Klay Thompson's Defense

[audiosway]

We know the guy can shoot and that we are getting one of the best shooters to ever hit the court. He can still shoot lights out and will be able to do that when he's 50.

However, the big thing I keep hearing is that he can't defend anymore. So, let's discuss that. I watch a lot of GS basketball living in the bay area. Been watching them since the 2014 season. Honestly, the injuries didn't hurt him much since he was never athletic to begin with. They slowed him down a step laterally but really that's about it.

The way he plays defense isn't typical and the numbers don't show that he's ever been a great defender. Because for some basketball players numbers just don't tell the story. And the story they do tell isn't true.

Klay only made one All Defense team. Yet he always guarded the best perimeter player. And not only that but he consistently locked them up. He is 6'7" with a 6'9" wingspan. He has hips similar to a cornerback that swivel and move with the opponent. He has incredibly active hands and is way stronger than he looks. Luka has trouble backing him down. He also plays incredible well in a switching defense. Kerr ALWAYS had Curry switch out with Klay to hide. Klay can also guard Centers long enough for the help to come.

Even though he's never been quick he has an incredible high BBIQ to be able to recover and use his hips and length to guard small guards. Here is a video that does a very good job covering his strengths and weaknesses.



This video was made in Klay's prime right before the injuries. But, if you look at him after the injuries they eased him in the following year and he played 32 games. The following season he played and started 69 games averaging 33 mpg. (His numbers that year were pretty much identical if not better than the year before his injuries)

Last season he played in 77 games averaging 30 mpg. People talk about his year last year as if he's done. There was a lot going on internally with the team and he didn't want to be there. Even with that he didn't miss a free throw in all of April and finished shooting the lights out of the ball.

At 28 before injuries here are his numbers.
He was an all star, played 78 games averaging 34 mpg, 40.2% from 3 on 7.7 attempts a game, 81.6% FT, 3.8 Rebounds, 2.4 assists, 1.1 Steals, .6 blocks, 21.5 points per game.

The year before last (I consider last season a wash since the team was in turmoil)
At 32 here are his numbers.
He played 69 games averaging 33 mpg, 41.2% from 3 on 10.6 attempts a game, 87.9% FT, 4.1 Rebounds, 2.4 assists, .7 Steals, .5 blocks, 21.9 points per game.

Combine that with what I would say is about 85% of his defense he played in his prime and you have just massively upgraded the Mavs starting 5.

The one who will need to watch out is PJ Washington. Naji will push him for minutes.

[michaeltex]

Everybody worried about Klay's fit on the Mavs, just relax. Just remember how far the team has come since last July.

[Mavs2021]

Everybody worried about Klay's fit on the Mavs, just relax. Just remember how far the team has come since last July.

    I take a wait and see approach. It was obvious he was promised the starting spot*. So now he´ll start. If necessary, he´ll be benched for better defensive options and then we´ll learn about his true intentions to win. If he got a problem with that, he´s easily a nice trade-match for a player like Sexton, Simmons etc. without the remaining contract being a liability. That´s the difference between 75/3 (or worse) and 51/3.

*Sometimes I really wonder what passes as news these days.

[audiosway]

    I take a wait and see approach. It was obvious he was promised the starting spot*. So now he´ll start. If necessary, he´ll be benched for better defensive options and then we´ll learn about his true intentions to win. If he got a problem with that, he´s easily a nice trade-match for a player like Sexton, Simmons etc. without the remaining contract being a liability. That´s the difference between 75/3 (or worse) and 51/3.

*Sometimes I really wonder what passes as news these days.

I agree. I can tell you from watching Klay the last 10 years here in the Bay area that right now he is better than anyone on the Dallas roster outside of Luka and Kai.

PJ Washington is the one that needs to grow as a player. I could see Naji stealing some of his minutes if not.

[ballsrchr]

I have to put a smoldering dislike for Klay aside now for several reasons. First: Klay is a Mavs. Second: I think my dislike came about from watching him beat the Mavs for so many years. Now he's a Mavs!

Does he still have it? Yeah...I think so--on offense. He never was an Olympic class gymnast...and he still isn't. His defense has always been--as mentioned in an earlier post--based on BBIQ. He still has that BBIQ, so I'm very hopeful.

Probably the key is if he is happy on the Mavs and really wants to be here.

