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TDL Archived: The 2nd Rnd Pick Yankee Swap
If the Wiggins of the playoffs is the "real" Wiggins moving forward then IMO he is worth more than one future 1st. So if that is what you think and he is available then hell yes you jump on that deal suggested above. I truly thought he was the fire behind that championship run and was the best player on the court for large stretches in the DAL series.
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(08-17-2022, 11:14 AM)Kammrath Wrote: If the Wiggins of the playoffs is the "real" Wiggins moving forward then IMO he is worth more than one future 1st. So if that is what you think and he is available then hell yes you jump on that deal suggested above. I truly thought he was the fire behind that championship run and was the best player on the court for large stretches in the DAL series.
Am I remembering incorrectly that he was also a large plus in the championship too? I thought he was close to being the Finals MVP?
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(08-17-2022, 01:33 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Am I remembering incorrectly that he was also a large plus in the championship too?


He was +56 in the 4 wins...and in those 4 games GSW was -4 when he was on the bench.
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https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status...0285257728
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Photo 
(08-17-2022, 01:33 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: Am I remembering incorrectly that he was also a large plus in the championship too? I thought he was close to being the Finals MVP?

Steph wasn't going to get the Iggy treatment again but I wouldn't have batted an eye if Wiggins got MVP honors.  

The tricky part with evaluating Wiggins is that he might not be Batman or Robin, but he seems like a pretty damned good third option that has size and can play defense.  I don't think he's a guy that you want to put too much of an offensive load onto and lucky for him, GSW is about a perfect fit when they are healthy.  He had ups and down the season previous to this championship and looked indispensable during the title run.
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Marc Stein:


Quote:The Brooklyn Nets are waiting, with fingers crossed, in hopes that their patient approach leads to a change of heart from the disgruntled Kevin Durant about continuing his career as a Net.

The Utah Jazz are waiting for the New York Knicks to succumb to their long-held desire to acquire Donovan Mitchell and sweeten their Mitchell offer, which is said to feature five future first-round picks. That's right: Utah, specifically Danny Ainge, wants more.

The Los Angeles Lakers are waiting, as anxiously as the Nets, to see if some semblance of a Russell Westbrook trade market can still materialize … or if bringing Westbrook to camp, for all the tension it is likely to invite, is really their only short-term option.
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If the Lakers get desperate enough to do Westbrook and a lotto protected first for THJ, Bertans and Dwight we should do it. It clears all of our bad salary and gets us an asset if these bums can make playoffs.

It’s a temporary set back that will allow us to improve the roster big time. It’s pretty much a no brainer imo unless you have some kind of delusion about winning the title this year.
"The Dallas Mavericks must do everything they can to get Olivier-Maxence Prosper."
- IamDougieFresh (05-20-2023, 04:39 AM)
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I think with a generational talent like Luka you have to approach every year from here on out like you have a shot at the title. Because you do. And because you owe that to Luka, Kidd and the rest of the team. It’s part of what makes the Brunson situation so bad. This season should be marking the beginning of “Operation All-In” and instead it’s another season of “take a step back to take a step forward” pending any upcoming blockbuster trades. I don’t think Westbrook is that. Kyrie for instance puts us in the conversation with the contenders. Still likely a notch below though. I think LA will have to part with one of those juicy future picks to get rid of Westbrook. And they might have other options than our package if that’s the case.
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(08-22-2022, 04:36 PM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: I think with a generational talent like Luka you have to approach every year from here on out like you have a shot at the title. Because you do. And because you owe that to Luka, Kidd and the rest of the team. It’s part of what makes the Brunson situation so bad. This season should be marking the beginning of “Operation All-In” and instead it’s another season of “take a step back to take a step forward” pending any upcoming blockbuster trades. I don’t think Westbrook is that. Kyrie for instance puts us in the conversation with the contenders. Still likely a notch below though. I think LA will have to part with one of those juicy future picks to get rid of Westbrook. And they might have other options than our package if that’s the case.
I’m not ao sure that the 3 discussed players are so integral to our next season campaign as to say it ruins the team to trade them and clear so much salary that we have all kinds of options for how to move forward next year if we were to make that trade for RW and a pick. Having 5 picks next year would be such a game changer for our decision makers. Turning that into SGA and OGA would make us pretty high end contenders right off the bat.
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(08-22-2022, 03:24 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: If the Lakers get desperate enough to do Westbrook and a lotto protected first for THJ, Bertans and Dwight we should do it. It clears all of our bad salary and gets us an asset if these bums can make playoffs.

