could be had, and his value is at an all time low. SAC fans were throwing the idea around for THJ+18 for Buddy+12 straight up in August. That's how low they perceive Buddy's value.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - cow - 09-30-2020
At least his contract is descending. You okay with Luka/KP/Buddy big-3? And if his defense is below average...Draft Nesmith/Bane.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - omahen - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 12:58 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: THJ+Wright+18+31 for Buddy+12+43?
Who says no?
Sacramento, and it is not even close. This is far worse than THJ+#18 for Buddy+#12. Sacramento already has an overpaid back up PG, so adding Wright makes no sense for a bit higher second round pick.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 10:45 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I believe that you liked him. But, his positions are listed as PF, SF and C, in that order. Did you think he was going to be a 3-4 combo like you do with TBey?
Ask @"fifteenth", he remembers me being really HIGH on KP.
Anyways, I then saw KP as being an NBA 4/5, the same way I still see it now. As he ages I see him being almost exclusively a 5.
I see TBey as being an NBA 3/4 and VERY different than KP as far as ability to guard the perimeter. As TBey ages and puts on more muscle he will likely just be a 4.
NOTE: I position guys based on DEFENSE, not offense.
(09-30-2020, 01:26 PM)cow Wrote: You okay with Luka/KP/Buddy big-3? And if his defense is below average...Draft Nesmith/Bane.
I am ok with Buddy, but he is far from the top of my list.
Why would you draft two poor defenders in Nesmith and Bane to go with Buddy? That is an act of waving the white flag on D and just jacking up more threes than HOU.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - cow - 09-30-2020
(09-30-2020, 01:33 PM)Kammrath Wrote:(09-30-2020, 10:45 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: I believe that you liked him. But, his positions are listed as PF, SF and C, in that order. Did you think he was going to be a 3-4 combo like you do with TBey?
Ask @"fifteenth", he remembers me being really HIGH on KP.
Anyways, I then saw KP as being an NBA 4/5, the same way I still see it now. As he ages I see him being almost exclusively a 5.
I see TBey as being an NBA 3/4 and VERY different than KP as far as ability to guard the perimeter. As TBey ages and puts on more muscle he will likely just be a 4.
NOTE: I position guys based on DEFENSE, not offense.
(09-30-2020, 01:26 PM)cow Wrote: You okay with Luka/KP/Buddy big-3? And if his defense is below average...Draft Nesmith/Bane.
I am ok with Buddy, but he is far from the top of my list.
Why would you draft two poor defenders in Nesmith and Bane to go with Buddy? That is an act of waving the white flag on D and just jacking up more threes than HOU.
I'm saying draft one of them instead of trading for Buddy.