Trade & FA 2024-25: NYK Shopping Mitchell Robinson?

[Chicagojk]

Id be fine with DJJ being back and Josh Green being back but my 1st exploration this offseason would be to find someone better than those two.

Luka
Kyrie
Lively
find a guy that can challenge or eclipse PJ Washington for 4th best player

I agree with this.  I want DJJ back.  He fit in well and still has growth to his game.  Is he a starter longterm?  That is tbd. I think both parties would line me to find a way to make it work.

I am just against using Hardaway and a future first to clear up room.  Those are two decent assets.  Hardaway is decent at the deadline as expiring.  A future first needs to be used to draft a young kid or as a way to get a legit starting wing.   I don’t like using both assets to resign DJJ.  Now if you could move Hardaway and a second for air….that is a different story

[mvossman]

Whatever the legal match bottom end of THJ/Kleber´s salaries is. So probably around 60/3 ish. I don´t want to sign him for that at all. He is one of my favourite players, but he´s also 35 years old. I just think that´s what will happen.

Please no more Dinwiddie talk. 1. He made his choice. 2. He put up 3/2/2 (rounding up) in the play-offs against Denver in like 13 MPG. .

I'm curious why you think this given the direction this FO seems to be taking?  Lively, Grant, PJ, Gafford and even DJJ are all young players.  Are you thinking the mindset is that we are close and now is time to push all in on a vet?  Maybe they will, but I hope they continue the youth movement and focus on long term, especially given how well it worked the first year they did it.

[mvossman]

I agree with this.  I want DJJ back.  He fit in well and still has growth to his game.  Is he a starter longterm?  That is tbd. I think both parties would line me to find a way to make it work.

I am just against using Hardaway and a future first to clear up room.  Those are two decent assets.  Hardaway is decent at the deadline as expiring.  A future first needs to be used to draft a young kid or as a way to get a legit starting wing.   I don’t like using both assets to resign DJJ.  Now if you could move Hardaway and a second for air….that is a different story

I think that is the line.  Timmy + second for DJJ and BAE is reasonable tradeoff.  And you still have the first.  In an ideal world you can send out Timmy + first and get an upgrade while carving out enough to make DJJ happy (whatever that may be).

[Mavs2021]

I'm curious why you think this given the direction this FO seems to be taking?  Lively, Grant, PJ, Gafford and even DJJ are all young players.  Are you thinking the mindset is that we are close and now is time to push all in on a vet?  Maybe they will, but I hope they continue the youth movement and focus on long term, especially given how well it worked the first year they did it.

Yes. I kind of expect them to try the two year window approach. Try to secure a veteran with low asset costs and then re-load in 12-18 months with somebody like Simons or Sexton, when they are (close to) expiring. Maybe they will even use DeRozan´s contract to match that. I´d also prefer the younger approach now, but I´m not sure it will be there asset management wise. So I´m not saying it will be a change of philospohy, just a detour to get there.

Me personally I´d make Jalen Smith my #1 realitistic summer target. A young stretch four/five with good rebounding is a perfect addition to Washington/Lively/Gafford/Kleber. Shame he allegedly opted out. I´d have loved to get him for Powell in a trade, then pay him in 12 months, if everything works out. Once again my drawing card here would be that lob threat Luka gets you paid and on top you get plenty of the (often injured) Kleber minutes. Maybe we´ll find a way.

The guard/playmaker has to happen. Maybe you wait six months as the leverage for Utah and Portland decreases on Sexton/Simons. Henderson might take a leap and Portland decides it´s time to go Henderson/Sharpe starting backcourt, plus potentially a new draft pick to factor in. You could also get six months to see how Lavine returns, but above all you get an extended run of Jaden Hardy, just not as the primary ballhandler.

One of favourite waiting trades is still

Micic + 2024 2nd round pick from Houston for THJ + 2025 Toronto 2nd round pick + removal of the top 2 protection on the Washington pick.
That should give us some wiggle room for DJJ and maybe even a S&T of Smith for Powell + Lawson.

Micic can share the back-up PG minutes for the next two years with Exum, while we finally put Hardy and Green in their proper off ball positions. I want to see Hardy play 25-28 MPG as a SG early in the season. He shot 40.7% from three in the play-offs, got his regular season number up to 36.2% after an atrocious start, but his 2pt shooting percentage is still awful. Take the ball out of his hands, but feed him three after three. Once people respect his 3pt shot, he has a nice little escape dribble  mid range jumper, but damn if he tries to get all the way to the rim. Build his game from the outside inwards.

[JamesConway912]

They have brought in younger players, correct, but a good chunk of the roster remains filled with veterans. Kyrie, Kleber, THJr, Morris. Those guys need to be evaluated as well.

