Game 19: Oklahoma City Thunder (12-6) vs. Dallas Mavericks (11-7) | 8:00pm CST

[surfpuckmd]

Couldn’t watch the game.  Grant Williams 1 rebound.  What is going on there?  I like the Mavs best when they have these athletic active wings.  DFS undersized but played this role well.  Williams needs to be a much more positive impact when his shot isn’t falling or else he is a bench player in the future rather than starter.

Grant Williams is a 3-point specialist.  He does that really well.  Otherwise, he's an undersized power forward who we overrated defensively..  As you mentioned, he also doesn't rebound.  I think the contract we gave him is fair but I think it was a terrible move to trade the 2030 pick swap for him.  That was really senseless and could be very costly.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Lively +12 in 39 minutes in a 6 point loss.

[The Jom]

This is not real. 30-0 runs don’t happen in basketball. This is ref-induced WWF-style wool being pulled over our eyes. Then they pulled the chair. Even called traveling on Luka. Which of course is real except they let guys travel all the time until they decide it’s time to turn on a team.

So hard to watch sports right now.

[BolsDamols]

Lively +12 in 39 minutes in a 6 point loss.

Holmes (-9) and Powell (-9) = -18..his back ups are not cutting it

[SwisherPrice]

Lost the rebounding battle again...even with Luka/Lively getting 15+ boards each. And the sad thing is that OKC doesn't have a ton of size themselves, outside of Chet. They play a lot of small ball forwards and still outrebounded us.

[SleepingHero]

Jason Kidd has to be fired at some point.

---

As one of his most staunch supporters, I have to admit that Grant Williams is on a bad stretch of play, lately.

Defense isn’t quite as impactful as it should be, the catch-and-shoot opps aren’t falling frequently enough and frankly, he is trying to do a little too much on offense. 

That last thing is a complaint I have about DJJ, too, but it’s not such a bother in his case because his corner three is consistently wet.

Grant is barely doing crap out there. 

He's constantly ball watching on defense. I've seen on more than one occasion Lively, a rookie, YELL at the top of his lungs at Grant to get back into position. What is wrong with the dude?

He had an amazing 10 game stretch and has seem to forget to play basketball.

[Chicagojk]

I too as one of his biggest fans have been disappointed in Hardy.  He is losing minutes.  Minutes are tight as is but outside of two early good games, he has not taken advantage and forced him to be on the court.  Quite the opposite actually.  Let’s see how he responds and if he can earn minutes in practice.

The more I look at our roster, I think Green is a rotation guard and not a wing.  He just makes our current roster too small.  Maybe he plays 3 at times but I view him more of a guard.  If true, him and Hardy are fighting to be the one in the plans moving forward after Hardaway leaves.

Minutes are tight, but I hope OMAx gets more opportunities.  Live with his rawness.  He provides the exact length and athleticism this team needs.  I hope by the end of the year he has earned 10-15 minutes a game.  If the Mavs are right on him, he maybe is in the finishing 5 by next year.  A lot of work though but I think with confidence he can be impactful even if he is running around with his head cut off.

Lively offense is entirely dependent on him getting the ball at the rim.  But the rebound and block numbers is what we need to see more of.  16 boards and 6 blocks won’t happen often, but we need to see consistent 10 rebound games and 2-3 blocks.  This team desperately needs help here.

[Chicagojk]

https://x.com/iztok_franko/status/173129...41845?s=46&t=iwQP5yZoJF3Ulzfb9MH7Cg

[KillerLeft]

O-Max made a difference out there, defensively. A big, noticeable one, imo.

The problem is his offense. He can’t shoot yet.

[KillerLeft]

Mavs, missing 5 rotation players and having to play 2-3 G-leaguers on the second night of a back to back, almost won the game.

Sure, 12-7 would’ve been better than 11-8, but there are some things to feel positive about this morning.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

https://x.com/ktownmac35/status/17313181...92838?s=46

Didn’t catch this during the broadcast. Lively learning to score from the nail in the short roll would be huge for us moving forward.

[DanSchwartzgan]

I too as one of his biggest fans have been disappointed in Hardy.  He is losing minutes.   

The more I look at our roster, I think Green is a rotation guard and not a wing.  He just makes our current roster too small.  Maybe he plays 3 at times but I view him more of a guard.   

Minutes are tight, but I hope OMAx gets more opportunities.  Live with his rawness.  He provides the exact length and athleticism this team needs.   
 

