2020-2021 ROSTER TALK: Archived

[cow]

HUGE fan of that idea.

If nothing else it stops us from overpaying THJ in the long run.  Sign me up.

[Scott41theMavs]

HUGE fan of that idea.

I'm on board too.

[sterlingmallory]

They seem to be spinning this where Miami sees THJ is a fallback to other priorities. Still, it's interesting to see his name linked elsewhere. I wonder if this is the first sign that Dallas FA priorities are starting to shift.

https://www.fivereasonssports.com/news/t...-to-miami/

I agree priorities are shifting. If we still had Donnie and Rick I think THJ would have stayed. But we just brought in a couple "relationships" guys so it seems like the new FO is going to come out with something to prove and try to make a big splash. The only way to have significant cap space this summer is if THJ goes, so I think he goes.

[VintagePejav2]

Miami can easily decline the options on Iggy and Dragic to sign Hardaway into cap space. No need for them to execute a sign-and-trade and surrender an asset like Precious.

[Scott41theMavs]

Miami can easily decline the options on Iggy and Dragic to sign Hardaway into cap space. No need for them to execute a sign-and-trade and surrender an asset like Precious.

I thought the whole point of that article was that they don't have that level of flexibility for the size of contract THJ would be seeking. He isn't likely to be their only target either. I'm with you on the idea of it taking some awfully skilled negotiating to get them to include Precious along with Dragic, whom we would obviously want. They may try to foist something less palatable on us if needed for salary matching.

[omahen]

I thought the whole point of that article was that they don't have that level of flexibility for the size of contract THJ would be seeking. He isn't likely to be their only target either. I'm with you on the idea of it taking some awfully skilled negotiating to get them to include Precious along with Dragic, whom we would obviously want. They may try to foist something less palatable on us if needed for salary matching.

I fail to see why we would prefer to have Dragic than THJ. If you don't like THJ (or the money he wants), you let him walk and go for something better. I would be super pissed off, if Dragic would be our royal summer aquisition when max cap space is within reach. Basically a repeat of 2019.

[SleepingHero]

Here's my latest late night proposal trying to put together some of the recent trade ideas:

CHI: JRich+ Maxi Kleber
NYK: Jalen Brunson+ 2025 2nd round pick (DAL)
DAL: Lauri Markkanen+ Mitchell Robinson+ 2023 FRP (Least favorable between NYK and DAL). 

Mavs get their 2023 pick back that can free up it's use in trades. Borrowing Dan's idea where NYK can choose to swap the least favorable between the two picks and get a 2nd for their troubles. NYK also gets Brunson who they've been angling for at least a year and a half. Mavs swap a young prospect for another with Mitchell Robinson who had a down year filled with injuries but fits a great alongside Luka.

Mavs also go to Chicago and offer them a suitable cost controlled Lauri replacement along with some backcourt defense they've been looking for. Mavs get Lauri in a SNT.


Now all these moves set Dallas up perfectly to go big game hunting. The addition of Lauri and Robinson means KP is more than available to the highest bidder. Mavs also can create a superstar package built around the 3 picks+4 pick swaps the Nets paid for Brooklyn.

My fantasy trade is of course Dame, but another realistic one could also be CJ McCollum, who could fit extremely well still. A package built around KP and change for CJ and change could work well for both the Blazers and Mavs. 

Mavs can also find a way to turn THJ into a better bench. I LOVED the idea of sending THJ to Miami for Goran+Precious.

Luka/Goran
McCollum
DFS
Lauri
Robinson/Precious

I think that's a fantastic young roster that can compete right away. It actually mirrors the offseason ATL had a little bit. McCollum plays the secondary offensive creator like Bogdan. Robinson mirrors Capela in plenty of ways. Lauri can play an inside out game like John Collins. DFS= Deandre Hunter. Goran mirrors the old vet PG with experience akin to Lou Will. 

I like that team a lot.

