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+--- Thread: DRAFT: #18 [Green] & #31 [Terry] & trade for #36 [Tyler Bey] (/showthread.php?tid=200)
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RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 12:49 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: EDIT: Just rewatched the whole video to make sure I'm not lying. He's playing as a "big" in that video. Not remotely as a "wing." I think he could possibly be a very nice backup big, eventually, and maybe even the type who can switch on picks and hold his own, but something tells me you're seeing him as a wing, and THAT's what I don't see. I believe that if, in that body, he's really a combo forward, and not a mobile, athletic big, he'll get drafted in the top 20. Long, athletic wings are the thing EVERY team wants right now.
So hold on, let me try something:
His name is JERAMI GRANT.
NOW what do you think??
Haha. So for real, yes he is often the biggest or one of the biggest players on Colorado's team, but that happens ALL THE TIME in college. Just because he was one of the biggest players on his team doesn't mean he isn't a "wing" in the NBA. You have to evaluate the skillset and ability.
He is constantly switching the pick and roll and guarding 1-5. He moves his feet AMAZING on defense and keeps his hands up like a vet. And if you don't see him as athletic, I don't even know what to say. How he runs, jumps, changes directions and speeds.
I seriously have no idea how you watch his tape and think he isn't:
1) An NBA athlete.
2) An NBA ready defender for multiple positions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=088lDXiuXEA&t=525s
So why is he low on many mock drafts?
1) He is 22 and NBA teams are allergic to older players.
2) He has not shown prolific three point shooting. Shot over 40% from three last year but was only 13-31.
3) How his offensive game translates into the NBA is a huge question mark.
4) Most teams are trying to CATCH the Mavs in offensive production so drafting a guy who may not help your offense is a huge turn off to these teams. But to the Mavs? They need to take their defense into the top ten in the NBA and need guys next to Luka/KP.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Scott41theMavs - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 12:49 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: he NBA Draft advertising is by State Farm and is being held on November 18th, which is a Wednesday. Now, things have been changing as dates have been changing. But as we know now, everything is set for the 18th. Also, everyone can watch the NBA Draft by watching it on ESPN.
The modern NBA has a lot of "wings" playing the four. I know Tiger doesn't have the height for that, but he has enough length. I view him as Powell with defense. If his 3p% translates, then he's already a far better shooter than Powell, who, as is the case with Tiger, should only shoot the three (if RC insists, banghead) if wide open.
Here's the Hoops Intellect profile again:
https://youtu.be/088lDXiuXEA
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 01:24 PM)Kammrath Wrote: So hold on, let me try something:
His name is JERAMI GRANT.
NOW what do you think??
Haha. So for real, yes he is often the biggest or one of the biggest players on Colorado's team, but that happens ALL THE TIME in college. Just because he was one of the biggest players on his team doesn't mean he isn't a "wing" in the NBA. You have to evaluate the skillset and ability.
He is constantly switching the pick and roll and guarding 1-5. He moves his feet AMAZING on defense and keeps his hands up like a vet. And if you don't see him as athletic, I don't even know what to say. How he runs, jumps, changes directions and speeds.
I seriously have no idea how you watch his tape and think he isn't:
1) An NBA athlete.
2) An NBA ready defender for multiple positions.
Look, if he can do everything that Grant does, you have something. No argument. The body type is a huge plus in that scenario, and indeed, part of what I like about Grant. Grant's game is way different than this guy's, imo. Similar bodies, but not similar games.
I'm not holding his size (him being the biggest player on the floor because it's a college game) against him, I'm saying that the POSITION he's playing in that video most closely resembles the NBA center position. He's not out there chasing off ball players around screens, he's waiting in the paint. In the defensive-focused portion of the video, there's literally only one play that DOESN'T start with him standing under the basket, and that's because all 5 of the opposing players are in a weird grouping above the 3 point line. In that play, he winds up guarding the ball, gets blown by in one step, and then uses his length to swat the shot. It's a great play against a college player.
"Evaluating his skill set" is exactly what I'm trying to do, but I can only form an opinion on what I've seen, and that video is all I've seen. I don't see anything in that video that makes me think he's a wing. Doesn't mean he can't be, I'm just saying that video doesn't prove it to me. Going solely off of that video, which I have to, I see a small ball center in the NBA, not someone who's prepared to chase players off ball as they run around multiple ball screens, or guard great scorers 1 on 1 in space away from the basket.