I actually like the mix they have right now. It just looks like it might be time to make a few adjustments here and there. Kyrie did his job as an experienced heavy lifter perfectly fine, probably better than expected, Morris does well as the towel waiver, there is no need to do anything here. But I’d bet that THjr and Kleber both were penciled in for MUCH bigger roles than they were actually able to take on, especially in the postseason.

Then if you look at DeRozan, he has been highly productive last year and very durable even throughout the season before that. If theres a way of going from THjr to him I’d be very open to that. That doesn’t mean I would not prefer a younger option (Sexton, Simons) or wouldn’t think about a different vet (McCollum?) but he’s worth exploring.

Availability is a big thing. DeMar / CHI might be ready for a divorce and there might not be a ton of suitors who can offer him a good chunk of money and a big role on a contender.

[Mavs2021]

They have brought in younger players, correct, but a good chunk of the roster remains filled with veterans. Kyrie, Kleber, THJr, Morris. Those guys need to be evaluated as well.

I actually like the mix they have right now. It just looks like it might be time to make a few adjustments here and there. Kyrie did his job as an experienced heavy lifter perfectly fine, probably better than expected, Morris does well as the towel waiver, there is no need to do anything here. But I’d bet that THjr and Kleber both were penciled in for MUCH bigger roles than they were actually able to take on, especially in the postseason.

Then if you look at DeRozan, he has been highly productive last year and very durable even throughout the season before that. If theres a way of going from THjr to him I’d be very open to that. That doesn’t mean I would not prefer a younger option (Sexton, Simons) or wouldn’t think about a different vet (McCollum?) but he’s worth exploring.

Availability is a big thing. DeMar / CHI might be ready for a divorce and there might not be a ton of suitors who can offer him a good chunk of money and a big role on a contender.

And Chicago does not have much leverage. THJ + two 2nd round picks + re-trade value of Kleber (to a contender) might be enough to push this through and gain $7.5M in capspace to help toward re-signing DJJ.

[michaeltex]

So I'm seeing THJ is a consensus goner, either for air to help re-sign DJJ or for some type of upgrade. You guys are much more knowledgeable and creative about theorizing where and how he will be traded, so I'm looking forward to the discussions.

It feels like Maxi may be made available if the deal is right, although I think our heart isn't really in it for at least another year. If a suitable upgrade comes along, then you act, but he's a lot more secure than THJ, IMO. Is O-max really a viable backup here? You gain athleticism but give up size. FWIW, I think we will need a big PF going forward to deal with increasing size in the leagues top teams.

What's the feeling on DP? He's making $11M, but isn't playing much more than garbage time. I think he has one more year? Is he likely to be filler if a bigger deal comes along? Otherwise, keep him around for break-the-glass insurance? Certainly a big community guy, off the court.

Green has a $41M extension kicking in next season. Has he reached his ceiling in DAL? I feel like he's OK for a bench guy, but has no real shot at challenging for a starting role or a 6th-7th man. You need these kinds of guys, but at $13.5M/year? Maybe that's the going rate now days. Personally, I'd like to see a fresh face in this role, but I don't have anyone specific.

Hardy and Exum are signed for next season, but their contracts are not currently guaranteed. Personally, I like a lot of Exum's game and would be happy to keep him on to start another season in a backup role, unless a better option becomes available. Hardy, I like his speed and athleticism, but if feels like the game hasn't quite slowed down for him yet. Maybe another year, but I wouldn't hang on to him if an upgrade comes available.

Anyway, Tuesday morning, post-finals musings.

[mvossman]

So I'm seeing THJ is a consensus goner, either for air to help re-sign DJJ or for some type of upgrade. You guys are much more knowledgeable and creative about theorizing where and how he will be traded, so I'm looking forward to the discussions.

It feels like Maxi may be made available if the deal is right, although I think our heart isn't really in it for at least another year. If a suitable upgrade comes along, then you act, but he's a lot more secure than THJ, IMO. Is O-max really a viable backup here? You gain athleticism but give up size. FWIW, I think we will need a big PF going forward to deal with increasing size in the leagues top teams.

What's the feeling on DP? He's making $11M, but isn't playing much more than garbage time. I think he has one more year? Is he likely to be filler if a bigger deal comes along? Otherwise, keep him around for break-the-glass insurance? Certainly a big community guy, off the court.

Green has a $41M extension kicking in next season. Has he reached his ceiling in DAL? I feel like he's OK for a bench guy, but has no real shot at challenging for a starting role or a 6th-7th man. You need these kinds of guys, but at $13.5M/year? Maybe that's the going rate now days. Personally, I'd like to see a fresh face in this role, but I don't have anyone specific.

Hardy and Exum are signed for next season, but their contracts are not currently guaranteed. Personally, I like a lot of Exum's game and would be happy to keep him on to start another season in a backup role, unless a better option becomes available. Hardy, I like his speed and athleticism, but if feels like the game hasn't quite slowed down for him yet. Maybe another year, but I wouldn't hang on to him if an upgrade comes available.

