Are you satisfied with the offseason (so far)

[Jakeospikez]

Yes I am very satisfied with the offseason because I include the decision to tank last season as a part of it. I agree with their moves and I also agree with not overpaying for very mediocre "starting" players. GW is a great pickup because he is pretty much on the MLE and can easily slide into a comfortable bench role if/when OMax is ready to start. I also do not think Kyrie's window is as small as everyone thinks it is. Lots of players are still playing at an allstar level in their mid 30s and he just turned 31. This season is probably a developmental season because the Mavs won't actually be legit top tier contenders without Lively and OMax being starter quality role players, but I see next season as the time to push hard for a title. Should be able to make the playoffs and get some young guys valuable playoff exp this season. Should have expirings to work with this TDL/Next offseason to do something also especially if Holmes' value is rebuilt some.

Also with regards to Luka being impatient, this is just my personal conspiracy theory but imo the Mavs were stealth tanking for a large portion of last season. I'm not exactly sure when I don't really care that much about it to dig into it, but probably pretty early once they saw the team lose Brunson and also the quality+depth of this draft class. Imagine having no picks if it went to the Knicks instead of Lively+OMax, would be in a horrible spot making bad trades for mediocre players instead of operating from a position of strength (10th pick in a stacked class). Coaches definitely were tanking earlier than the final stretch. I don't think players were tanking but I do think Luka was probably in on it some too. What instantly convinced me was the post-TDL game vs the Timberwolves which was critical for seeding. I was watching this game very closely like most fans cause we just got Kyrie and wanted to see how everything would go etc and it took Kyrie going nuclear in the 4th to even make it close. As I was watching the game, the only thing that ever made sense to me was they were tanking. Mavs never really bothered not trying gameplan against Gobert at all and had no issue playing the worst matchup into him (Powell & Bullock as C/PF). Maxi was out injured (how about on purpose?) but this team that historically dating back to Carisle teams went 5 out on Gobert and just came off beating them in a playoff series (2 games without Luka even) suddenly just decides to play Powell into him and get dumpstered? Most of the complaints about Kidd last season were rotations and bad rotations are a decent way to stealth tank. Kidd is known for manipulating the business side of things as well so we'll see how he does this season but I anticipate it'll be much closer to year 1 than last season, so he gets a mulligan from me.

                           Mins    FG    3pt    FT    Off  Def   Reb  Ast   TO   Stl   Blk  PF  +/-    Pts
27 Rudy GobertC 29:43    9-9    0-0   3-5    3    11     14    1      3     0     0    3   +17   21

7 Dwight PowellC 14:29   2-2     0-0   1-2    0     1       1    1      0     0     0    4    -15    5

Luka put up great individual stats keeping games close, but majority of the time the game was on the line he settled for a step back 30 footer over and over. Also constantly complained to refs and didn't get back on defense. Imo him saying he wasn't having fun was because he wasn't trying to win every game. They stealth tanked enough to seem like they were still in the race, getting up to the 4th seed, but they were never more than a few games out from falling into the 10th pick.

If the Mavs decided very early to stealth tank, I think that is great cause they learned their lesson. They NEVER did this during the Dirk era and suffered through poor rosters for the entire back end of his career digging through scraps. Dirk/Luka can easily carry any team to a bottom 4 seed and get bounced early but that is not the correct move. Treadmilling is the worst thing a team can do. Garnett Twolves suffered through this too. Will see what happens this coming season, but I'll be keeping an eye on a few things. Luka is already showing 1 sign of major change that is very different from last season and that is lots of workout videos and getting into bubble shape. If he also has an attitude change with refs and gets back on defense more frequently that will be all that I need to see really. Better end game plays than constant contested step backs also would be key. Also the nonchalant attitude from the FO on Kidd and Kidd's whole demeanor in press conferences all suggest stealth tank to me, which again, fine with me, good job if that was the plan from the getgo.

[hakeemfaan]

No issues with the Kyrie or Exum or Seth signings.

I am one of the few who was not happy with the draft. The idea was great on what they did with the trades but if you turn #10 into a pick who is two years away in a league where that type of player even if developed is already a bit devalued. ( pure defensive center) then I don’t see how anyone can justify that other than trying desperately to drink into the Nico koolaid.

If going after projects or question marks anyway, I would have gone for the most talented player at both the spots they picked than pick positions of need.

[cow]

No issues with the Kyrie or Exum or Seth signings. 

I am one of the few who was not happy with the draft. The idea was great on what they did with the trades  but if you turn #10 into a pick who is two years away in a league where that type of player even if developed is already a bit devalued. ( pure defensive center)  then I don’t see how anyone can justify that other than trying desperately to drink into the Nico koolaid. 

