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+--- Thread: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green (/showthread.php?tid=1911)
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Chicagojk - 06-14-2024
(06-14-2024, 10:27 AM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: I think the thing that has hurt Josh the most, and some other players of his ilk, is because he was a one and done he never got to be “the man.” And it’s stunted his growth. He was really good as a freshman but had two other players of his calibre if I’m remembering it right.
I also agree with the idea that standing in the corner is not good for his development. Some of that is on the coaching staff. I’ve been begging for a couple years now for them to incorporate some plays in the playbook for him. Because now when the time is here, he’s not ready. Some of that is in Josh’s head and he’s to blame for not being tough minded enough— there is validity to that criticism of him at this point I think. But Kidd’s “system” of rolling the ball out and letting Kai and Luka go to work isn’t helping Josh, or our other ancillary options, at this point in the season.
This is obviously a small sample created a year ago, but I would like to see a faster pace and him having the ball a little more in space. Maybe that unlocks what has been missing. He is obviously not the passer Luka is but has a nice feel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcLOUNl75Xo
It is interesting. I think we need better shooting on the wings, but I think the guys we currently have are not best suited to be the wait for the pass guys. Josh, Jones and probably Omax are also good cutters and they thrive on movement. As we continue to build this thing, I would like to see how we tweak it to account for this extra movement. Luka will find you. At the same time he really likes to know where people should be.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - ballsrchr - 06-14-2024
(06-14-2024, 10:27 AM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: I think the thing that has hurt Josh the most, and some other players of his ilk, is because he was a one and done he never got to be “the man.” And it’s stunted his growth. He was really good as a freshman but had two other players of his calibre if I’m remembering it right.
I also agree with the idea that standing in the corner is not good for his development. Some of that is on the coaching staff. I’ve been begging for a couple years now for them to incorporate some plays in the playbook for him. Because now when the time is here, he’s not ready. Some of that is in Josh’s head and he’s to blame for not being tough minded enough— there is validity to that criticism of him at this point I think. But Kidd’s “system” of rolling the ball out and letting Kai and Luka go to work isn’t helping Josh, or our other ancillary options, at this point in the season.
I think what hurt Josh Green--at least as much as anything else--was being jerked around by Rick Carlisle. I know some people will think I'm nuts, but Carlisle had his pets--and his doghouse. Some of those in his doghouse got jerked around so much it destroyed their confidence. Green seems to me to be quite sensitive and lacking in confidence.
I'm not working at the moment, so I will stand by the phone just in case the Mavs want me to work with the players. I can help Luka realize his untapped potential...
Really...
Oh yeah. Josh Green too...
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - michaeltex - 06-14-2024
A few years back, in one of the summer BBall tournaments (Olympics, maybe?), Josh was on the Aussie national team that performed better than anyone expected. I'm not sure he got any minutes in the qualifiers or the championship brackets. I always wondered how someone with an NBA contract couldn't find a way to productively help his national team.
TBH, I've been a little down on him since and he's done nothing to really change his trajectory. I love the energy he brings when on the floor, but he needs to become a minimal offensive contributor, at the least, to justify $12MM/year.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - dirkfansince1998 - 06-14-2024
(06-14-2024, 01:46 PM)michaeltex Wrote: A few years back, in one of the summer BBall tournaments (Olympics, maybe?), Josh was on the Aussie national team that performed better than anyone expected. I'm not sure he got any minutes in the qualifiers or the championship brackets. I always wondered how someone with an NBA contract couldn't find a way to productively help his national team.
TBH, I've been a little down on him since and he's done nothing to really change his trajectory. I love the energy he brings when on the floor, but he needs to become a minimal offensive contributor, at the least, to justify $12MM/year.
FIBA rules aren't for everyone. Require a skillset that many NBA role players (great athletes, 3&D players) don't have. We have seen legit NBA stars underperform in FIBA tournaments.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - MarkAguirreWrathofGod - 06-14-2024
I still believe in Josh. I feel like he has made some nice strides defensively in the second half of the season. He has had some nice moments in the playoffs. He hit a handful of fairly clutch 3’s for us.
Would like to see him clean up his ballhandling and develop some in between game ala Austin Reaves. I’m always comparing the two because I think he’s not far off offensively. Needs to learn to change speeds (still!) and then he will get to the line with more frequency. Time for Shamgodd to earn his $. Get this boy some handles!
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Smitty - 06-14-2024
I was the #1 Brunson fan. I was the #1 PJ Washington fan. I’ve been the #1 Green fan. If I’m wrong on Green, 2 out of 3 isn’t bad… but I believe he has all the tools and has shown enough improvement each year to make me think he’s a perfect compliment to Luka.
He’s been here a while so people are ready to move on from him but the kid is 23 years old. I’d hate if the Mavs traded him but I’d understand it because they’ll want to make the over the top move this off-season, coming off a Finals run.
The contracts to make that happen are THJ, Maxi, Green. It is what it is but I hope he’s a Mav next year.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - KillerLeft - 06-14-2024
(06-14-2024, 07:07 PM)Smitty Wrote: I was the #1 Brunson fan. I was the #1 PJ Washington fan. I’ve been the #1 Green fan. If I’m wrong on Green, 2 out of 3 isn’t bad… but I believe he has all the tools and has shown enough improvement each year to make me think he’s a perfect compliment to Luka.
He’s been here a while so people are ready to move on from him but the kid is 23 years old. I’d hate if the Mavs traded him but I’d understand it because they’ll want to make the over the top move this off-season, coming off a Finals run.
The contracts to make that happen are THJ, Maxi, Green. It is what it is but I hope he’s a Mav next year.
He for sure has the tools, and you glimpse them in games like tonight’s.
