Terry vs Maledon

[Playmaker]

In part, yes.

But, it came out later that Presti didn't quite understand another option that could've solved the problem without giving up Harden. I would say understanding the CBA and constantly doing creative things with contracts (like Nelson does) is another way by which we can judge GM's, nay? 

And, while Presti drafted Harden, it's pretty clear in hindsight that even he (they) didn't know what they had. Morey did, and made the great move to acquire him. Looking back, why weren't the Thunder in the process of reorganizing around Harden as a core piece (along with Durrant) instead of bringing him off the bench and ultimately deciding he was the most expendable of the three? Isn't it crystal clear by now that Westbrook was the (relative) dud? 

And, let's say we think the OKC small market problems are holding him back (they probably are). Why hasn't a better franchise in a larger market saved him yet? Morey is so good he can literally run his team into the ground on a blockbuster deal he doesn't want to make, bail on the fallout of that and then get hired in an even better city with an even more storied franchise weeks later. If Presti was available next summer, are we sure he'd even be offered another shop, or do we think he'd have to work under someone for a while, first?

My opinion is that he's a small town GM for a small town team. He does some things really well, but really, he's got his job not because he's the best, but because he's one of the best who you can get for a cheap price.

The Lakers were after Presti when they had a GM opening.  So were the Knicks, as well as several others.   Would leave OKC to work in that enviroment and with those owners?

[KillerLeft]

The Lakers were after Presti when they had a GM opening.  So were the Knicks, as well as several others.   Would leave OKC to work in that enviroment and with those owners?

Knicks, no. 

Lakers, YES.

[StepBackJay]

I like Terry just fine. He is clearly a guy they want to be Seth's long term replacement. 

Kevin O'Connor loved Terry pre draft. I think for the spot we got him I am pretty happy. Terry might not get much PT this year which is fine. I would not overreact to one guy. I expected Terry to be a project. This year the guards off the bench will be Brunson and Burke.

[JamesConway]

I would have went with Terry > Maledon, too, but looking back at the draft both were projected pretty equally in the 20+ range. We’ll see who ends up being better.

I think Terry wasn’t utilized the right way last night. Imo he is - just like Seth - more of a finisher from the perimeter than an initiator. For instance I’d love to see him alongside one of Burke/Brunson where he could pick his spots more carefully instead of having to bring up the ball the court/etc. He’s an undersized SG basically, not really a PG I’d argue.

[KillerLeft]

This year the guards off the bench will be Brunson and Burke.

Right, and this would be the case with Desmond Bane or Maledon, too.

[Kammrath]

Some thoughts on this:

1) Thanks for the OP, I like these kind of conversations and those who don't like them can abstain, they don't need to complain and pester the OP.

2) This conversation in no way means "FIRE DONNIE." That's ridiculous, but it is fair for us to discuss and critique what the Mavs have done.

3) I too evaluated Maledon as the better prospect than Terry, I had him 6th on my Big Mavs Board (right behind Tyler Bey at 5th). I was incredibly disappointed the Mavs did not take him at 31 (or 18 for that matter).

4) I think Maledon's ceiling would have been as a back court mate with Luka, as a starting, secondary playmaker.

5) I did not have Tyrell on my top 15 Mavs prospects because of concerns over how his small wingspan would limit his offensive and defensive effectiveness in the NBA.

6) I liked what I saw from Tyrell last night. He looked more at home than I thought he would (I had "bust" expectations for him before the draft). Him taking the charge on D was HUGE for me, because he is going to have to be a "feisty" and "annoying" defender to stay on the court in the NBA (but he HAS to get better fighting over screens with more urgency and giving a crap and not giving up on them). I think his ceiling is as a bench role player, back up combo guard (similar to what Burke is for this team right now). That is solid for the #31 pick....but if Maledon becomes the NBA starter I think he will, that is a big MISS by the Mavs scouting and evaluation (especially because they should have a better handle on the international talent than most teams).

[Playmaker]

Knicks, no. 

Lakers, YES.

So you would be fine with Linda Rambus and her husband being involved with basketball decision?  And them influencing the owner in telling you how you should run the team?

The only reason Rob Pelinka got the job was bc he was Kobe's agent and had some working experience with circus of that organization.

[KillerLeft]

So you would be fine with Linda Rambus and her husband being involved with basketball decision?  And them influencing the owner in telling you how you should run the team?

The only reason Rob Pelinka got the job was bc he was Kobe's agent and had some working experience with circus of that organization.

I'd say that, to a certain extent, this happens with EVERY NBA team. It's just more public in some places than others. 

I believe that our own Mark Cuban is likely one of the most shameless interfering influences, but again, I doubt there's a single team that's run the way we all think it should be - with the owner shutting up and writing checks. And frankly, I doubt any of us could force ourselves to run a team that way if we were somehow able to acquire one, either. 

