Mavs 113, Rockets 100

[mavsluvr]

Oh, I only meant until KP returns.  IMO, we absolutely need that kind of length on the floor, and not a small ball lineup.

Ah. Agree that the team needs to be able to field big/long lineups. 

I really like Willie, enjoy watching him, and appreciate his athleticism, mobility, floor-running, vertical threat, and good attitude. Having said that, I will be surprised if he takes on any kind of major role going forward. Of course, if he consistently turns in impactful performances like this one, he will. But he still seems like he doesn't know or understand the system very well, is inconsistent defensively, and has a habit of making questionable decisions. I think there is a good chance that his role will diminish substantially once KP returns. 

This is not meant to bash Willie. He has apparently been working very hard, and if he is getting better, I'm all for him and hope he succeeds. Since we are talking about what the team is likely to do,  this is just a view on that. I could certainly be wrong. He was terrific to watch in this game.

[mavsluvr]

It's honestly quite baffling. Does Tim's ego really need that kind of massaging? No RC, a starter is someone who starts the game, not coming off the bench after 5 minutes.

I didn't get the impression that RC intended specifically to massage Tim's ego. The statement was made in response to a question about Tim coming off the bench, and I took it more as making it clear to the media that the lineup move was not intended as some type of demotion of Tim. I doubt that Hardaway needed it, but then again, who doesn't like a Valentine?

[SleepingHero]

Honestly, I think that in Carlisle parlance, "starter" means a guy who plays starter minutes and is likely to be on the floor at the ends of games, whether he is on the floor at the initial horn or not.

I understand but we have a clear definition of a starter. The first 5 players to start the game are starters. Self explanatory. Playing "starter minutes" does not effectively mean you're a starter. It should also be said that denoting someone a starter or not doesn't necessarily run parallel to how big of an impact that player's role is (I.E JET, Manu, etc). 

But if THJ is coming off the bench, he's not a starter and Carlisle dancing around it to either assuage THJ's ego or stop a headline is annoying. 

His wallet certainly does.  Saying out loud that Tim is considered a "starter" and will get starter minutes is a signal that Carlisle gets the financial ramifications of any perception that THJ's role has been marginalized.  It is a BIG deal...like $10-$15 million BIG.  

And I really think this is the only reason Carlisle isn't saying the quiet part out loud. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Do we really think the people making roster choices (I.E dolling out contracts) can't see through that kind of speak? That just because the head coach said "He's still a starter!", that they will somehow be fooled into tossing THJ an extra 10-15 mil? 

No. THJ's play, the 2nd units play, and because of this roster's construction, has necessitated THJ to move to the bench. If THJ balls out as a 6th man, he will get paid regardless. If THJ was playing well with the starters, then he wouldn't have been moved to the bench, and something else would've happened. Carlisle saying something factually untrue doesn't change any of this and it annoys me that he did that as if we are all dupes.

[KillerLeft]

But if THJ is coming off the bench, he's not a starter and Carlisle dancing around it to either assuage THJ's ego or stop a headline is annoying. 

Are you 100% sure this is what he's doing? I mean, he might literally be saying that THJ will start most games.

[SleepingHero]

I took it more as making it clear to the media that the lineup move was not intended as some type of demotion of Tim.

But it is a demotion. THJ as a starter was averaging 14.8 ppg on 39.2/32.7/61. THJ is a scorer. That's his job. He wasn't doing that. It remains to be seen how consistent he can be coming off the bench. 


Does that mean no one else sucked as a starter? No of course not. Richardson has left a lot to be desired so far on the offensive end. Powell. Luka. DFS. They all have their issues. 

But there is a reason why THJ got moved to the bench and Richardson wasn't.

[fifteenth]

I guess that could be. 

Did you enjoy the broadcast?

I did. You're doing a great job of working around the pandemic professionally. I know you're not in the road arenas, so far, by I haven't really noticed a difference.

Wait. Hold up. Did we figure out who mavsluvr is? Does he have very large vocal chords?

[SleepingHero]

Are you 100% sure this is what he's doing? I mean, he might literally be saying that THJ will start most games.

I mean you never know what RC is thinking regarding lineups. The only sure bet is that for now there isn't a defined starting lineup and that THJ could eventually be back. 