It’s just super frustrating that it hasn’t translated into anything remotely consistent. Even his role isn’t consistent, which tells us two different coaches haven’t figured out what to make of him, either.
It’s not a done deal and yeah, he’s still super young, but the problem is that he earns more money than the role he has earned is worth. I worded that carefully. We can disagree about whether or not he deserves more of a role, but if Kidd doesn’t want to give it to him, what we think doesn’t matter.
I’m still pulling for him, but I don’t blame people a bit for being frustrated.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Smitty - 06-14-2024
(06-14-2024, 08:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: He for sure has the tools, and you glimpse them in games like tonight’s.
It’s just super frustrating that it hasn’t translated into anything remotely consistent. Even his role isn’t consistent, which tells us two different coaches haven’t figured out what to make of him, either.
It’s not a done deal and yeah, he’s still super young, but the problem is that he earns more money than the role he has earned is worth. I worded that carefully. We can disagree about whether or not he deserves more of a role, but if Kidd doesn’t want to give it to him, what we think doesn’t matter.
I’m still pulling for him, but I don’t blame people a bit for being frustrated.
I agree with that. Especially the part you worded carefully. I just know that he’s a player. I knew it with Brunson in the same way. Maybe I’m wrong, I’ve been wrong once. But I see something…
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Chicagojk - 06-14-2024
(06-14-2024, 08:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: He for sure has the tools, and you glimpse them in games like tonight’s.
It’s just super frustrating that it hasn’t translated into anything remotely consistent. Even his role isn’t consistent, which tells us two different coaches haven’t figured out what to make of him, either.
It’s not a done deal and yeah, he’s still super young, but the problem is that he earns more money than the role he has earned is worth. I worded that carefully. We can disagree about whether or not he deserves more of a role, but if Kidd doesn’t want to give it to him, what we think doesn’t matter.
I’m still pulling for him, but I don’t blame people a bit for being frustrated.
I reallly enjoy seeing players work hard and gradually get better and then one day it just works.
What is frustrating with Josh is I thought I saw that jump at least twice only to see it not be sustainable. The thing is I think he has that in him. I just thought we would see it more often by now.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - mvossman - 06-15-2024
(06-14-2024, 10:14 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: I reallly enjoy seeing players work hard and gradually get better and then one day it just works.
What is frustrating with Josh is I thought I saw that jump at least twice only to see it not be sustainable. The thing is I think he has that in him. I just thought we would see it more often by now.
It seems like both times it was derailed by an elbow injury
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - DanSchwartzgan - 06-15-2024
Interesting trend? Josh has played more minutes than DJJ in each of the last two games.
DJJ
Game Minutes +/-
1 28:47 -12
2 32:07 -5
3 15:47 -6
4 16:44 +16
Green
Game Minutes +/-
1 20:16 -5
2 13:40 -10
3 22:14 +3
4 18:15 +16
Green was in the finishing lineup for all 3 quarters last night that included rotation players. He played all but the last 9 seconds of the second quarter and stayed in the final 15:49 of the game Tuesday night. DJJ hasn't been in foul trouble in either game. Ending halves tends to be significant. An adjustment? Or is Kidd just sticking with something that seems to be working.
On another unrelated note.
In playoff games we've lost, Lively has been - 7.8 on average (plus one inactive game). Losses have included some stinkers including games of -19, -13, -15 and -15.
In playoff games we've won, Lively has been +11.8 on average. Wins have included some incredibly good performances including games of +24, +18, +16, +22, +26, +19 and +20.
So goes DLIII, so goes....
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - mvossman - 06-15-2024
(06-15-2024, 01:46 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: Interesting trend? Josh has played more minutes than DJJ in each of the last two games.
DJJ
Game Minutes +/-
1 28:47 -12
2 32:07 -5
3 15:47 -6
4 16:44 +16
Green
Game Minutes +/-
1 20:16 -5
2 13:40 -10
3 22:14 +3
4 18:15 +16
Green was in the finishing lineup for all 3 quarters last night that included rotation players. He played all but the last 9 seconds of the second quarter and stayed in the final 15:49 of the game Tuesday night. DJJ hasn't been in foul trouble in either game. Ending halves tends to be significant. An adjustment? Or is Kidd just sticking with something that seems to be working.
On another unrelated note.
In playoff games we've lost, Lively has been - 7.8 on average (plus one inactive game). Losses have included some stinkers including games of -19, -13, -15 and -15.
In playoff games we've won, Lively has been +11.8 on average. Wins have included some incredibly good performances including games of +24, +18, +16, +22, +26, +19 and +20.
So goes DLIII, so goes....
Green has been the only non big bench player who has been able to provide rotational level minutes in the playoffs. I’m still holding out hope that we can keep both him and DJJ without paying a first to dump Timmy.
RE: THE GREEN MACHINE: The Subtle Emergence of Josh Green - Chicagojk - 06-15-2024
(06-15-2024, 03:22 PM)mvossman Wrote: Green has been the only non big bench player who has been able to provide rotational level minutes in the playoffs. I’m still holding out hope that we can keep both him and DJJ without paying a first to dump Timmy.
That would be ideal. I just don't like moving a good asset to get off Timmy. We have few assets to offer and will need them either for future trades or valuable young & cheap players.
Maybe a team will take Hardaway and a pick this offseason for something we actually desire. Although maybe that happens at the trade deadline next year. Hardaway wouldn't be in my plans next year even if he was here. He would be sent to Fournier island. But could you get a PJ type player back with his expring and a future first?
I want to highlight that young and cheap talent should not be brushed aside. There is obvious risk picking in the 20's, but it is going to be vital to keep that pipeline solid moving forward with the higher end contracts we have. I really feel that is where teams like PHX, MIL and others get lost in the woods.