Anyway, Tuesday morning, post-finals musings.

Maxi is probably a negative asset right now due to his age, health issues and the fact that he has two more years on his contract.  He is very unlikely to be moved.

DP is making 4 mil.  As a third string center and looker room guy I am not going to quibble that he is getting a little more than min.

If we don't manage to re-sign DJJ, Green might be starting.  He gave us quality rotational minutes in the playoffs and is still young.  MLE is going rate for that.

Exum tanked any value he had with injury troubles and playoff performance.  I'm sure he will be here.  Hardy might have some trade value, but he is our only legit change at home grown 6th man and he is Nico's first draft pick.  I kind of doubt he will be going anywhere either.

[mvossman]

Micic + 2024 2nd round pick from Houston for THJ + 2025 Toronto 2nd round pick + removal of the top 2 protection on the Washington pick.
That should give us some wiggle room for DJJ and maybe even a S&T of Smith for Powell + Lawson.

Micic can share the back-up PG minutes for the next two years with Exum, while we finally put Hardy and Green in their proper off ball positions. I want to see Hardy play 25-28 MPG as a SG early in the season. He shot 40.7% from three in the play-offs, got his regular season number up to 36.2% after an atrocious start, but his 2pt shooting percentage is still awful. Take the ball out of his hands, but feed him three after three. Once people respect his 3pt shot, he has a nice little escape dribble  mid range jumper, but damn if he tries to get all the way to the rim. Build his game from the outside inwards.

I think if they go for a cheap backup PG, its more likely to be a vet than somebody with 1 year of NBA experience.

[SleepingHero]

Mavs have a 2025 FRP (expected to be late), and an unprotected 2031 FRP, an oft-injured yet defensive beast of a big man, and an expiring contract.

Mavs need a Jrue trade, but for a wing. Who could that be?

[mvossman]

Mavs have a 2025 FRP (expected to be late), and an unprotected 2031 FRP, an oft-injured yet defensive beast of a big man, and an expiring contract.

Mavs need a Jrue trade, but for a wing. Who could that be?
[/quote]

Robert Williams was 25 and who is your Brogdon, Green?  I'm not sure we need a Jrue Holiday trade.  What we really need is a Derrick White trade.

[F Gump]

Mavs have a 2025 FRP (expected to be late), and an unprotected 2031 FRP, an oft-injured yet defensive beast of a big man, and an expiring contract.

Mavs need a Jrue trade, but for a wing. Who could that be?

Two-way, upper tier, and a wing -- that will be a super-expensive contract, and take a lot of assets.

The only one I can think of who might be on the move this summer is Paul George, but he's only available by trade if he opts in and is on an expiring contract (assuming LA re-signs Harden).

"What we really need is a Derrick White trade" -- Wasn't PJW trade very similar?

Edited to add: Just saw a note that Anunoby is looking for gr$$ner pastures.

[SleepingHero]

Bobby Marks (@BobbyMarks42)
Unofficial luxury tax payments per team:

Golden St- $176.9M
LAC- $142.4M
Phoenix- $68.2M
Milwaukee- $52.5M
Boston- $43.8M
Denver- $20.2M
Miami- $15.7M
LA Lakers- $6.9M

The 22 teams below the tax are projected to receive $11.96M each.

[DanSchwartzgan]

If you trade THJ for air, you basically have about $17mm under the apron.  If you give DJJ the full $12.9 MLE, then you can use some of, but not all of the BAE (or one of the TPE's), but you've hard-capped yourself at the first apron. 

You can also trade match THJ, but if you go over 100% of his salary, it also hard caps you at the first apron.   
 

We can also look at deals that occur in June.  If you want to do a dump, I believe Utah is the only team with cap room.  Brooklyn and Atlanta have TPE's large enough to take Hardaway.  Brooklyn is hard-capped for 23/24 and only $15.2mm under the apron (so not enough room for THJ without some returning salary).  Atlanta is not hard-capped in 23/24.  Three way deals are also a possibility in June, but taxes would have to also be considered as some structures could easily turn a a non-taxpaying team for 23/24 into a tax paying team.

If you want to trade THJ and bring back matching salary (thus killing DJJ for anything over the TP MLE), you'd be better off doing it now if the player you are bringing back makes more than THJ.  Remember from the earlier post that a trade with more than 100% matching salary hard caps you at the first apron next season (and we are barely under the apron for 24/25 now).  

If you want to trade match THJ for a larger salary now, there are a couple of things to bear in mind.  Normally a trade match for THJ would be at a $7.5mm spread.  We are only $6.2mm under the apron for 23/24 and we are hard-capped.  So, something under $6.2mm is the most we could bring back above what THJ makes.  $17.8 + $6.2 = $24mm.  However, anything over about $600k makes us a tax team for 23/24.  So, $18.5mm might be the practical limit for returning salary from a June trade of THJ unless  we send out an additional salary.