It was kind of telling last night that the G-league guys got more burn than Hardy.  As Killer said, we may have passed peak trade value.  It has always been about decision making for Hardy.  It hasn't been good.  You get glimpses of brilliance followed by glimpses of THJ at his worst.

I think whatever you call Green, he fits nicely between Kyrie and Luka in the starting lineup.  Doesn't demand shots, takes the more difficult back court matchup and helps out on D (maybe too much).  Moves the ball and helps with pace.  I don't think he's the long term problem here and I like Exum/Seth providing depth and helping to manage minutes here.  With this much depth, it is hard to find developmental minutes for Hardy.

What that leaves you with is THJ, GWill and DJJ eating up 3/4 minutes (and if Green is starting, we are calling Luka a 3 also).  GWill is 27 of 82 from the field in his last 11 games (.329%).  DJJ beats him at FG%, 3% and per minute rebounding and scoring.  GWill's body language hasn't been what it was to start the season (and Green's doesn't look great either, which makes you wonder).  I think GWill is miscast as a starting four here.  But, he can't be a three as he can't guard perimeter 3's/2's.  He's probably a valuable bench guy.    

I think at some point we'll need to decide between OMax and Hardy to get developmental minutes.  It is hard to find time for both.  Right now, the bigger need is for OMax to step up, but it feels like a pretty long term project.  Will we have the patience?  And, who do you play him with that also hides his issues on O?  I thought he looked more comfortable (or less lost) last night.   

In one of the recent games there was some complaining about defensive rotations and guys not knowing where to be.  Watch THJ sometime.  He squares up on guys and tries hard and we all think he's playing D.  But, watch him away from the ball.  It isn't good.  It is the same old story.  We have 3 starters and a bunch of guys who are 5 - 9's in Green, THJ, DJJ and GWill.  We need a starting four and we need better at the backup 5 (especially on those nights when Lively has foul issues).  That Iztok video you posted makes a fantastic point.  The way Lively is developing, by the end of next season (assuming we get that one more guy who pushes GWill to the bench), we are going to be trouble.

[juanc]

O-Max made a difference out there, defensively. A big, noticeable one, imo.

The problem is his offense. He can’t shoot yet.

Just rewatched the game and I've got to say that I too was impressed with Omax.. In the first half he was solid on defense, but in the 2nd half he was a stopper. Whoever tried to go at him passed the ball away and that's one thing the Mavs have been missing in the past few years. He really has all the tools to snatch an all defensive team or two. On offense he made some progress from the preseason, if he ever becomes a solid 3pt shooter he'll be a great piece.

DEAR FORUM MEMBERS, PLEASE STOP WITH THE OMAX TRADE IDEAS! THANKS!

Lively was great, but the one thing that bothers me is his contests/closeouts on the 3pt line. The only thing he needs to do is to jogg to the 3pt line to contest the shot, but he is still or walks and that's where the Mavs give up an open three or two..

[KillerLeft]

 I think GWill is miscast as a starting four here. 

I don't think he's playing well right now, but I'm not here with you yet. 

For starters, if the offense is going to continue to be based around the Luka/Lively pick and roll, and I don't see any reason it shouldn't, then the primary offensive responsibility of the 4 is going to be catch-and-shoot from distance. In theory, that's how Williams fits in. He needs to make them at a rate higher than freaking DJJ, obviously. 

Secondly, since Lively is a "true" big in almost every sense of the word, including (unfortunately) defensive foot speed (he's quick enough in the paint, but isn't going to close out and recover like Bam, for example), that means the most important quality of the 4, defensively, should be versatility. Someone quick who can get out to the corners and contest. Someone who can move quickly to play help defense. Someone who can switch. Again, in theory, this is Williams. 

He hasn't been as impactful these past 10 games or so. I'll give you that. But, I don't think it would be the easiest thing in the world to reimagine this thing with a Lauri Markannen, for example. Someone like that is going to want to be INVOLVED in the offense. You might say "of course, and bring it on!" but...what the hell will Lively be doing out there while Markannen and Luka play off one another? I don't know that Lively is ready to play off of a FEATURED front court player like that, at least not yet. People will laugh at this, but I promise that the reason the kid is doing so well is that he's doing only things he's already good at. You bring in a featured guy at the 4, and you're basically asking Lively to be Brook Lopez. I don't know that he's there yet. I think that makes the team worse in the short term, not better. PLUS, are we convinced Lively can't develop into that featured front court player? I'm not, especially after watching what he did last night out of the short roll. 