[Mapka]

Here's my latest late night proposal trying to put together some of the recent trade ideas:

CHI: JRich+ Maxi Kleber
NYK: Jalen Brunson+ 2025 2nd round pick (DAL)
DAL: Lauri Markkanen+ Mitchell Robinson+ 2023 FRP (Least favorable between NYK and DAL). 

Mavs get their 2023 pick back that can free up it's use in trades. Borrowing Dan's idea where NYK can choose to swap the least favorable between the two picks and get a 2nd for their troubles. NYK also gets Brunson who they've been angling for at least a year and a half. Mavs swap a young prospect for another with Mitchell Robinson who had a down year filled with injuries but fits a great alongside Luka.

Mavs also go to Chicago and offer them a suitable cost controlled Lauri replacement along with some backcourt defense they've been looking for. Mavs get Lauri in a SNT.


Now all these moves set Dallas up perfectly to go big game hunting. The addition of Lauri and Robinson means KP is more than available to the highest bidder. Mavs also can create a superstar package built around the 3 picks+4 pick swaps the Nets paid for Brooklyn.

My fantasy trade is of course Dame, but another realistic one could also be CJ McCollum, who could fit extremely well still. A package built around KP and change for CJ and change could work well for both the Blazers and Mavs. 

Mavs can also find a way to turn THJ into a better bench. I LOVED the idea of sending THJ to Miami for Goran+Precious.

Luka/Goran
McCollum
DFS
Lauri
Robinson/Precious

I think that's a fantastic young roster that can compete right away. It actually mirrors the offseason ATL had a little bit. McCollum plays the secondary offensive creator like Bogdan. Robinson mirrors Capela in plenty of ways. Lauri can play an inside out game like John Collins. DFS= Deandre Hunter. Goran mirrors the old vet PG with experience akin to Lou Will. 

I like that team a lot.

Sry, to me that is a team, that misses the playoffs in the West.

And to build a team, that misses the playoffs around Luka is a hard task.

We have a chance to keep what we have and add a serious piece, instead we use all our assets to downgrade every position.

Yes, we can argue about McC, but next to Luka THJ is at least worth the same and a lot cheaper.

Lauri is a broken mans KP. Robinson lost his place to NNoel.
Dragic plays less than JJ Reddick.

[SleepingHero]

Sry, to me that is a team, that misses the playoffs in the West.

I respectfully disagree.

I take it you're not a fan of any of those proposed players, but your takes of them are about as negative of a portrait as you can make.

CJ is not just THJ. McCollum has quietly been a top 10 SG in the NBA for the last 6 years. He's been the biggest all-star snub for a long time. Next to Luka he'd shine much like THJ. I don't see how that's a downgrade. Both are horrid defenders, but CJ has the added benefit of being able to create his own offense a bit more efficiently than THJ.

Lauri a broken mans KP? I suppose you can call it that. I see a reclamation project. He fills basically all that we want from KP at a fraction of the cost. He's a lethal shooter as it gets, and we're only 2 years removed of Lauri averaging close to 20ppg being a 2nd option. I think Luka would help bring out the best in Lauri and help him get back to where he was. He'd get almost all of the open shots Maxi would get and I don't see how he'd fail. 

Robinson lost his place to Nerlens only because he broke his foot. Make no mistake Robinson was one of the most underrated centers in the NBA and his defensive impact was well documented. He's also a incredibly long dude that has hops. Luka NEEDS an elite rim roller. Robinson can fill that role extremely well. He shot nearly 75% from the field last year which is unheard of. 

Dragic does not play less than Redick and he showed he can still contribute where it matters most (averaged 16ppg in the playoffs) . Plus don't discount his vet leadership and past chemistry with Luka. 

I know I wrote a wall of text but I'm doubtful of your claim that this team would miss the playoffs in the west. I see almost every piece an upgrade.

McCollum>THJ
Bench of Goran+Precious>> Brunson+Powell
Lauri+Robinson combined> KP+Maxi

[Mapka]

I respectfully disagree.