If going after projects or question marks anyway, I would have gone for the most talented player at both the spots they picked than pick positions of need.

No idea what to think of Lively.  The one summer league game I saw was really underwhelming but it is summer league.  On the bright side, I'd put good money that ten years from now, redrafts will have O'Max in the top 10 of the class.

[KillerLeft]

If going after projects or question marks anyway, I would have gone for the most talented player at both the spots they picked than pick positions of need.

Many, MANY people, not just Mavs fans, thought both players were taken later than they should have been and were both outstanding values. 

I am noticing a trend of distaste with Lively, specifically. People seem to really not like him (no idea why, he checks every box I’d want in a center) and are bending narratives to justify why it was a bad pick. I keep watching him, hoping to see what other people dislike. Is it that he’s smart? Fast? Quick? Long? Defensive minded? Is it that he knows what he’s going to be asked to do in the NBA and seems to be focused on his ACTUAL job description that turns people off? TRULY, I DO NOT GET IT. 

I like Lively MORE than the alternatives, with or without the “position of need” angle. I think O-Max might be the steal of the entire draft. We get it - you wanted Whitmore. Obviously, the Mavs weren’t the only ones worried about taking him. Maybe he ends up being great, idk. But the target you’d have them hit to satisfy you seems to be a little small.

[KillerLeft]

The most detailed reporting on an alternate draft night plan was a trade with Atlanta that, apparently, the Mavs considered:

Trade #10, Josh Green and (I assume) THJ for #15 and Capela.

Are there REALLY people here who would’ve preferred that path? That’s what was out there.

[hakeemfaan]

It is not about just Whitmore. To me it is the #10 pick which is a pretty high pick. You can’t take raw , at best projected defensive centers there hoping it pans out in a couple of years. Not when the league has moved on from that type of a player being a core piece. Core pieces are skill pieces. Lawson , Howard (if they had not traded down). already look more skilled.

OMax was a late riser who moved from mid 2nd round to where the Mavs picked him. If he pans out, yes it is a good draft but let’s see. Just saying that the Celts were ready to pick him is not a great argument bevcause then the same can be said about Whitmore and how quite a few teams were trying to get back into the late teens to pick him.

I am always a believer in talent first in the draft and address positions of need in free agency.

Also this poll is about our individual opinions and I am sharing mine. I would love f it turns out I am wrong because we are all diehard Mavs fans at the end of the day.

Edit. I meant Wallace who went at 10. Not Lawson.

[KillerLeft]

It is not about just Whitmore.  To me it is the #10 pick which is a pretty high pick. You can’t take raw , at best projected defensive centers there hoping it pans out in a couple of years. Not when the league has moved on from that type of a player being a core piece. Core pieces are skill pieces. Lawson , Howard (if they had not traded down). already look more skilled. 

OMax was a late riser who moved from mid 2nd round to where the Mavs picked him. If he pans out, yes it is a good draft but let’s see. Just saying that the Celts were ready to pick him is not a great argument bevcause then the same can be said about Whitmore and how quite a few teams were trying to get back into the late teens to pick him.

I am always a believer in talent first in the draft and address positions of need in free agency. 

Also this poll is about our individual opinions and I am sharing mine. I would love f it turns out I am wrong because we are all diehard Mavs fans at the end of the day.

Sure, you are entitled to your opinion. I just do not understand it.

I agree with your opinion about taking centers high. Ayton and Bagley were both HORRIBLE picks. Just AWFUL. Lively will be better than either one of those dudes, imo, and #12 isn’t all that “high”, is it? I mean, you might have a point if that’s all they did, but they smartly recognized that they could get their guy a couple of picks later while dumping Bertans. Difficult for me to find fault in that. 

And, rather than trumpet a TPE that goes unused, the Mark Cuban special, they used it immediately to make another 1st appear out of thin air. With it, they chose a player that the next couple of teams were salivating over. The Mavs, for a change, swooped in out of nowhere to steal a draft darling. It was Desmond Bane in reverse. 

The bad money they took on to make this all happen actually has a plausible chance of being rehabilitated. When it comes to the “fallen angel” type, position of need is EVERYTHING. You’re not going to go out of your way and change your play style in order to rehab an asset’s value, but if what he can do actually fits into a need you have within your scheme? THAT has a chance to work. 

Other than the Luka/Brunson draft, this might have been my favorite as a Mavs fan.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

There weren’t any centers in this draft outside of Lively. The second center taken was pick #31 James Nnaji. I don’t think he was the 12th best player in the draft but mocked that high because of the lack of big men.