And all of that is just about defense. Can this guy handle well enough to drive? Can he shoot from outside well enough for his defender not to harass Luka/KP? To use the comparison you posed, Grant can do all of that. THOSE SKILLS are why Grant's size factors in positively. If he was a center, his size wouldn't be special.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-26-2020
So you have watched one video? You have a HUGE and LOCKED IN opinion already. It's impressive.
If anyone wants to see more of Saddiq Bey's personality, here he is breaking down his own film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nBlrTCY9Ic
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-26-2020
Look, we're saying the same things, just in different ways. Here's how I see it:
- Most of these guys are the biggest, longest players on their team until they get to the NBA.
- The biggest, longest players tend to be played as bigs.
- Unfortunately, in AMERICA, the majority of those players not really being forced to learn a lot of fundamental things as they advance through the machine. They learn how to use their size and athletic ability to their advantage, for sure, but they don't learn EVERYTHING, like the Euros do.
- By the time they get to the NBA, while their size/athletic ability is still a positive, it's far from being SPECIAL, at that point.
- Every year, we see players who, due to prototypical body design, are "projected" at certain positions that they have NEVER played to that point.
- Some of them can eventually make the jump and become proficient at their new positions, but it seems like way more of them can't (at least in the amount of time they're given to do so in the "professional" world) than can.
Again, if he's really a WING with a 7'1" wingspan, you've got something. If he's a small BIG for the NBA, he could still be a good player, but he's probably not a special one. I came away from that first video with the two guys talking thinking he was the latter. It's just my opinion.
(09-26-2020, 01:57 PM)Kammrath Wrote: So you have watched one video? You have a HUGE and LOCKED IN opinion already. It's impressive.
I specifically said numerous times that the one video you provided was all I had to base my opinions on, and that they could be wrong. Pretty sure I conceded this in literally every post. Time and time again, I have stated that I'm not a college basketball guy. I have a "locked in" opinion of what that one video showed - that's all. More evidence could change my opinion of the player, for sure.
It seems disingenuous and a little bit mean spirited to use that as a source of sarcasm. Sorry I don't agree with you. I'm just trying to talk basketball, pal.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Scott41theMavs - 09-26-2020
It all has to do with where the Mavs are drafting, and how far they'd be willing to move up. I think T. Bey is good for where the Mavs are drafting. If they move up, or one of the guys who ought to be picked 1-17 whom the Mavs can use falls, then that's different. I think there's a 100% chance of T.B. being available at 18 (which, as I have said before, probably means he shouldn't be drafted there), much smaller at 31. The Mavs' scouts might come to different conclusions about T.B. than I do, and I'm fine with that if some other team gets him and he's not a contributor (the opposite would piss me off if the Mavs draft a guy who ends up worse).
My first rough Mavs' big board:
1) Ball (doesn't really fit the Mavs, but probably the most talented player)
2) Edwards (similar)
3) Okungwu
4) Hayes
5) Avdija
6) Vassell
7) Haliburton
8) Wiseman
9) S. Bey
10) Okoru
11) Achiuwa
12) Smith
13) Anthony
14) T. Bey
15) Williams
16) Nesmith
17) Reed
18) Bane
19) McDaniels
20) Ramsay
21) Terry
That's about as deep as it goes for guys I like-to-sorta-like at this point. Notice no freaking Toppin (although he'll allow us another choice by being taken top 10). We don't need any more non-defenders.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 01:39 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: Here's the Hoops Intellect profile again:
https://youtu.be/088lDXiuXEA
Sorry if you posted this earlier and I missed it.
This one shows him doing a much wider variety of things. The first set of highlights is 100% comprised of him running to the paint in transition or waiting in the dunker spot for guard to penetrate. These are things that bigs are taught all of their lives.
Later on in the video, though, he IS running around some ball screens on defense, and playing some other roles on offense. This video shows off all the attributes that Kamm's "two guys talking" video describes but doesn't show.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 02:01 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: It seems disingenuous and a little bit mean spirited to use that as a source of sarcasm.