I take it you're not a fan of any of those proposed players, but your takes of them are about as negative of a portrait as you can make.

CJ is not just THJ. McCollum has quietly been a top 10 SG in the NBA for the last 6 years. He's been the biggest all-star snub for a long time. Next to Luka he'd shine much like THJ. I don't see how that's a downgrade. Both are horrid defenders, but CJ has the added benefit of being able to create his own offense a bit more efficiently than THJ.

Lauri a broken mans KP? I suppose you can call it that. I see a reclamation project. He fills basically all that we want from KP at a fraction of the cost. He's a lethal shooter as it gets, and we're only 2 years removed of Lauri averaging close to 20ppg being a 2nd option. I think Luka would help bring out the best in Lauri and help him get back to where he was. He'd get almost all of the open shots Maxi would get and I don't see how he'd fail. 

Robinson lost his place to Nerlens only because he broke his foot. Make no mistake Robinson was one of the most underrated centers in the NBA and his defensive impact was well documented. He's also a incredibly long dude that has hops. Luka NEEDS an elite rim roller. Robinson can fill that role extremely well. He shot nearly 75% from the field last year which is unheard of. 

Dragic does not play less than Redick and he showed he can still contribute where it matters most (averaged 16ppg in the playoffs) . Plus don't discount his vet leadership and past chemistry with Luka. 

I know I wrote a wall of text but I'm doubtful of your claim that this team would miss the playoffs in the west. I see almost every piece an upgrade.

McCollum>THJ
Bench of Goran+Precious>> Brunson+Powell
Lauri+Robinson combined> KP+Maxi

Thanks for being objectiv.

Your at least as positiv as I am negativ.
But fine I will just act as we meet in the middle and call it a wash.
If we don't do it we have a chance to add someone like
DeRozan, Conley, Lowry, Dinwiddie or just Dragic.

And we totally disagree about McCollum - he plays next to Dame, who is at Lukas level as an offensive player and they are worse together than Luka and THJ. And I can't see how this is on their supporting cast or coach.

[DanSchwartzgan]

 
From my vantage point, everything points to DeRozan.  He is a big name respected "star".  He is unlikely to stay on his current team.  He does not have any huge rumors going somewhere else.  He is young enough that production may not drop off for a couple of years (especially given his style of play).  He fits Cuban's recent statements as someone that can provide Luka "help".  He has ties to Nico.  He gives the Mavs their three "stars" with Luka/DeRozan/KP.  

The real question to me is if we bring in DeRozan, how do we do it?  Do we simply sign him straight up?  In that case THJ is gone (which is probably less of a concern to the new regime).  You would have roughly the MLE in cap to spend on a desperately needed 3&D guy (maybe Green?).  Another option would be to S&T for a package that the Spurs would prefer to cap space.  Maybe JRich/Powell/Brunson?  Powell and Brunson are other guys the new regime might be more willing to let go (they also seem like Spurs kind of guys).  That trade allows you to keep THJ and spend the MLE, or have roughly 22 mil in cap space.

Another possibility is if they feel they need to move on from KP, an S&T for DeRozan could make a lot of sense.  At that point they have the cap to go get Holmes and maybe Norman Powell (who would be perfect as the floor spacing point of attack defender and might be ready to get out of the shit show in Portland).

I'm actually not a fan of DeRozan the player or the fit with Luka, but I am resigned to this being by far the most likely off season move.  I don't think that team can truly contend due to lack of defense, but they are probably more likely to advance in playoffs, and potentially more attractive to other players in the future.

I really liked this post.  I've kind of blown off the "KP for space" or "KP for S&T FA" deals preferring to look for teams that need KP and have assets we might want.  Why would I trade KP for DeRozan when I can just sign DeRozan?  But, there is a new sheriff in town and who knows what they might do with space. We also don't know what system we are going to run offensively.