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

I see Klay as the THJ replacement even if he does look like he replaces DJJ at SF.
And even a declining Klay is still better than THJ.
IMHO:

Over-all offense: Klay's a 7, THJ's a 5
Atheleticism: Klay's a poor 4, while THJ's a solid 6
BBIQ: Klay's probably a 7, THJ's a 3
Defense: Klay's a 6, THJ's a 4

[BigDirk41]

    I take a wait and see approach. It was obvious he was promised the starting spot*. So now he´ll start. If necessary, he´ll be benched for better defensive options and then we´ll learn about his true intentions to win. If he got a problem with that, he´s easily a nice trade-match for a player like Sexton, Simmons etc. without the remaining contract being a liability. That´s the difference between 75/3 (or worse) and 51/3.

*Sometimes I really wonder what passes as news these days.

I'm going to say there is zero percent chance of Klay getting benched this year. It's not going to happen.

[mvossman]

I'm going to say there is zero percent chance of Klay getting benched this year. It's not going to happen.

I'm guessing most folks were saying the same before the season started in Golden State.

[Chicagojk]

I see Klay as the THJ replacement even if he does look like he replaces DJJ at SF.
And even a declining Klay is still better than THJ.
IMHO:

Over-all offense: Klay's a 7, THJ's a 5
Atheleticism: Klay's a poor 4, while THJ's a solid 6
BBIQ: Klay's probably a 7, THJ's a 3
Defense: Klay's a 6, THJ's a 4

I think this is fair.    The BB IQ and help side defense is where I hope we really see the difference.    

I have some concerns with his man to man defense with the guys we will need him to guard.   I think we can survive in the regular season with a rotation off the bench.   I am a little concerned come playoff time, but we will get a full season of observing by the time we get there.

[HoosierDaddyKid]

I don't know why I feel this way, but I think they take a step back on perimeter defense, because Jones was elite. Marshall isn't as good, regardless to what people say IMO. Ky and Luka have played better on the perimeter, but they are marginal defenders, and don't think teams aren't going to attack them on the offensive end and make them guard people. I know D-Live and Gaff are good rim protectors, but sometimes they are out of position to make a play. Like other's have said, we'll see...

[Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo]

I don't know why I feel this way, but I think they take a step back on perimeter defense, because Jones was elite. Marshall isn't as good, regardless to what people say IMO. 

DJJ was elite-ish while Naji is "just good to ok-he-is-really-good". The Mavs took a step back with that one personnel move.
But collectively, the defense evens out.

While Green is a disruptor with a constant motor in him to hustle -- Grime's D is better.
THJ at his most focused form isn't a negative on D, but that rarely happens -- Klay is still better.

Any period where DJJ becomes unavailable due to injuries and the perimeter D comes crashing down. While Naji-Klay-Grimes wouldn't be anywhere near DJJ, two of three would most likely be available in any given play date.

[KillerLeft]

Marshall is going to convince everyone that he's a GREAT defender. I'm not worried about that. But, he's a different KIND of defender than DJJ.

Grimes is a better defender than Green. Significantly, I think. The team will miss Green in some ways, but his overrated defense won't be one of those ways, in my opinion.

Thompson...I think there was a slight overreaction to his defensive decline at first by those among us who were taken off guard by the idea of bringing in a 34-year old FA. BUT, since then, I think the "hey, the Mavs got a free agent" shades have made the pendulum swing back a little too far in the other direction. He HAS declined, and the decline is MOST visible when he's on defense. It's tough to tell how he'll look here. I kind of feel like he'll be slightly higher than Luka and Kyrie on the "useful on the defensive end" scale but nowhere close to as good as Grimes, PJW, Marshall, Lively or Exum on that end.

In the aggregate, I believe they might have improved, defensively, as in if you were to quantify everyone on the roster's defensive skills with a number and then add those numbers up, that total number might be higher than it was last year, even at the end.

BUT, honestly, what is that worth? Not much, unless they can make the ROTATION work, and it must work on BOTH ends. The people worried about the defense aren't worried about Thompson so much as they're worried about him taking the role of the guy tasked to make up for Luka/Kyrie's shortcomings on the defensive end. However, we were recently reminded that DJJ didn't actually play as much as it felt like he did, AND, we might be making too many assumptions about the exact nature of Thompson's role. Then, you have Grimes and Marshall to factor in. I think BOTH are likely to have bigger roles here than most people seem to believe (but none of us know for sure, obviously). Mix in another summer and another regular season's worth of development for Lively, and this might look like a silly argument in hindsight.