So, in the context of your earlier question, if A) we're going to claim that the small market approach is holding Presti back and B) it's true that the Lakers had interest in hiring him away (taking your word for that) then yes, I absolutely view that as a missed opportunity for him to move on to better things. 

Now, NY? I agree - You'd have to pay me a LOT to take that job, and I'm literally talking about myself in reality, not as some hypothetical, qualified GM. That's the Titanic.

[Playmaker]

I'd say that, to a certain extent, this happens with EVERY NBA team. It's just more public in some places than others. 

I believe that our own Mark Cuban is likely one of the most shameless interfering influences, but again, I doubt there's a single team that's run the way we all think it should be - with the owner shutting up and writing checks. And frankly, I doubt any of us could force ourselves to run a team that way if we were somehow able to acquire one, either. 

So, in the context of your earlier question, if A) we're going to claim that the small market approach is holding Presti back and B) it's true that the Lakers had interest in hiring him away (taking your word for that) then yes, I absolutely view that as a missed opportunity for him to move on to better things. 

Now, NY? I agree - You'd have to pay me a LOT to take that job, and I'm literally talking about myself in reality, not as some hypothetical, qualified GM. That's the Titanic.

Its one thing for the owner to have say on basketball decisions but the Lakers are well known to have too many former players involved in decision making.  That cultural is toxic to an outsider.  There is a reason why no active GM wanted to touch that job when it became open.  Hard to blame Presti for passing on that job.

Also, I'm not blaming a small market holding Presti back. I'm blaming Clay Bennet himself.  He could have easily paid the luxury tax for a chance at a title.  I think he realized it later after Durrant left when he actually paid the tax.

[dirkfansince1998]

The Mavs don't exactly have a history of evaluating talent well at the lower end of the first round.  Its why they treated the draft as an after thought for so many years and the they never seem to have young tradeable assets that the rest to league desires.  

If they routinely miss their evaluations something needs to change.  Whether that's the scouting department or Donnie changing his philosophy.  The Mavs have become slightly better over the years as they have now occasionally draft useful NBA players and not total busts (Shane Foster, Jared Cunningham, Nick Fezekaz, Moe Ager, ect)

Brunson is good role player for tbe Mavs but a case can be made that they missed that evaluation as well.  If the Mavs were looking to draft an PG, Devonte Graham would have been the better option.  Robinson from a pure talent perspective would have been better as well.

I think it is the opposite. The Mavs actually had solid scouting (especially when it comes to international prospects) but alway focused on win now moves. I spent enough time ranting about the post 2011 era so I won´t go into detail again.
Donnie clearly wanted Giannis but Cuban wanted to trade down. Again. You focus on the one guy (in this case guard) that might be better than Brunson. What about all those guys that were drafted in the 1st round. People need to realize that 2nd round guys or undrafted free agents rarely make it in the NBA. Getting a useful role player with a 2nd round pick is a win.
What about undrafted free agents? Maxi wasn´t a star in europe but the Mavs saw something that they really liked. Same for DFS. 23 year old prospect that went undrafted.

I agree that in the past the Mavs made some big mistakes when it comes to the draft and the value of picks. I absolutely hated that the Mavs did not even try to hit on a 2nd round pick. Satnam Singh was probably the worst of them. Cuban wasted a draft pick because he wanted to make some money in India.
In the last 2-3 years they tried and I am happy with the results.

Picks: Luka, Brunson, Bey, Green, Terry
Undrafted free agents: DFS, Kleber, Hinton
Gone: Roby, Reaves

We obviously don´t know how this years draft picks will perform but that´s a solid group of guys.

[Kammrath]

Roby

Roby actually looked relatively solid last night (7 pts, 11 rbds, 2 asts, 3 stls, 1 blk, but 5 TOs in 25 mins) starting for OKC. I am not sure the Mavs missed on their evaluation of him as badly as some say. It will be interesting if OKC can rehab his career.

[KillerLeft]

Also, I'm not blaming a small market holding Presti back, I'm blaming Clay Bennet himself.  He could have easily paid the luxury tax for a chance at a title.  I think he realized it later after Durrant left when he actually paid the tax.

Ok, but it's tough to view Presti as a victim in this situation, imo. He knew who he'd be working for when he took the job, right? I'm sure financial limitations were discussed at many points, both before and during the job. 

It's not like the luxury tax snuck up on them. Part of my point is that to be a SUCCESSFUL GM one must see these things coming ahead of time and navigate unsure waters with a sense of conservative purpose. I think Nelson has made some big errors, but he has always handled this - the actual high stakes part of the job - pretty damn well, imo. 

I'll give you another thought: while I agree that the draft isn't the best part of Nelson's game, I'd argue that he's far from being anywhere near BAD at it relative to many GM's. He has had more hits than misses, tbh. I'll agree that as an organization, they've undervalued the draft a bit too often. He's culpable in that, but honestly, one could argue that this is a top down part of their identity that starts with Cuban. 