In most deals where we trade KP without getting back a center, the automatic go-to is Holmes.  I'm a fan.  But he's $14-$18mm.  If we are dealing with SA, why not just take back Poeltl for about half of that.  Other than that little floater Holmes has, they are very similar.  Good and bad at almost exactly the same things.  Poeltl has the 37th highest DWS and 23rd highest DBPM in the league.  The Austrian native grades out as a slightly better interior defender than Holmes and turns 26 at the start of next season.  In 1,215 minutes where Poeltl and DD played together, SA had O/D ratings of 113.4/112.1 for a net of 1.3.  Their most used lineup that included JP/DD with Murray, White and Johnson was 117.9/111.9 for a net of 6.0.  In fact, as long as you kept JP/DD on the floor with any two of those guys, things went well.  So, there is an offensive scheme that works just fine with two non 3 point shooters and it isn't like Murray, White and Johnson are offensive juggernauts or even good floor spreaders themselves.

For $8.75mm you basically have your version of Zubac.  Any serious contender is going to need a guy like that to handle Ayton, Valenciunas, Towns, Embiid, Nurkic, Adams and Jokic.  You don't need that kind of big body interior presence every night, but when you do...you really do.  SA would presumably start KP at C, moving Poeltl to the bench.  The relationship with SA was already strained a bit as they played hardball with him when he was restricted last summer.  BTW, KP doesn't necessarily have to land in SA.  We are a viable threat to sign DeRozan outright.  Once mutual interest between Dallas and DeRozan is established, we work from there.  Maybe it is KP to SA.  Maybe it is KP to any of the half dozen other teams we've discussed and the assets we get from GS or Washington or Charlotte end up in SA.  It doesn't have to be equal value.  It just has to be good enough to motivate the Spurs to send Poeltl in the deal with S&T DeRozan.

I'm thinking you just keep DD at about his current $27.7mm salary.  Poeltl is $8.75mm and you sent out KP (and maybe WCS as injury insurance?).  If you do the latter, there is $30.5mm worth of space without JRich and $19.9mm with JRich.  You have Luka, DeRozan, Poeltl and DFS starting at this point with all sorts of options to add one more starter at any position other than C (plus some high level bench help).  You can throw the full max at Collins.  You can split the $30mm between Markannen and Danny Green (you need shooters at PF, does the defense of Poeltl make Markkanen more acceptable?).  You can play DFS/DeRozan at PF and focus on wings like THJ (probably not enough D) or Ball or N. Powell or Trent Jr. or Fournier or Graham.  You'd then use the rest of the money to finish out your Powell/Maxi/Green/Brunson bench.  I've not even started to contemplate S&T opportunities with THJ or JRich.  I'm not a fan of the deals where we send off half of our team.  This is relatively simple...KP and WCS and then make a decision about working over or under the cap depending on what you do with THJ.  You are turning KP into two starters and still have max money for Collins or plenty of money to add two players instead of the one near-max guy.

[Kammrath]

take back Poeltl

Totally in on that.

[Chicagojk]

I really liked this post.  I've kind of blown off the "KP for space" or "KP for S&T FA" deals preferring to look for teams that need KP and have assets we might want.  Why would I trade KP for DeRozan when I can just sign DeRozan?  But, there is a new sheriff in town and who knows what they might do with space. We also don't know what system we are going to run offensively.

In most deals where we trade KP without getting back a center, the automatic go-to is Holmes.  I'm a fan.  But he's $14-$18mm.  If we are dealing with SA, why not just take back Poeltl for about half of that.  Other than that little floater Holmes has, they are very similar.  Good and bad at almost exactly the same things.  Poeltl has the 37th highest DWS and 23rd highest DBPM in the league.  The Austrian native grades out as a slightly better interior defender than Holmes and turns 26 at the start of next season.  In 1,215 minutes where Poeltl and DD played together, SA had O/D ratings of 113.4/112.1 for a net of 1.3.  Their most used lineup that included JP/DD with Murray, White and Johnson was 117.9/111.9 for a net of 6.0.  In fact, as long as you kept JP/DD on the floor with any two of those guys, things went well.  So, there is an offensive scheme that works just fine with two non 3 point shooters and it isn't like Murray, White and Johnson are offensive juggernauts or even good floor spreaders themselves.