[SleepingHero]

Two-way, upper tier, and a wing -- that will be a super-expensive contract, and take a lot of assets.

The only one I can think of who might be on the move this summer is Paul George, but he's only available by trade if he opts in and is on an expiring contract (assuming LA re-signs Harden).

"What we really need is a Derrick White trade" -- Wasn't PJW trade very similar?

The 2 this summer are PG and Lebron. Both are older. Both have injury issues. But I can see reasons for both wanting to come here. SnT's for both will cost THJ+Maxi+Green just to get the contracts to match. Add in Hardy and maybe even OMax as sweeteners. Is that worth it? I mean we aren't technically touching the core of anyone who played real minutes and contributed to this run. Maxi is the biggest loss. But to add a guy like PG13 or Lebron kind of seems like a no brainer. 


A guy if you want to take on risk and revisit is Andrew Wiggins, who is a two-way wing that can score 15-20 a night consistently. Only reason why he won't cost a lot of assets is solely because of GSW cap issues and the fact Wiggins takes nights off. 

Does he fit?

[Mavs2021]

I think if they go for a cheap backup PG, its more likely to be a vet than somebody with 1 year of NBA experience.

...aka as a three time national champion in Lithuania/Turkey, two time EuroLeague winner, Euro League top scorer, Euro League MVP and final four Euro League MVP. The guy can definitely control a 2nd unit at PG.

[DanSchwartzgan]

 
A guy if you want to take on risk and revisit is Andrew Wiggins, who is a two-way wing that can score 15-20 a night consistently. Only reason why he won't cost a lot of assets is solely because of GSW cap issues and the fact Wiggins takes nights off. 
 

As a Public Service Reminder, if we trade for Wiggins in July, we get hard capped if we take back more than 100% of outgoing.  Matching Wiggins at $26.3mm (or any other big name at big dollars) in July will be a challenge.  We also have to think of the other side of the deal.  IF GS takes back THJ/Maxi (to make the numbers stay under 100% of outgoing for us), we have to think about the apron situation of the other team.  There will be deals that work from one side and not the other if you try to deal with apron teams.  A whole new layer of complexity.

As I tried to explain above, June deals (within the limits outlined) may be easier, but we would likely pay tax and give up $12mm in tax distribution if we do that.  Of course, if we help someone lower or eliminate their payment, that might be part of the compensation to the deal.

[F Gump]

If you want to trade match THJ for a larger salary now, there are a couple of things to bear in mind.  Normally a trade match for THJ would be at a $7.5mm spread.  We are only $6.2mm under the apron for 23/24 and we are hard-capped.  So, something under $6.2mm is the most we could bring back above what THJ makes.  $17.8 + $6.2 = $24mm.  However, anything over about $600k makes us a tax team for 23/24.  So, $18.5mm might be the practical limit for returning salary from a June trade of THJ unless  we send out an additional salary.

Those numbers look way off. As has been written already, the Mavs relation to the Apron is $0 room for practical purposes, not $6.2M, and that $0 assumes only a14-man roster. EDITED TO ADD - I was focusing on next season numbers, and the numbers that matter are that player(s) coming back need to be dollar-neutral or better for their contracts next year, even if the trade is done in June.

So any swap has to be dollar neutral or better vs THJ's 16.2, and that includes accounting for any empty roster slots created.

[mvossman]

The 2 this summer are PG and Lebron. Both are older. Both have injury issues. But I can see reasons for both wanting to come here. SnT's for both will cost THJ+Maxi+Green just to get the contracts to match. Add in Hardy and maybe even OMax as sweeteners. Is that worth it? I mean we aren't technically touching the core of anyone who played real minutes and contributed to this run. Maxi is the biggest loss. But to add a guy like PG13 or Lebron kind of seems like a no brainer. 


A guy if you want to take on risk and revisit is Andrew Wiggins, who is a two-way wing that can score 15-20 a night consistently. Only reason why he won't cost a lot of assets is solely because of GSW cap issues and the fact Wiggins takes nights off. 

Does he fit?

Wiggins has taken off most of his career defensively, and the fact that he stopped trying in Golden State is a huge red flag.  He also can't create for others, which is something we could really use to take the pressure off Luka/Kyrie during the regular season.

Lebron or PG would cost all of our assets.  It would be a two year window all in.  I really hope we don't go down that route.

[TurkishMFFL]

...aka as a three time national champion in Lithuania/Turkey, two time EuroLeague winner, Euro League top scorer, Euro League MVP and final four Euro League MVP. The guy can definitely control a 2nd unit at PG.

I definitely agree. Watched him live for years here and he is both a great playmaker and solid scorer.