It’s a temporary set back that will allow us to improve the roster big time. It’s pretty much a no brainer imo unless you have some kind of delusion about winning the title this year.

1 "It’s a temporary set back".... Yes, it wastes a year of Luka's career. How is that acceptable?
2 "that will allow us to improve the roster big time"... How? RW is neither a player that will help, nor an avenue to one. And erasing other talent (THJ, Bertans) is NOT improvement - nor do you any longer have the ability to trade either of those for someone you might need.

(08-22-2022, 04:36 PM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: I think with a generational talent like Luka you have to approach every year from here on out like you have a shot at the title. Because you do. And because you owe that to Luka, Kidd and the rest of the team. 

This.
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(08-22-2022, 05:07 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: ... and clear so much salary that we have all kinds of options for how to move forward next year if we were to make that trade for RW ....

We've had this discussion before at length. Such a trade creates NO added opportunity. You don't get cap room, you're just not as far over the cap. Mark Cuban will thank you but it does nothing for the team's future.
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1. If you think the Mavs have greater than a 1% chance to win the title this year with this roster then you are kidding yourself.

2. Unless I’m a dummy (very possible) this trade can get you up to ~30 mil in cap space next year depending on who you bring back and their salaries.

3. Getting a pick allows us to trade multiple picks to upgrade talent.

4. We watched the Mavs front office essentially waste Dirk’s career. Let’s not do it again.

5. Luka is going to end up like Dame if something isn’t done.

6. We are already in a hole of lack of assets and cap space caused by the Porzingis trade and various other decisions.
"The Dallas Mavericks must do everything they can to get Olivier-Maxence Prosper."
- IamDougieFresh (05-20-2023, 04:39 AM)
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(08-22-2022, 06:49 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: 2. Unless I’m a dummy (very possible) this trade can get you up to ~30 mil in cap space next year depending on who you bring back and their salaries. .

We've had this discussed before in this forum. Mavs are about 45M over the cap right now. RW would erase the 11M of Powell that's going away anyhow, plus another 35M. But that lands them near the cap and they end up with the MLE to spend. You can do that anyhow without wasting a season.

I think you're way wrong in not seeing what Luka brings to the table. He can win now. Much needed experience was gained in the 2022 playoffs toward that end. He has most of what he needs already, just not enough playoff-playable pieces (team is too thin).

While not ideal trade chips, the opportunity to increase the value of THJ/DB for trade purposes, while their salary obligations are getting smaller and smaller, is a much better way to move forward than RW (who will be in the way this year, a negative in the playoffs, and gone without compensation in the summer) and that pair also has more potential to pay dividends this year than RW's carcass hogging the ball.

If LA is offering UNPROTECTED picks then I would reconsider. I want more than 1 pick.
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(08-22-2022, 05:07 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I’m not ao sure that the 3 discussed players are so integral to our next season campaign as to say it ruins the team to trade them and clear so much salary that we have all kinds of options for how to move forward next year if we were to make that trade for RW and a pick. Having 5 picks next year would be such a game changer for our decision makers. Turning that into SGA and OGA would make us pretty high end contenders right off the bat.

I would say none of those players are integral to this team individually, but you are taking a big hit to team depth, especially losing Timmy.