The point is, it doesn't matter how much defense is on the roster, it's how much defense is in your top 7-8 players. But, and this part is key, if your offense sucks, there's no point in even showing up to the game, so REALLY, it's about being good on both ends with your top 7-8 players. I THINK I see ways this can be accomplished, Thompson decline or no, but given that there's far more of a gap in some of our predictions of how these guys will be used than I'd have ever anticipated, I think I've reached a point where I don't know what to expect.

[mvossman]

DJJ was elite-ish while Naji is "just good to ok-he-is-really-good". The Mavs took a step back with that one personnel move.
But collectively, the defense evens out.

While Green is a disruptor with a constant motor in him to hustle -- Grime's D is better.
THJ at his most focused form isn't a negative on D, but that rarely happens -- Klay is still better.

Any period where DJJ becomes unavailable due to injuries and the perimeter D comes crashing down. While Naji-Klay-Grimes wouldn't be anywhere near DJJ, two of three would most likely be available in any given play date.

On top of this, Lively defense improved steadily throughout the season, including the playoffs.  He will likely continue that progression while starting and getting more minutes.  That may be the biggest change defensively from last season to this coming one.

[RGP1981]

DJJ was elite-ish while Naji is "just good to ok-he-is-really-good". The Mavs took a step back with that one personnel move.
But collectively, the defense evens out.

While Green is a disruptor with a constant motor in him to hustle -- Grime's D is better.
THJ at his most focused form isn't a negative on D, but that rarely happens -- Klay is still better.

I agree with this. I also agree with those who say Grimes is a replacement for Green, Klay is a replacement for THJ, and Naji is a replacement for DJJ. 

But DJJ played more than Green or THJ in the playoffs, for good reason. So the question for me is usage, as in... which guys are used when/where, with whom, and in place of whom.

I'm putting my hopes in a Kyrie-Grimes-Luka-PJW-Lively/Gafford lineup... with Klay spelling both Kyrie and Luka. Having one pair of Luka-Kyrie, Luka-Klay, Kyrie-Klay on the floor at times would be optimal, IMO. If the plan is to play Kyrie-Klay-Luka for the majority of minutes in the playoffs though, I just can't see it working against the main competition (Celtics/OKC), as the balance is not there.

In the playoffs, I can also see Naji being useful when Luka plays the 4 on defense... such as:
- Kyrie, Grimes, Naji, Luka, Lively/Gafford.
- Grimes, Klay, Naji, Luka, Lively/Gafford.

[Ghost of Podkolzin]

DJJ was elite-ish while Naji is "just good to ok-he-is-really-good". The Mavs took a step back with that one personnel move.
But collectively, the defense evens out.

While Green is a disruptor with a constant motor in him to hustle -- Grime's D is better.
THJ at his most focused form isn't a negative on D, but that rarely happens -- Klay is still better.

Any period where DJJ becomes unavailable due to injuries and the perimeter D comes crashing down. While Naji-Klay-Grimes wouldn't be anywhere near DJJ, two of three would most likely be available in any given play date.

I watch more NOP games, other than the Mavs.  I would say Naji is at least an even defender with DJJ.  Then you have Klay over THJ and Grimes over Green. Individual talent wise, we are superior to last team's roster.  Add to that that Kidd's a defensive savant, we are going to lock it down.

[mvossman]

I watch more NOP games, other than the Mavs.  I would say Naji is at least an even defender with DJJ.  Then you have Klay over THJ and Grimes over Green. Individual talent wise, we are superior to last team's roster.  Add to that that Kidd's a defensive savant, we are going to lock it down.

To Killer's point, the defensive talent is better but the question is will the rotations be better defensively.  I'm still struggling to see Klay take over DJJ role as POA defender.  He hasn't been doing a lot of that recently.  Dinwiddie getting minutes with any 2 of Luka/Kyrie/Klay is a potential defensive problem as well.

[Chicagojk]

To Killer's point, the defensive talent is better but the question is will the rotations be better defensively.  I'm still struggling to see Klay take over DJJ role as POA defender.  He hasn't been doing a lot of that recently.  Dinwiddie getting minutes with any 2 of Luka/Kyrie/Klay is a potential defensive problem as well.

I have the same concerns.  I have hope that Klay will be a much better off the ball defender than a guy like Timmy.  I just have trouble seeing how he guards an elite perimeter player.  I think he will be better on bigger players (Leonard vs Ja).   I just don't think he has the foot speed now.   Kidd is going to want a see a defense that is connected.  Limit the wide open shots and funnel drivers into our rim protectors....so maybe he can play that role effectively.   

I think (hope) we can make it work in the regular season with the help of rotations off the bench.   Playoffs is what scares me a little.  We have a long way to get there though, so we have plenty of time to see what we see on the court.