I still think that they have the right role in mind for Grant Williams, and that he's capable of playing it. PJ Tucker is the model.

EDIT: I think I agree with the ORIGIN of your opinion, in that I believe it's based on the idea that longterm, the team will need one offensively featured front court player. I'm just not sure it has be the 4. You're assuming a ceiling for Lively I'm not (you might be right) and you're assuming Green is the other starter, so Williams is in the way of that for you.

[dirkfansince1998]

Williams is miscast for the role the Mavs want him to play. Mavs brought in a 25 year old to be the vet leader and glue guy. He never anchored a defense and isn't an onball stopper. He is versatile and can shine in a switch heavy system (Boston in the past).
I think DanS post is spot on. Mavs once again have a collection of good rotation players but ideally you don't want them to start. Big difference compared to past seasons and the reason why I am more hopeful is that the we aren't talking about Bullock or Matthews on their last leg. We are looking at guys in their early or mid 20s. For the first time in what feels like forever the Mavs have a core of players in their early/mid 20s.
That's where I agree with Killerleft. I don't view this as a win now season (Cuban, Nico, Kidd probably do). Doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to win but it's more of a bonus for me.

[omahen]

GWill is doing great against stronger and slower guys who like to play physical. He gave huge problems to Kawhi, for example. But, his perimeter defense against quicker guards or wings is imho a level or two worse than Luka. Everyone just blow by him. I was expecting he is way better in this regard. I am not that concerned about his shooting. First 10 games or so were unrealistic at over 50 %. Defenses are paying more attention now, he is getting less shots and looks like he is also in a slump. He is also not very convincing when trying to drive to the basket and quite a number of his mid range floater attempts were sort of comically bad. Never the less, opposing defenses will not be able to afford to leave him open. They still might be able to hide their worst defender on him, as he doesn't do much else but shoot.

Regarding Green, I am not sure either he is a starter on a contender. Not because of his passive offense which went to such extent that teams are (successfuly) hiding guys like Sabonis on him. He is very good (best on team) pushing the ball but basically invisible in the half court offense. And imho not just because he is a great guy who likes to get others involved. He is just reluctant, both as shooter as well as on his drives, rather looking to pass than finish. THJ is showing Mavs need another offensively aggresive player besides their two stars. But, he needs to be a better defender, not just offense first guy. However, it is not just his offense that is not convincing. I am not convinced at all by his point of attack defense. He has problems getting around screens and is very easily pushed out of balance. As it is now, I think his best role is an energy guy coming from the bench. Sure he is still young and can improve, but I haven't really see much of a progress.

DJJ is a much better point of attack defender than Green. Basically he lets us see, what the stereotype for a starter next to Luka and Kyrie on defense should look like. He really surprised me with his offense. He is not reluctant to shoot a three (totally contrary to his career so far) and is good in transition. Still, opposing defenses are not affraid of him. OKC had no problem doubling Luka whole game and letting others have as many wiiiiide open shots as they wanted and it worked for them for three quarters. He is a guy opposing defense will hide their worst defender on and not worry much if he gets more space. I think that would be exposed in playoffs.

All in all, I am fine with either Green or GWill as fifth starter. But, I maintain my position, that Mavs need to "change" THJ and Holmes salaries into an all NBA defense type two way wing. I don't think getting a back-up center (or even a stop-gap starter for a season or two) would drastically improve Mavs chances.

[surfpuckmd]

It was kind of telling last night that the G-league guys got more burn than Hardy.  As Killer said, we may have passed peak trade value.  It has always been about decision making for Hardy.  It hasn't been good.  You get glimpses of brilliance followed by glimpses of THJ at his worst.

I think whatever you call Green, he fits nicely between Kyrie and Luka in the starting lineup.  Doesn't demand shots, takes the more difficult back court matchup and helps out on D (maybe too much).  Moves the ball and helps with pace.  I don't think he's the long term problem here and I like Exum/Seth providing depth and helping to manage minutes here.  With this much depth, it is hard to find developmental minutes for Hardy.

What that leaves you with is THJ, GWill and DJJ eating up 3/4 minutes (and if Green is starting, we are calling Luka a 3 also).  GWill is 27 of 82 from the field in his last 11 games (.329%).  DJJ beats him at FG%, 3% and per minute rebounding and scoring.  GWill's body language hasn't been what it was to start the season (and Green's doesn't look great either, which makes you wonder).  I think GWill is miscast as a starting four here.  But, he can't be a three as he can't guard perimeter 3's/2's.  He's probably a valuable bench guy.    