Sorry if that was hurtful. I was just surprised you kept writing paragraph after paragraph on your opinion of him and basically telling me my opinion of him on athleticism, defense, and position was misguided. I was just shocked at you having such strong sentiments from one video (that didn't even show much film). I will communicate that in a kinder way in the future. Sorry.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 02:20 PM)Kammrath Wrote: Sorry if that was hurtful. I was just surprised you kept writing paragraph after paragraph on your opinion of him and basically telling me my opinion of him on athleticism, defense, and position was misguided. I was just shocked at you having such strong sentiments from one video (that didn't even show much film). I will communicate that in a kinder way in the future. Sorry.
I wasn't trying to say your opinion was misguided - just that I didn't see evidence of it in the video you provided. I thought I was carefully stating it that way, but I guess maybe I didn't do a good enough job.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Scott41theMavs - 09-26-2020
Once again, KL, my view of T. Bey is as a "wing four." I wouldn't even play him there (i.e., outside of the five) if we didn't have a five who could drive to the basket and shoot four-pointers. That's my thing with Tiger - he fits the Mavs.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 02:37 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: That's my thing with Tiger - he fits the Mavs.
YES.
1) He can move his feet on D and cover 1-5 in a switching D scheme.
2) He can catch lobs.
3) He is working on his three ball and shows lots of promise with his shot and form.
4) He can rebound.
5) He plays with passion and energy and hustle.
6) He is a rim protecting, weak side shotblocker.
He fits perfectly hidden around Luka and KP while adding things they need around them.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-26-2020
I guess I view KP differently than you guys do.
I think he's likely to be the slowest guy on the court more and more often as time goes by, both because of him aging and the game evolving around him to become faster and faster.
So, to me, it's easier to see that guy who works with KP being a "big wing" and not a "fast, agile big"...I mean, Giannis could do it for sure, so that animal does exist. I just think they're even more rare than the Grants of the world.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 02:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: it's easier to see that guy who works with KP being a "big wing" and not a "fast, agile big".
I don't understand what Scott and I are failing to communicate about our like of Tyler Bey. He fits exactly well with an aging KP, IMO. Aging KP is a big wing on O and more in the paint on D. Tyler Bey can be a lob threat on O on the inside and defend on the perimeter, like DP like Scott said.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Scott41theMavs - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 02:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I guess I view KP differently than you guys do.
I think he's likely to be the slowest guy on the court more and more often as time goes by, both because of him aging and the game evolving around him to become faster and faster.
So, to me, it's easier to see that guy who works with KP being a "big wing" and not a "fast, agile big"...I mean, Giannis could do it for sure, so that animal does exist. I just think they're even more rare than the Grants of the world.
So, I'll say for the third time - I don't see TB as a wing in the traditional sense, but as a four-wing. Also, what Kamm said.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 02:58 PM)Kammrath Wrote:(09-26-2020, 02:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: it's easier to see that guy who works with KP being a "big wing" and not a "fast, agile big".
I don't understand what Scott and I are failing to communicate about our like of Tyler Bey. He fits exactly well with an aging KP, IMO. Aging KP is a big wing on O and more in the paint on D. Tyler Bey can be a lob threat on O on the inside and defend on the perimeter, like DP like Scott said.
No, you've communicated all of that well.
A) I don't LIKE the combo of DP and KP, and it's not because I think DP sucks. I love him.
B) I want TWO DFS like players next to KP, NOT one DFS and a more athletic version of DP. Would be great if the NEW DFS could be a little bigger, but the POINT (for me) is that he's MORE forward than big. If I have my choice of ANY player in the league, I'm taking Lebron or Kawhi for this spot, not Anthony Davis. I don't want anyone who would've been called a PF 10 years ago unless it's someone ridiculous like Giannis.
I DON'T want two bigs on the floor, specifically BECAUSE my center is KP. You guys do. You might be right!
(09-26-2020, 03:04 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: So, I'll say for the third time - I don't see TB as a wing in the traditional sense, but as a four-wing. Also, what Kamm said.
And for the third time, I understand.
If it turns out he can do what Grant can do, great!
Like, prime Kevin Garnett can't do what I think the guy they need can do. It's not a question of athletic ability.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - omahen - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 02:13 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: My first rough Mavs' big board:
No Toppin, because he doesn't play defense? What about picking best player available? If he falls to 18 you pick him and run away smilling. Because if he delivers on offensive end what every one believes he can, you have a great trading asset on you.
You have Williams below T.Bey? Williams has perhaps even more NBA ready body, both are bad offensively. Williams is 18, Bey 22. Williams is a lotter pick in most mocks.