Question: if Nelson was working for an extreme small market team, such as Minnesota or OKC, don't you think the draft would be more important to him by necessity? If so, don't you think he'd be better at it?

[Kammrath]

Some more thoughts:

1) I think the Mavs have shown GOOD scouting and evaluation the last few years.

2) I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt on their evals.

3) I think we as fans can still have fun and compare our own evals to theirs. 

4) The hidden part of evaluations is the behind the scenes, personal evaluation. I think sometimes the Mavs pass on talent because they don't like the personality/person with that talent (Schroder is an example recently who I LOVED from a talent standpoint but the Mavs did not like for personal reasons). So that is something to watch as well, that us fans have no access to for the most part.

[KillerLeft]

4) The hidden part of evaluations is the behind the scenes, personal evaluation. I think sometimes the Mavs pass on talent because they don't like the personality/person with that talent (Schroder is an example recently who I LOVED from a talent standpoint but the Mavs did not like for personal reasons). So that is something to watch as well, that us fans have no access to for the most part.

For sure. Rightfully so.

[speedkilz88]

I think it is the opposite. The Mavs actually had solid scouting (especially when it comes to international prospects) but alway focused on win now moves. I spent enough time ranting about the post 2011 era so I won´t go into detail again.
Donnie clearly wanted Giannis but Cuban wanted to trade down. Again. You focus on the one guy (in this case guard) that might be better than Brunson. What about all those guys that were drafted in the 1st round. People need to realize that 2nd round guys or undrafted free agents rarely make it in the NBA. Getting a useful role player with a 2nd round pick is a win.
What about undrafted free agents? Maxi wasn´t a star in europe but the Mavs saw something that they really liked. Same for DFS. 23 year old prospect that went undrafted.

I agree that in the past the Mavs made some big mistakes when it comes to the draft and the value of picks. I absolutely hated that the Mavs did not even try to hit on a 2nd round pick. Satnam Singh was probably the worst of them. Cuban wasted a draft pick because he wanted to make some money in India.
In the last 2-3 years they tried and I am happy with the results.

Picks: Luka, Brunson, Bey, Green, Terry
Undrafted free agents: DFS, Kleber, Hinton
Gone: Roby, Reaves

We obviously don´t know how this years draft picks will perform but that´s a solid group of guys.

None of these guys are in the NBA, it was just a really weak draft depth wise and the mavs knew it.

2 47 Artūras Gudaitis# C Lithuania Philadelphia 76ers (from New Orleans via Washington and L.A. Clippers)[L] Žalgiris Kaunas (Lithuania)
2 48 Dakari Johnson C United States Oklahoma City Thunder Kentucky (So.)
2 49 Aaron White# PF United States Washington Wizards Iowa (Sr.)
2 50 Marcus Eriksson# SG Sweden Atlanta Hawks (from Toronto)[M] FC Barcelona (Spain)
2 51 Tyler Harvey# PG United States Orlando Magic (from Chicago)[N] Eastern Washington (Jr.)
2 52 Satnam Singh Bhamara# C India Dallas Mavericks IMG Academy (Bradenton, Florida; HSPg.)
2 53 Sir'Dominic Pointer# SF United States Cleveland Cavaliers (from Portland via Chicago and Denver)[O] St. John's (Sr.)
2 54 Dani Díez# SF Spain Utah Jazz (from Cleveland,[P] traded to Portland)[i] Gipuzkoa Basket (Spain)
2 55 Cady Lalanne# PF Haiti San Antonio Spurs Massachusetts (Sr.)
2 56 Branden Dawson SF United States New Orleans Pelicans (from Memphis[Q], traded to L.A. Clippers)[j] Michigan State (Sr.)
2 57 Nikola Radičević# PG Serbia Denver Nuggets (from L.A. Clippers)[R] Baloncesto Sevilla (Spain)
2 58 J. P. Tokoto# SG/SF United States Philadelphia 76ers (from Houston)[I] North Carolina (Jr.)
2 59 Dimitrios Agravanis# PF Greece Atlanta Hawks Olympiacos (Greece)
2 60 Luka Mitrović# PF Serbia Philadelphia 76ers (from Golden State via Indiana)[S] Red Star Belgrade (Serbia)

[DanSchwartzgan]

I would have went with Terry > Maledon, too, but looking back at the draft both were projected pretty equally in the 20+ range. We’ll see who ends up being better.

I think Terry wasn’t utilized the right way last night. Imo he is - just like Seth - more of a finisher from the perimeter than an initiator. For instance I’d love to see him alongside one of Burke/Brunson where he could pick his spots more carefully instead of having to bring up the ball the court/etc. He’s an undersized SG basically, not really a PG I’d argue.