But we've had success with THJ coming off the bench, and the starting lineup as a whole looked better when DFS moved to the 3, and 2 bigs were put in place. 

I don't see THJ beating out Richardson in that case, which means THJ is a 6th man. But we'll see. As of now THJ isn't a clear cut starter, and he didn't start last game. And Carlisle saying "Tim is a starter no matter if he actually doesn't start the game" is just a factually untrue statement.

---

Wait. Hold up. Did we figure out who mavsluvr is? Does he have very large vocal chords?

Yep. He's Derek Harper.

[mavsluvr]

I understand but we have a clear definition of a starter. The first 5 players to start the game are starters. Self explanatory. Playing "starter minutes" does not effectively mean you're a starter. It should also be said that denoting someone a starter or not doesn't necessarily run parallel to how big of an impact that player's role is (I.E JET, Manu, etc). 

But if THJ is coming off the bench, he's not a starter and Carlisle dancing around it to either assuage THJ's ego or stop a headline is annoying. 




And I really think this is the only reason Carlisle isn't saying the quiet part out loud. But at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Do we really think the people making roster choices (I.E dolling out contracts) can't see through that kind of speak? That just because the head coach said "He's still a starter!", that they will somehow be fooled into tossing THJ an extra 10-15 mil? 

No. THJ's play, the 2nd units play, and because of this roster's construction, has necessitated THJ to move to the bench. If THJ balls out as a 6th man, he will get paid regardless. If THJ was playing well with the starters, then he wouldn't have been moved to the bench, and something else would've happened. Carlisle saying something factually untrue doesn't change any of this and it annoys me that he did that as if we are all dupes.

These are some interesting points, and THJ's ongoing role is a topic worth discussing. 

As far as this particular statement goes, we might be overthinking it a little. It wasn't a prepared, carefully wordsmithed  speech, just an off-the-cuff defense of his player. Honestly, I think it was an attempt to refute the idea that the change somehow meant that Tim was not playing well with the starters. He was on the floor at the end of the game, alongside the other starters.

[mavsluvr]

But it is a demotion. THJ as a starter was averaging 14.8 ppg on 39.2/32.7/61. THJ is a scorer. That's his job. He wasn't doing that. It remains to be seen how consistent he can be coming off the bench. 

But there is a reason why THJ got moved to the bench and Richardson wasn't.

I guess we'll have to see whether it was a demotion. I question that we can make that leap. He played the third most minutes after Luka and Doe-Doe, and was part of the closing unit. 

If you want to make the argument that he is not a starter if he isn't on the floor in the first four minutes, you are of course right in that literal sense. But you seem to be arguing that Tim is some sort of lesser player because of that. It's like saying that there is a reason Jason Terry came off the bench -- because he wasn't as good as DeShawn Stevenson. 

Maybe I am not fully understanding your point. Would be happy to be enlightened!

[mavsluvr]

Haha yes, it's me - thank you! Apparently, the pandemic has its upsides after all, I got a little spare time on my hands. I have been watching all the games but due to time shift, it's really hard to come around and post my opinions here, since I sometimes watch them with a delay of one or two days and my thoughts are even less relevant than usual, I fear lol.

Still really much appreciate your recaps and all of the ongoing discussions and I will try my best to not become a full-tilme-lurker.

Great, look forward to hearing from you!

[KillerLeft]

And Carlisle saying "Tim is a starter no matter if he actually doesn't start the game" is just a factually untrue statement.

He's basically saying THJ is of a starter level quality. I know you don't believe that, but I don't think he's lying, meaning I think he does mean the comment sincerely. I'm not sure why it's bothering you so much. What am I missing?

[Dahlsim]

I mean you never know what RC is thinking regarding lineups. The only sure bet is that for now there isn't a defined starting lineup and that THJ could eventually be back. 

But we've had success with THJ coming off the bench, and the starting lineup as a whole looked better when DFS moved to the 3, and 2 bigs were put in place. 

I don't see THJ beating out Richardson in that case, which means THJ is a 6th man. But we'll see. As of now THJ isn't a clear cut starter, and he didn't start last game. And Carlisle saying "Tim is a starter no matter if he actually doesn't start the game" is just a factually untrue statement.

---

Yep. He's Derek Harper.

Hmm, ML.  So why so much interest in your secret identity lately?  