So that means we are worse this season (unless there is any chance we can convince Westbrook to come off bench when Luka is out, but I seriously doubt it).

I am also very skeptical that with 37 mil in cap the following offseason we can do any better than wood/Timmy/Maxi/Bertans.  Given our free agency history and the current trend of extensions, my guess is we do worse than keeping those 4 players.  So that means we are worse for next two seasons.

The argument at that point would be that at least we have shaved off the bad contracts and are now under the cap.  My argument would be that's actually a bad thing.  If you look at the average contender salary, its over 180 mil.  You almost have to go into the tax in order to be a true contender to pay for both stars and depth.  If we go below the salary cap, it will be very difficult to get near the tax line anytime soon.  If we do trade for a 30+ mil player, we would have to send out valuable depth just to salary match.

So we are basically removing depth for at least the next two seasons while making it difficult to get our salary up to contender level.  I'm not sure lottery protected first is worth that.
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If the Mavs FO has learned anything from the Brunson fiasco, they will extend Bullock, Maxi, and Wood (assuming he works out well) before they get to free agency. The key to the roster building game once you have the superstar is amassing talent, not clearing talent for cap room. ESPECIALLY talent that can contribute on both ends of the floor, at a reasonable price point.

"Too much talent" buys you another star if you can find one who will be a fit at the right trade price for you.

Winning (not tanking, or kicking the can down the road to a future year) makes your talent more desirable to other teams.

They also need to AGGRESSIVELY develop talent to create an ongoing flow of ever-improving talent at the bottom end of the roster. Even if they have a good team, they have to find ways to make player development part of the equation. That's the only way to keep the talent pool sustainable as players age out of usefulness OR become unaffordable.
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(08-22-2022, 06:28 PM)F Gump Wrote: We've had this discussion before at length. Such a trade creates NO added opportunity. You don't get cap room, you're just not as far over the cap. Mark Cuban will thank you but it does nothing for the team's future.
Yes we did and I kept posting numbers based on Kamm’s spreadsheet that showed the options and how much money and you glossed over it not saying anything about those numbers. I showed after RW expired we would be slightly under the cap. With 5 picks I bet we could trade SD and 3 picks for SGA, then RB and 2 picks for OGA. All that would take is getting around $17M under which as luck would have it, is Maxi’s cap hold. Options. You’re creative enough, I bet you could figure something out. I would hope our new cap guy was creative enough to figure out something as well. Not using the cap space for FAs, but for cap relief in trade.

I’d rather have SGA and OGA in 1 year than Bertans, THJ, Powell, RB, Maxi and SD. Wouldn’t you?

Edit:

Luka/SGA/DFS/OGA/Wood with a bench of vet min ring chasers to sprinkle in with Hardy/Green/McGee

Looks pretty good to me.
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(08-22-2022, 07:43 PM)mvossman Wrote: I would say none of those players are integral to this team individually, but you are taking a big hit to team depth, especially losing Timmy.

So that means we are worse this season (unless there is any chance we can convince Westbrook to come off bench when Luka is out, but I seriously doubt it).

I am also very skeptical that with 37 mil in cap the following offseason we can do any better than wood/Timmy/Maxi/Bertans.  Given our free agency history and the current trend of extensions, my guess is we do worse than keeping those 4 players.  So that means we are worse for next two seasons.

The argument at that point would be that at least we have shaved off the bad contracts and are now under the cap.  My argument would be that's actually a bad thing.  If you look at the average contender salary, its over 180 mil.  You almost have to go into the tax in order to be a true contender to pay for both stars and depth.  If we go below the salary cap, it will be very difficult to get near the tax line anytime soon.  If we do trade for a 30+ mil player, we would have to send out valuable depth just to salary match.