I think this is spot on.  He might look just slightly better than last night in a lineup next to Luka. 

With that said, we are a little thin at backup ball handler should Luka or Brunson go down.  It isn't the worst idea in the world to throw him into the deep end and see if he has any playmaking in him.  It is after all the preseason.  Of course, it is hard for a playoff team to count on anything from a second round pick in what would be his sophomore year.  If he's ready to play "the Burke role" a couple of years from now, that would be a huge victory.  Another contender for "the Burke role" might eventually be Hinton.  Good problem to have.

We have the makings of a really interesting bench, especially on nights when Burke is on.  I'm a little concerned about what happens on those Burke 1 for 10 nights.  I'm not sure where the O comes from among the remaining bench players on those nights.

[Kammrath]

I'm a little concerned about what happens on those Burke 1 for 10 nights.  I'm not sure where the O comes from among the remaining bench players on those nights.

Brunson can generate his own shot and shots for others very reliably IMO.

[Playmaker]

Ok, but it's tough to view Presti as a victim in this situation, imo. He knew who he'd be working for when he took the job, right? I'm sure financial limitations were discussed at many points, both before and during the job. 

It's not like the luxury tax snuck up on them. Part of my point is that to be a SUCCESSFUL GM one must see these things coming ahead of time and navigate unsure waters with a sense of conservative purpose. I think Nelson has made some big errors, but he has always handled this - the actual high stakes part of the job - pretty damn well, imo. 

I'll give you another thought: while I agree that the draft isn't the best part of Nelson's game, I'd argue that he's far from being anywhere near BAD at it relative to many GM's. He has had more hits than misses, tbh. I'll agree that as an organization, they've undervalued the draft a bit too often. He's culpable in that, but honestly, one could argue that this is a top down part of their identity that starts with Cuban. 

Question: if Nelson was working for an extreme small market team, such as Minnesota or OKC, don't you think the draft would be more important to him by necessity? If so, don't you think he'd be better at it?

Yes he has more margin for error being apart of the Mavs and the relationships primarily Mark has developed with agents over the years.  But no I don't think he would be a better evaluator of talent at the lower end of the draft.  

Through out his years of drafting for every Luka, Dirk, Josh Howard, ect there would be fifteen Justin Andersons, Moe Agers, Nick Fezekas, Jarred Cunningham, Shane Larkins, Shane Fosters, Nick Calathas, Amand Nevins.

Its always been too feast or famine with Donnie.  Donnie is like the baseball player known to be a homerun hitter but his batting like .200 when it comes to hitting.

[KillerLeft]

Through out his years of drafting for every Luka, Dirk, Josh Howard, ect there would be fifteen Justin Andersons, Moe Agers, Nick Fezekas, Jarred Cunningham, Shane Larkins, Shane Fosters, Nick Calathas, Amand Nevins.

Its always been too feast or famine with Donnie.  Donnie is like the baseball player known to be a homerun hitter but his batting like .200 when it comes to hitting.

Ok, so I totally agree with your assessment that it's "feast or famine." 

What I'm saying is that A) pretty much all GMs' track records are like that, even the universally respected ones, and B) if he were a small market GM that depended on the draft to improve (even when they're already pretty good) he'd get more ATTEMPTS to feast, just like all of those GM's do. 

I heard a podcast right after the bubble in which Tim Connelly (Nuggets GM) basically made the point that even the best GM's are going to be wrong more often than right when it comes to the draft. He's one of the good ones, too. 

Again, I'm not arguing that Nelson is an industry leader in draft evaluations, but that he's far from BAD at it. I also think that when you examine the WHOLE of his performance as a GM, and not just focus on late first, 2nd round draft picks, it's pretty clear that our team could do much, much worse. It's only my opinion, but I would absolutely prefer Nelson over Presti. No hesitation.

[dirkfansince1998]

Yes he has more margin for error being apart of the Mavs and the relationships Mark has primarily  developed over the years with agents.  But no I don't think he would be a better evaluator of talent at the lower end of the draft.  

Through out his years of drafting for every Luka, Dirk, Josh Howard, ect there would be fifteen Justin Andersons, Moe Agers, Nick Fezekas, Jarred Cunningham, Shane Larkins, Shane Fosters, Nick Calathas, Amand Nevins.

Its always been too feast or famine with Donnie.  Donnie is like the baseball player known to be a homerun hitter but his batting like .200 when it comes to hitting.

Not any different for any other franchise and most of the time Donnie only had late 1sts or 2nds to work with.

Example Celtics:

Post KG-Pierce trade they had 16 1st round and 12 2nd round picks. They nailed the lottery picks Smart, Tatum and Brown. Added two more solid players in the 1st round (Williams, Rozier). Semi Ojeleye and Abdel Nader are the only 2nd round picks that are still in the league and both are more or less garbage time players.