Can't we just let Superman be Superman?  
Anyway, no one can tell he's really Clark Kent without the glasses right? 

[SleepingHero]

But you seem to be arguing that Tim is some sort of lesser player because of that. It's like saying that there is a reason Jason Terry came off the bench -- because he wasn't as good as DeShawn Stevenson. 

It should also be said that denoting someone a starter or not doesn't necessarily run parallel to how big of an impact that player's role is (I.E JET, Manu, etc). 

I am not arguing that at all. Quite the opposite. Being a starter doesn't inherently mean you're a better player than someone else on a team. 

What I am arguing is perverting the literal definition of a starter is wrong and annoying. If THJ does not start, he is not a starter. Doesn't matter how many minutes he plays. Whether RC wants to appease THJ either financially or to stroke his ego, his statement was wrong.

All I want is what works the best for the team. So far we've seen THJ have a great game coming off the bench. If it continues then good. He won't be a starter, but if his role is working then does it matter? No. 

It only matters if the player thinks it matters. I was listening to KOC on the Ringer. He said after the Lakers traded for Schroeder, that Schroeder did not want to come off the bench. I forgot his podcast partner, but he asked him why would Schroeder not want to continue to be a 6MOY candidate? And KOC goes, well try and think of it like a player. There are 30 teams. Only 5 starters for each. If you start, that means you're 1 of 150. Maybe Dennis wants to be back to being 1 of those 150. 

Forgot the podcast name but that was a rough summary. Overall the designation of a starter usually only matters to players who aren't stars. And when taken it in that context, the comment from RC screams that he's trying to appease THJ into a bench role.

[SleepingHero]

I'm not sure why it's bothering you so much. What am I missing?

Honestly I woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Also I'm tired of people (not anyone around here) playing with definitions to fit their narrative. Even on a small scale. We get things like what happened yesterday when we do that.

Maybe I'm overreacting over a vague RC comment. Probably I am. But I guess I'm lashing out at a perceived smaller scale of what's been going on in America. That's why I'm being so matter of fact of what a starter is and what isn't. Not even getting into roles or whatever. 

I need a nap.

[mavsluvr]

I am not arguing that at all. Quite the opposite. Being a starter doesn't inherently mean you're a better player than someone else on a team. 

What I am arguing is perverting the literal definition of a starter is wrong and annoying. If THJ does not start, he is not a starter. Doesn't matter how many minutes he plays. Whether RC wants to appease THJ either financially or to stroke his ego, his statement was wrong.

All I want is what works the best for the team. So far we've seen THJ have a great game coming off the bench. If it continues then good. He won't be a starter, but if his role is working then does it matter? No. 

It only matters if the player thinks it matters. I was listening to KOC on the Ringer. He said after the Lakers traded for Schroeder, that Schroeder did not want to come off the bench. I forgot his podcast partner, but he asked him why would Schroeder not want to continue to be a 6MOY candidate? And KOC goes, well try and think of it like a player. There are 30 teams. Only 5 starters for each. If you start, that means you're 1 of 150. Maybe Dennis wants to be back to being 1 of those 150. 

Forgot the podcast name but that was a rough summary. Overall the designation of a starter usually only matters to players who aren't stars. And when taken it in that context, the comment from RC screams that he's trying to appease THJ into a bench role.

Thanks for explaining. I had taken it that you thought the lineup change was an indication that Rick no longer thinks highly of Tim, and wants to camouflage that fact from Tim/the media. My bad. 

If he does become a sixth man, that is a super-important position, usually much more important than whatever lower-minute player is there in the sixth man's place at the start of the game. I agree that other general managers around the league aren't likely to be bumfuzzled by the semantics. If Tim becomes the sixth man, I will refer to him as such, and not as a starter. But I'm going to give Rick a pass on this one misnomer, as I believe that his actual intent was to say that Tim is a starter-minutes player on this team. If time proves me wrong, I will do my best to self-correct!

---

Hmm, ML.  So why so much interest in your secret identity lately?  

Can't we just let Superman be Superman?  
Anyway, no one can tell he's really Clark Kent without the glasses right? 

hahahahaha, good one

[mtrot]

BTW, folks, I think "don't ask, don't tell" would be a good approach here!

[KillerLeft]

BTW, folks, I think "don't ask, don't tell" would be a good approach here!