[audiosway]

Marshall is going to convince everyone that he's a GREAT defender. I'm not worried about that. But, he's a different KIND of defender than DJJ.

Grimes is a better defender than Green. Significantly, I think. The team will miss Green in some ways, but his overrated defense won't be one of those ways, in my opinion.

Thompson...I think there was a slight overreaction to his defensive decline at first by those among us who were taken off guard by the idea of bringing in a 34-year old FA. BUT, since then, I think the "hey, the Mavs got a free agent" shades have made the pendulum swing back a little too far in the other direction. He HAS declined, and the decline is MOST visible when he's on defense. It's tough to tell how he'll look here. I kind of feel like he'll be slightly higher than Luka and Kyrie on the "useful on the defensive end" scale but nowhere close to as good as Grimes, PJW, Marshall, Lively or Exum on that end.

In the aggregate, I believe they might have improved, defensively, as in if you were to quantify everyone on the roster's defensive skills with a number and then add those numbers up, that total number might be higher than it was last year, even at the end.

BUT, honestly, what is that worth? Not much, unless they can make the ROTATION work, and it must work on BOTH ends. The people worried about the defense aren't worried about Thompson so much as they're worried about him taking the role of the guy tasked to make up for Luka/Kyrie's shortcomings on the defensive end. However, we were recently reminded that DJJ didn't actually play as much as it felt like he did, AND, we might be making too many assumptions about the exact nature of Thompson's role. Then, you have Grimes and Marshall to factor in. I think BOTH are likely to have bigger roles here than most people seem to believe (but none of us know for sure, obviously). Mix in another summer and another regular season's worth of development for Lively, and this might look like a silly argument in hindsight.

The point is, it doesn't matter how much defense is on the roster, it's how much defense is in your top 7-8 players. But, and this part is key, if your offense sucks, there's no point in even showing up to the game, so REALLY, it's about being good on both ends with your top 7-8 players. I THINK I see ways this can be accomplished, Thompson decline or no, but given that there's far more of a gap in some of our predictions of how these guys will be used than I'd have ever anticipated, I think I've reached a point where I don't know what to expect.

I definitely agree that the "hey the Mavs got a free agent" crowd has swung it too far the other way. The Klay we are getting has declined a little bit but also not to the degree that people think. Now that may sound counterintuitive. But, Klay has never been a great athlete. And he's never really been fast. I have a feeling that people will look at Klay in Dallas and say he has had a resurgence.

He's never been a Matrix style defender either. Matrix was built for defense and was a smart defender. Klay is a very smart defender with active hands and he's able to get more out of his body as a defender than most would think. He has actually taught Steph to be a much better defender. I think he'll do the same with Luka and Ky.

Part of the reason Klay wasn't starting with GS is partly due to having so many young players that they needed to see on the floor before paying them. The other reason is that GS moves a lot and fast constantly. Where Klay declined is that he can't keep up with that pace anymore for 35 minutes a night. He never really could keep up with Steph but they made it work very well. Steph is the one that set the pace. No one can keep up with Steph.

Playing with Dallas will be perfect for Klay because it will seem like he is constantly moving and getting open but it will be nothing like it was with GS. He will normally make 2-3 moves after a screen and just send the defense scrambling. He creates a ton of chaos for opposing defenses with that. But, he will look more like his old self because of not having to run the entire night like that. 

It will likely take until the ASB for the Mavs to really get everything cohesive. But, they are going to be a blast to watch. I still think they will be a top 3 seed.

For the season last year THJ played more minutes than DJJ did. The only reason they had to go with DJJ is because THJ got hurt and then his shot just disappeared. Klay is taking the THJ role but will start in place of DJJ. Even though DJJ is a great defender I personally don't think we'll see a terrible drop off there. The games were normally tight so DJJ HAD to be out there to shut guys down. With Klay the other team is going to be scrambling more on defense trying to keep up with the 3 headed monster of Luka, Ky and Klay. That alone is going to drastically change the overall feel of the game.

Grimes is definitely considerably better on D than Green. Grimes is up there with DJJ as a POA defender I think. He's going to have a huge impact off the bench. I could also see him growing into a role that has him as a starter down the road.

Naji is a great defender. But, like you said, just different than DJJ. You guys are going to LOVE Naji. He is another PJ where he will taunt and make his presence felt as an enforcer. That energy from those 2 will spread and make the team more gritty. Naji is also a knockdown shooter. Him and Grimes can both shoot very well and without hesitation.