For $8.75mm you basically have your version of Zubac.  Any serious contender is going to need a guy like that to handle Ayton, Valenciunas, Towns, Embiid, Nurkic, Adams and Jokic.  You don't need that kind of big body interior presence every night, but when you do...you really do.  SA would presumably start KP at C, moving Poeltl to the bench.  The relationship with SA was already strained a bit as they played hardball with him when he was restricted last summer.  BTW, KP doesn't necessarily have to land in SA.  We are a viable threat to sign DeRozan outright.  Once mutual interest between Dallas and DeRozan is established, we work from there.  Maybe it is KP to SA.  Maybe it is KP to any of the half dozen other teams we've discussed and the assets we get from GS or Washington or Charlotte end up in SA.  It doesn't have to be equal value.  It just has to be good enough to motivate the Spurs to send Poeltl in the deal with S&T DeRozan.

I'm thinking you just keep DD at about his current $27.7mm salary.  Poeltl is $8.75mm and you sent out KP (and maybe WCS as injury insurance?).  If you do the latter, there is $30.5mm worth of space without JRich and $19.9mm with JRich.  You have Luka, DeRozan, Poeltl and DFS starting at this point with all sorts of options to add one more starter at any position other than C (plus some high level bench help).  You can throw the full max at Collins.  You can split the $30mm between Markannen and Danny Green (you need shooters at PF, does the defense of Poeltl make Markkanen more acceptable?).  You can play DFS/DeRozan at PF and focus on wings like THJ (probably not enough D) or Ball or N. Powell or Trent Jr. or Fournier or Graham.  You'd then use the rest of the money to finish out your Powell/Maxi/Green/Brunson bench.  I've not even started to contemplate S&T opportunities with THJ or JRich.  I'm not a fan of the deals where we send off half of our team.  This is relatively simple...KP and WCS and then make a decision about working over or under the cap depending on what you do with THJ.  You are turning KP into two starters and still have max money for Collins or plenty of money to add two players instead of the one near-max guy.

Interesting.  Thanks for putting together.  Exciting possibilities.  

One thing I keep coming back regarding a Sign and trade with KP and Derozan though is I have a fear of working with the Spurs.  My concern is they got the absolute best out of Derozan  and if we traded them KP my fear is we are handing them an all star caliber player once they got their hands on him.   That would be awful to see the Spurs manufacture a top 2 level player while keeping all their young pieces.

[dirkfansince1998]

Still thinking that KP to the Spurs makes more sense if they resign DeRozan. If everything works out for them and they keep most core pieces (Murray, Johnson, Vassell, White, Walker) that´s a potential playoff team.

Murray
White / Walker
DeRozan / Vassell
Johnson / Samanic
KP

Mavs only take back Poelt (creates enough capspace for the Spurs to offer DeRozan 25m)l. Can create nearly 60m in capspace (no THJ). Or 40+ m with THJ. Can do a mini rebuild around Luka.

[HanspardsShowerVoice]

I'm not so sure the Mavs are just moving on from THJ as a non priority.     In Mark's interview with The Daily Beast right after the playoffs he basically spoke of THJ like he's already been resigned.

What do you feel the team needs to become a title contender? I know you have Tim Hardaway Jr. and Josh Richardson potentially coming off the books, which would free up $30 million to go after an ace shooter.

We need a secondary ball handler with some size. KP will spread the court, make threes, is a great cutter, and block shots. Luka will create. We’ve got shooters with Tim and Trey [Burke] and Maxi [Kleber] and others. But we need someone to take the pressure off of Luka, so instead of him having to have the ball in his hands for 40 minutes, it could be 32 minutes, and that’s what we need.