You have Okoru, arguably best 3-D wing in this draft, at 9, below S.Bey and Vassell? Mocks have him in top 10 at worst, some in top 5.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Kammrath - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 03:07 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I want TWO DFS like players next to KP
Ok, I see TBey as more DFS than DP, though I think TBey is FAR more athletic than DFS and potentially adds a lob dimension that the Mavs offense missed since DP went down.
Tell me again in like one or two sentences, how do you see TBey not being like DFS?
(09-26-2020, 03:13 PM)omahen Wrote: Okoru, arguably best 3-D wing in this draft, at 9, below S.Bey and Vassell
Okoru I would take before SBey. But I would take Vassell above Okoru. The Ringer as one example ranks Vassell at 5 on the big board and Okoru at 10.
NOBODY is going to agree on a big board this year, there is just not enough data because of COVID.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - KillerLeft - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 03:18 PM)Kammrath Wrote:(09-26-2020, 03:07 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I want TWO DFS like players next to KP
Ok, I see TBey as more DFS than DP, though I think TBey is FAR more athletic than DFS and adds lob dimension that the Mavs offense misses since DP went down.
Tell me again in like one or two sentences, how do you see TBey not being like DFS?
I formed this opinion (which is admittedly based on a limited amount of info) by observing that
A) he plays a position where most of his offensive/defensive responsibility is similar to what an NBA 5's would be.
B) I don't think it's clear (possible, but not clear) that his dribbling ability, shooting ability and defensive ability will allow him to be a hybrid 3-4 which is what I think they need, and not a hybrid 4-5, which seems to be how he has been trained to play, to this point.
I'm not saying he's not athletic, and tbh, I think he has a future as a 4-5! I just don't think the team with a maxed out Porzingis is the place for him. I think he's WCS here, not DFS.
Like I've said every time, I could be wrong! Just how I see it (so far).
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - JamesConway - 09-26-2020
I'm with KL on T. Bey. Sure, he might be able to put the three ball into his arsenal one day but he hasn't to this point which makes it tough to project an NBA role for him on both ends of the court. I agree that the defensive/athletic upside is there, but if you suck at shooting then Carlisle will either force you to do it anyway (can be hard on a player's confidence) or plug you into the roll man-role and then you're suddenly competing with Powell or WCS for minutes. Good luck with that.
I'm not even sure Derrick Jones Jr is worth the trouble but he's basically the NBA version of Bey if all his athletic/defensive skills translates to the NBA but he never figures out the shooting part. I don't know, I'm not overly high on a player like that considering his age. How is he different from Isaiah Roby? The latter was also a long, very athletic forward who without range when we drafted him aso around 21/22 come draft time and it didn't work out for him.
I'm rooting for a few other players to be available at #31 over T. Bey. T. Terry, Jalen Smith, Leandro Bolmaro, Jaden McDaniels, Theo Maledon, Jamius Ramsey, maybe Woodard. These guys are all over the place depending on what mocks you look at. I'd like all of them more than T. Bey with the GS pick.
RE: DRAFT: Nov 18 (Combine: Sep 28 - Oct 16) | Mavs get #18 & #31 - Scott41theMavs - 09-26-2020
(09-26-2020, 03:27 PM)KillerLeft Wrote:(09-26-2020, 03:18 PM)Kammrath Wrote:(09-26-2020, 03:07 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: I want TWO DFS like players next to KP
Ok, I see TBey as more DFS than DP, though I think TBey is FAR more athletic than DFS and adds lob dimension that the Mavs offense misses since DP went down.
Tell me again in like one or two sentences, how do you see TBey not being like DFS?
I formed this opinion (which is admittedly based on a limited amount of info) by observing that
A) he plays a position where most of his offensive/defensive responsibility is similar to what an NBA 5's would be.
B) I don't think it's clear (possible, but not clear) that his dribbling ability, shooting ability and defensive ability will allow him to be a hybrid 3-4 which is what I think they need, and not a hybrid 4-5, which seems to be what he has been trained to be, to this point.
I'm not saying he's not athletic, and tbh, I think he has a future as a 4-5! I just don't think the team with a maxed out Porzingis is the place for him. I think he's WCS here, not DFS.
Like I've said every time, I could be wrong! Just how I see it (so far).
Then we'll agree to disagree. Hoops Intellect's number one strength on him was his perimeter defense. Perimeter. We'll observe his career (with the Mavs or elsewhere) with great interest and see how he turns out.