So we are basically removing depth for at least the next two seasons while making it difficult to get our salary up to contender level.  I'm not sure lottery protected first is worth that.
Max extend Wood as soon as you see the buy in and fit saves you $4M from his cap hold. Extend Maxi at $7M or less starting and extend that amount to $14.5M or more based on his starting amount. Don’t use the money to sign FAs but in trade for players better than your outgoing and more expensive to give cap relief and add picks to fill the gap in value. Get creative with it. Options.
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(08-22-2022, 08:07 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I’d rather have SGA and OGA in 1 year than Bertans, THJ, Powell, RB, Maxi and SD. Wouldn’t you?

No way. That's wasting years of Luka's career, constantly trying to assemble the talent to get to be a full competitor while casting aside the same sort of needed talent as you do so. You're stuck with a $130M roster, year after year being limited by the cap, and you need far more talent to have enough to compete. The $165M they have right now is the right ballpark, if they didn't have a couple of bloated salaries, and even with those mistakes they're maybe there.

Your plan is getting rid of talent now and becoming dependent on team later being willing to trade you what you need but that's so far out of your control -- eg if OKC says "We have no interest, we need SGA to grow with our young roster"  and TOR says "We're only trading OG for an elite center, and RB means nothing to us" then you're at a dead end.

By the way, I never "ignored" the numbers you suggested, but instead put them into the context of what they REALLY are -- ie what else it would REALLY cost, beyond the RW trade, to get any cap room beyond the MLE that you'd have anyway. Once you do realistic extensions for Maxi, Bullock, and Wood, there is no cap room to play with - you're an MLE team. Otherwise, you're stripping down the roster, and doing so means less talent and years to find a piece here and there to replace the very pieces you had and fiddle-farted away. That's not getting ahead, it's going backwards. We don't have years to wait -- the Luka Era has already started.
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(08-22-2022, 08:35 PM)F Gump Wrote: No way. That's wasting years of Luka's career, constantly trying to assemble the talent to get to be a full competitor while casting aside the same sort of needed talent as you do so. You're stuck with a $130M roster, year after year being limited by the cap, and you need far more talent to have enough to compete. The $165M they have right now is the right ballpark, if they didn't have a couple of bloated salaries, and even with those mistakes they're maybe there.

Your plan is getting rid of talent now and becoming dependent on team later being willing to trade you what you need but that's so far out of your control -- eg if OKC says "We have no interest, we need SGA to grow with our young roster"  and TOR says "We're only trading OG for an elite center, and RB means nothing to us" then you're at a dead end.

By the way, I never "ignored" the numbers you suggested, but instead put them into the context of what they REALLY are -- ie what else it would REALLY cost, beyond the RW trade, to get any cap room beyond the MLE that you'd have anyway. You're stripping down the roster, and doing so means less talent and years to find a piece here and there to replace it. That's not getting ahead, it's going backwards. We don't have years to wait -- the Luka Era has already started.
I edited the above post to show the lineup in 1 year with those 2 deals that could or could not happen. Either way, the battle cry is options and you keep saying there are none. Get creative with it. 


If the two teams aren’t interested we move on to the next disgruntled player. There’s tons of them every year. Who we have assembled right now will not get us to a championship and if they can it’s because of Luka which means there’s not much more that we need.
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(08-22-2022, 08:50 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I edited the above post to show the lineup in 1 year with those 2 deals that could or could not happen. Either way, the battle cry is options and you keep saying there are none. Get creative with it. 

I am saying your options are lessened (considerably), not increased, once you do an RW trade. You really gain nothing that you didn't already have, you lose some assets you can use creatively later on (as you say you wish for), and you handcuff yourself to a very-unlikely-to-succeed path.

Nor would the RW plan make those trades any more likely. Given the size of the contracts and the limits of your cap space, they'd be just as doable if you already had a giant payroll and did regular trade matching as they would with some modest cap room.

The problem is RW. He provides nothing now that is really helpful, and nothing later. And if you go the other way, you are better off by having a higher sum of contracts to work with in both amassing contracts and doing trades. Talent (not air) is what you need.
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