I mean, he mentioned KP too and KP might not be in the long term plans either, but it makes sense to speak of KP as though he'll be on the 2021-2022 roster considering he's actually under contract and might be difficult to move.

[Kammrath]

Still thinking that KP to the Spurs makes more sense if they resign DeRozan. If everything works out for them and they keep most core pieces (Murray, Johnson, Vassell, White, Walker) that´s a potential playoff team.

Murray
White / Walker
DeRozan / Vassell
Johnson / Samanic
KP

Mavs only take back Poelt (creates enough capspace for the Spurs to offer DeRozan 25m)l. Can create nearly 60m in capspace (no THJ). Or 40+ m with THJ. Can do a mini rebuild around Luka.

100% with you. Don't want anything to do with DeRozan long term. If you get him on a one year so you have cap NEXT summer, fine. But otherwise I would rather go other directions.

[dirkfansince1998]

I'm not so sure the Mavs are just moving on from THJ as a non priority.     In Mark's interview with The Daily Beast right after the playoffs he basically spoke of THJ like he's already been resigned.




I mean, he mentioned KP too and KP might not be in the long term plans either, but it makes sense to speak of KP as though he'll be on the 2021-2022 roster considering he's actually under contract and might be difficult to move.

Hard to tell what they are trying to do. Just a few days ago Cuban said this:

https://twitter.com/diamond83/status/140...0425693188

Basically admits that KP cannot be the 2nd option. Not sure why. Tanks the trade value if he is on the way out. Probably creates more friction between KP and the team if he stays.

[fifteenth]

Hard to tell what they are trying to do. Just a few days ago Cuban said this:

https://twitter.com/diamond83/status/140...0425693188

Basically admits that KP cannot be the 2nd option. Not sure why. Tanks the trade value if he is on the way out. Probably creates more friction between KP and the team if he stays.

Ugh, that quote again. Such a ridiculous bunch of stuff for a team rep to let spew out of his mouth.  

Hopefully Nico was cringing and thinking of ways to convince his boss to stop talking basketball (specifics at least) in the public.

[Mavs2021]

Here's my latest late night proposal trying to put together some of the recent trade ideas:

CHI: JRich+ Maxi Kleber
NYK: Jalen Brunson+ 2025 2nd round pick (DAL)
DAL: Lauri Markkanen+ Mitchell Robinson+ 2023 FRP (Least favorable between NYK and DAL). 

Mavs get their 2023 pick back that can free up it's use in trades. Borrowing Dan's idea where NYK can choose to swap the least favorable between the two picks and get a 2nd for their troubles. NYK also gets Brunson who they've been angling for at least a year and a half. Mavs swap a young prospect for another with Mitchell Robinson who had a down year filled with injuries but fits a great alongside Luka.

Mavs also go to Chicago and offer them a suitable cost controlled Lauri replacement along with some backcourt defense they've been looking for. Mavs get Lauri in a SNT.

No way do the Knicks give up on Robinson.

I also have a hard time seeing the Bulls taking on J-Rich. Maybe if we take Aminu, preferably Young or Satoransky (who had some good line-ups with Markkanen).

Otherwise THJ might be an option for them, if they strike out on the Ball/Schroeder front. Then we can look at getting some asset for a THJ/Kleber package beyond a guarantee that the Bulls don´t match. For example the 38th pick this year. Petrusev is projected 39th and foreign bigs are usually value in the 2nd round.

So make it....

Bulls: Kleber/THJ
Mavs: Markkanen/Young/38th pick

Knicks: Brunson + 2025 2nd round pick+ 2023 swap rights for Knicks.
Mavs: 2023 Mavs pick

Funny enough now that Carlisle is gone, maybe we bring back UFA Noel.  He is the kind of free-roaming mobile PF/C, who might be useful next to Porzingis.

[Branduil]

I have zero interest in Markkanen except as a reclamation project for basically free. There's a reason Chicago is letting him go.