I think at some point we'll need to decide between OMax and Hardy to get developmental minutes.  It is hard to find time for both.  Right now, the bigger need is for OMax to step up, but it feels like a pretty long term project.  Will we have the patience?  And, who do you play him with that also hides his issues on O?  I thought he looked more comfortable (or less lost) last night.   

In one of the recent games there was some complaining about defensive rotations and guys not knowing where to be.  Watch THJ sometime.  He squares up on guys and tries hard and we all think he's playing D.  But, watch him away from the ball.  It isn't good.  It is the same old story.  We have 3 starters and a bunch of guys who are 5 - 9's in Green, THJ, DJJ and GWill.  We need a starting four and we need better at the backup 5 (especially on those nights when Lively has foul issues).  That Iztok video you posted makes a fantastic point.  The way Lively is developing, by the end of next season (assuming we get that one more guy who pushes GWill to the bench), we are going to be trouble.

Hardy has been the biggest disappointment of the season thus far.  I expected he'd become our number 3 scorer this season.  I was very wrong.  I think we should send him to the G-league for a while so he can work on his handle and his defense.  Both are bad right now.  I think his trade value has plummeted and we're better off trying to rehab him here.  In positive news, THJ has played reasonably well for us so it's good that we didn't trade him.  THJ has been our 3rd or 4th best player despite his flaws.

The other big disappointment this season is Josh Greens defense.  I'm still a Josh Green fan but his defense is not impactful right now despite the obvious effort.  Coaching needs to be better.  Josh Green has the athleticism and motor to be a very good defensive player.  If this doesn't improve, it's a failure of the coaches (as well as a failure of Green himself)

Our biggest need is size.  As our two power forwards are undersized (Williams and DJJ), we need a backup center who can compensate.  We require a backup big who protects the rim and is a rebounding machine.  I believe Powell is still a useful player but it just doesn't work with him playing next to an undersized power forward who doesn't rebound.  I'd prefer to obtain the backup center for cheap.  Andre Drummond seems the most appropriate candidate.  I'd even be fine with bringing Hassan Whiteside back from China.

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

Given that everyone seems to be in agreement that the obvious places to improve are the wings and backup center (which is a weird situation to evaluate with Maxi constantly hurt) it’s interesting to think about what this roster would have looked like if you swapped out the names we got/stuck with in DJJ/Williams/Green for names that were rumored at times Thybulle/Bruce Brown/PJ Washington. Feels like the front office is on the right track, just ended up not getting the names they wanted. What’s going to be really interesting is to see how we navigate all of this financially if Green and Williams don’t develop into contender level starters. Owing that duo 25-28 mil a year the three seasons after this is not sustainable if they prove to be no higher than bench level players.

Also curious if anyone can help me understand what (if any) sort of extension we could possibly negotiate with DJJ? The most concerning thing right now is that our best wing seems to be the one who is on an expiring vet min contract. He clearly fits well next to Luka and has proven so far to be a way better screen navigator than Green which is what is preventing me from buying into Green as the longterm fit (although it’s a skill he can still learn).

[StrandedOnBeauboisHill]

It’s funny to think going into this season I was so prepared to watch Green/Williams be a better version of the Bullock/DFS combo while being incredibly concerned about Lively playing up to the level as a starting center…

[mvossman]

Given that everyone seems to be in agreement that the obvious places to improve are the wings and backup center (which is a weird situation to evaluate with Maxi constantly hurt) it’s interesting to think about what this roster would have looked like if you swapped out the names we got/stuck with in DJJ/Williams/Green for names that were rumored at times Thybulle/Bruce Brown/PJ Washington. Feels like the front office is on the right track, just ended up not getting the names they wanted. What’s going to be really interesting is to see how we navigate all of this financially if Green and Williams don’t develop into contender level starters. Owing that duo 25-28 mil a year the three seasons after this is not sustainable if they prove to be no higher than bench level players.

Also curious if anyone can help me understand what (if any) sort of extension we could possibly negotiate with DJJ? The most concerning thing right now is that our best wing seems to be the one who is on an expiring vet min contract. He clearly fits well next to Luka and has proven so far to be a way better screen navigator than Green which is what is preventing me from buying into Green as the longterm fit (although it’s a skill he can still learn).

Williams played 25 minutes a game from the bench on a contender. That is easily worth the MLE which is basically what they are both getting paid. 

Holding on to DJJ will be about our exceptions. My guess is he he will be somewhere between tax MLE and standard MLE