Fans usually grade a draft as good if the team picks for need. I think that and the trading is why everyone is so hyped about the draft. We need defense and got two defensive prospects.

Reality is the draft grade always ends up based on how good the player you took is and how good the players you passed on are. We won’t know for a few years even though everyone pretends to be a scout.

[KillerLeft]

You know who I think had a bad draft? Charlotte, for sure, and MAAAAAYBE SA.

Scott Henderson is the only dude I’ve seen so far who I’m positive is going to flourish in his expected role. O-Max might be the 2nd guy on that list.

Obviously, it’s going to take some time. They’re ALL just kids.

---

There weren’t any centers in this draft outside of Lively. The second center taken was pick #31 James Nnaji. I don’t think he was the 12th best player in the draft but mocked that high because of the lack of big men.

Fans usually grade a draft as good if the team picks for need. I think that and the trading is why everyone is so hyped about the draft. We need defense and got two defensive prospects.

Reality is the draft grade always ends up based on how good the player you took is and how good the players you passed on are. We won’t know for a few years even though everyone pretends to be a scout.

I like Lively because I like Lively. I didn’t even consider the 5 a burning house, as you know.

[hakeemfaan]

Sure, you are entitled to your opinion. I just do not understand it.

I agree with your opinion about taking centers high. Ayton and Bagley were both HORRIBLE picks. Just AWFUL. Lively will be better than either one of those dudes, imo, and #12 isn’t all that “high”, is it? I mean, you might have a point if that’s all they did, but they smartly recognized that they could get their guy a couple of picks later while dumping Bertans. Difficult for me to find fault in that. 

And, rather than trumpet a TPE that goes unused, the Mark Cuban special, they used it immediately to make another 1st appear out of thin air. With it, they chose a player that the next couple of teams were salivating over. The Mavs, for a change, swooped in out of nowhere to steal a draft darling. It was Desmond Bane in reverse. 

The bad money they took on to make this all happen actually has a plausible chance of being rehabilitated. When it comes to the “fallen angel” type, position of need is EVERYTHING. You’re not going to go out of your way and change your play style in order to rehab an asset’s value, but if what he can do actually fits into a need you have within your scheme? THAT has a chance to work. 

Other than the Luka/Brunson draft, this might have been my favorite as a Mavs fan.

I mentioned that I liked the moves itself to move down and get a TPE but not the execution in the draft. Actually let me clarify. At #24 or whatever pick they used to get OMax, I would be lying if I said that bothered me. It is a low first round oick and I can’t blame GMs if the pick doesn’t pan out. 

My problem is to start draft night they had pick #10.  They ended up going for a defensive center.  One who is very raw.  Offensive skill is where the league is headed. Just because we already have two very skilled players who are not great defensively, to me is not a reason to pick a raw player who even if he pans out cannot be a core piece by himself. If you are talking a defensive forward or a guy like Draymond who can handle the ball quite a bit then ok.  Skill at the offensive end should be a priority when you pick that high because that is how the league has been for quite a few years now. 

Ayton and Bagley didn’t pan out and there again it was because the teams went for positional need arguing they had Booker and Fox who they felt made Luka redundant.  That’s exactly what I am referring to. Of course there was no Luka on the board here but the point still stands. You go for offensive skill when picking that high.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

In terms of gettin a 3rd best player next to Luka and Kyrie, the two best assets were this years #10 pick and the 2027 1st. Perhaps nothing really materialized with the #10 so the front office did they best they could. I think the reason it’s only a B off-season for some of us is because this team ain’t going anywhere with Josh Green or Grant Williams as the third best player. Both guys are barely starting level players. We’re left hoping the better fitting pieces can outshine the lack of a talent upgrade.

Plus all 4 centers on the roster have MAJOR question marks. At least getting a guy like Capela raises the floor of the team, which is why the Mavs still seem to be so desperately trying.

Right now, I can’t say with certainty this is even a playoff team, so how the hell can I give the off-season an A?

[KillerLeft]

I do not agree that #10 is high, at least in the way that’s being used here. Every draft is different, and in THIS one there were exactly three “high” picks.

Maybe I’m wrong about this, but I also don’t think Lively was a reach because of “need”…I think trading #10 and Josh Green for Capela would’ve been the move if they couldn’t see past need.

All these people around here (not directed at present converters) bitching and complaining because the Mavs can’t ever find a rim-protector or a rebounder. Well, HERE’S one who MOVES well enough to make it actually plausible that he can be ON THE FLOOR when you need the rim-protected. When you need that rebound. Now, sure, maybe he doesn’t get there, but I’m sorry, while I agree that the typical dinosaur center has been devalued and not something to spend real resources on (see everything I’ve written this summer about Ayton) guys with Lively’s full set of abilities actually do NOT seem common to me.

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

---

I like Lively because I like Lively. I didn’t even consider the 5 a burning house, as you know.

…and some of us don’t and see it as a need based pick. 

Cant be handing out As because the team drafted for need.

He can move his feet and block shots but he can’t finish chippies around the room and gran the ball in traffic there’s multiple facets to being a basketball player.

I said before the draft I saw Lively as a long term project and didn’t think the Mavs could use that asset on a long term project on a team with Luka and Kyrie. Not gonna become a homer after the draft. Sure didn’t see all these opinions from people about how much they LOVE Lovely before the draft. Not directed at you killerleft but predraft it felt like 1/3 of the fan base wanted Lively.

[hakeemfaan]

KL. 10 is a high pick. If you want to preach patience and ask me to wait and see how Lively pans out as opposed to other players we could have got, I can agree with you.

However 10 is a high pick and it is totally fair to judge Nico a few years from now if he badly missed on that pick. Mid 20s. Not so much. No blame there if you whiff.

[KillerLeft]

In terms of gettin a 3rd best player next to Luka and Kyrie, the two best assets were this years #10 pick and the 2027 1st. Perhaps nothing really materialized with the #10 so the front office did they best they could. I think the reason it’s only a B off-season for some of us is because this team ain’t going anywhere with Josh Green or Grant Williams as the third best player. Both guys are barely starting level players. We’re left hoping the better fitting pieces can outshine the lack of a talent upgrade.

Plus all 4 centers on the roster have MAJOR question marks. At least getting a guy like Capela raises the floor of the team, which is why the Mavs still seem to be so desperately trying.

Right now, I can’t say with certainty this is even a playoff team, so how the hell can I give the off-season an A?

So you thought that after years of moves that didn’t work, loads of collateral damage and veeeeerrry few assets they were going to tank for a week and then turn the #10 pick into a 3rd star, vaulting themselves into instant contention?

They weren’t going to contend this year. That move isn’t out there, because it doesn’t exist. I mean, trade everything they did this summer, all of it, and add Pascal Siakim to last year’s team. Is that a contender? 

What they did will make this year WAY more fun to watch this season, will improve them in some very key areas and has an almost 100% chance of improving their ability to make themselves contenders next year or the year after. That is SOOOOOOOO much better than another year of trying to fix the Hoover Dam with duct tape, especially since the duct tape was running out!

[RoyTarpleysGhost]

People seem to be under the misconception that we turned one pick into two. That’s not what happened.

We took on two years of a bad contract for a guy that was third string in order to buy a pick in the 20s. I think we all like Omax so far but that wasn’t trading 10 for 12 and 24.

---

So you thought that after years of moves that didn’t work, loads of collateral damage and veeeeerrry few assets they were going to tank for a week and then turn the #10 pick into a 3rd star, vaulting themselves into instant contention?

They weren’t going to contend this year. That move isn’t out there, because it doesn’t exist. I mean, trade everything they did this summer, all of it, and add Pascal Siakim to last year’s team. Is that a contender? 

What they did will make this year WAY more fun to watch this season, will improve them in some very key areas and has an almost 100% chance of improving their ability to make themselves contenders next year or the year after. That is SOOOOOOOO. Ugh better than another year of trying to fix the Hoover Dam with duct tape, especially since the duct tape was running out!

No one said anything about a third star. You don’t have to make things up to win the argument. Your only rationale for thinking you are correct is that you personally like Lively. I personally do not love him and ALSO MORE IMPORTANTLY don’t think he’s on the same timeline as your two best players. Read that several times if you need it to marinate.

You do not have any kind of logical high ground like you are pretending you do.

I expected to go into next season pretty confident we’ll make the playoffs with one of the 3 best players in the world. Right now, I’m not.

[KillerLeft]

KL. 10 is a high pick.  If you want to preach patience and ask me to wait and see how Lively pans out as opposed to other players we could have got, I can agree with you.

However 10 is a high pick and it is totally fair to judge Nico a few years from now if he badly missed on that pick.  Mid 20s. Not so much. No blame there if you whiff.

I think it’s fair to judge that pick in a couple of years if he’s not contributing. Absolutely. 

What I don’t understand is the feeling that I’m getting that they reached for Greg Oestertsg because they needed a center. I think Lively is a GREAT looking young player. I don’t understand why we’re assuming that we need to be patient with Lively but are positive that the other guys they could’ve drafted wouldn’t have required the same patience.

Cason Wallace did NOT pop to me in that first game. Just a guy, to me.

[KillerLeft]

People seem to be under the misconception that we turned one pick into two. That’s not what happened.

We took on two years of a bad contract for a guy that was third string in order to buy a pick in the 20s. I think we all like Omax so far but that wasn’t trading 10 for 12 and 24.

---

That’s EXACTLY what they did though. They turned one pick into two. Literally, that’s what they did.

Without dumping Bertans, no TPE. Without the TPE, no Holmes. There was intent there, undeniably.

And that’s not even getting into the realities of what they’re looking at with the tax, first apron, all of that. 

They couldn’t have traded THJ or someone for Holmes to get #24, because SAC’s entire thing was to make money disappear in order to make room for the rest of the stuff they were planning, like that ridiculous Sabonis extension.

[KillerLeft]

No one said anything about a third star. You don’t have to make things up to win the argument. Your only rationale for thinking you are correct is that you personally like Lively. I personally do not love him and ALSO MORE IMPORTANTLY don’t think he’s on the same timeline as your two best players. Read that several times if you need it to marinate.

You do not have any kind of logical high ground like you are pretending you do.

I expected to go into next season pretty confident we’ll make the playoffs with one of the 3 best players in the world. Right now, I’m not.

That’s the closest I can come to understanding what you’re saying, sorry.

I do think Lively is good. No idea why you don’t, but ok. I suspect you and I just like different types of centers.

We’ve touched the timeline thing several times, but you’re just not getting my point about that (or who knows, maybe I’m just wrong). Kyrie’s timeline is irrelevant. Meaningless. Every single move they made is screaming that at us, and I’m glad. ALL of the moves made are right in line with Luka’s timeline. He’s 24. The WORST way of approaching this summer would’ve been to care about Kyrie’s timeline, like even a little. Now, that’s my opinion, but I’m not understanding how someone can be so down on the Kyrie thing, like you and I both were, and then be pissed that they’re approaching the situation, unexpectedly, with the proper level of perspective on how deeply to get into the Kyrie business. Everything they’ve done says “here’s your chance to help us, but we’re building around Luka, not you.” 

I don’t even know what “logical high ground” means in this context, other than it being a signal that you’re taking this to an uncool, personal place. I have zero clue what I’ve said to make you react like that, but I’m sure I’ve said absolutely zilch “to win an argument” or to convey anything less than respectful to you. 

Your LAST point is the one that matters, imo. I assumed that their situation was going to get WORSE this season (something like that #10 and Green for Capela is exactly what I expected). I do not care if they make the playoffs or not (think they will) as long as they’re putting together moves that indicate there’s some sort of PLAN in place.

[Jakeospikez]

No problem with the Lively pick here. First off, the drafting of this FO has been good so I'd give the scouts some leeway and not overreact before anyone has even played a single regular season game. Even with that, what Lively and OMax both showed in SL was great to me. There was that random article that tried to compare the center position to running backs which was full on retarded because the main reason running backs are so expendable is they take on too much punishment, generally very injury prone and fall off a cliff at around the time they get their 2nd contract while other positions are playing into their 30s. If you want to use the running back analogy, running backs that are good receivers and can play all 3 downs are higher value. Similarly, big men that can shoot are much higher value. Everyone wants Myles Turner on their team but no one is getting him. There aren't really any stretch centers being shopped around. Lively is nothing like Bagley. Bagley is a score first tweener and not a rim protector at all. Lively showed elite rim protection in college and it's already showing. He'd be more comparable to JJJ although JJJ showed way more shooting potential in college. If Lively had the same shooting numbers he probably goes top 5. The shooting does look legit though. FT form is great, he was perfectly swishing lots of FTs with nice arc in SL. Only a matter of time before he has a respectable enough shot defenders close out on him imo. No one is getting a rim protecting stretch big in FA or trade other than KP and he's weird because he was a max contract guy that had multiple knee surgeries and is injured all the time. Also I doubt the Wizards trade him if they weren't in fire sale tank mode. Lively also has demonstrated intangibles of work ethic and being a smart player, which is the downfall of a lot of others. He's set a couple of decleater type screens and shown some quick decisive passing rolling in SL which is another notch at his bbiq. Easily worth the pick to me from what I've seen so far and I don't mind waiting a few years for him to reach his potential. Luka is 24 and he could have his perfect big man for the next decade+.