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This Season Was A Success
- This Season Was A Success
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This Season Was A Success
SleepingHero > 05-05-2022, 01:47 PM
Despite what has happened in games 1 and 2, and even if the Mavs get swept by the Suns, this season was a massive success by any objective measure.
As much as I hate what I'm watching and feel like the Mavs aren't playing well, the overarching narrative should be that this team was a huge success and some work has to be done to take the next step.
What were the main season objectives did we all talk about coming into the season? From my perspective they were:
- Make the playoffs with home court advantage
- Improve the team defense
- Figure out what to do with KP, either make him work or move on.
- Win a playoff series for the first time in over a decade
- Win 50 games
- Figure out Josh Green
- Get a secondary playmaker next to Luka.
But... Looking at that list, didn't the Mavs accomplish literally everything we set out to do? We're playing with house money at this point.
SO despite all the doom and gloom (coming from myself as well!), the Mavs did it. They literally had as good of a season as we all realistically hoped they could have.
They made the playoffs with home court for the first time since 2011. They won 50 games for the first time since 2015. They got the secondary playmaker we were pining for over the offseason by a Brunson improvement AND Dinwiddie (despite their shortcomings currently). Nico figured out what to do with KP and promptly moved on from him. The team defense is top 5 in the league and has been fantastic. Kidd has allowed Green to develop and despite his poor playoff debut, he had a heck of a year and flashed solid role player potential.
But most importantly they freaking got out of the first round which is a major accomplishment. We can poke holes as much as we want, but they did it.
So that's my sunshine pumping before game 3. It's needed. Whatever happens the Mavs had a successful year and we should be happy. - Make the playoffs with home court advantage
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RE: This Season Was A Success
michaeltex > 05-05-2022, 02:31 PM
I've made many of the same points in other threads. I think it's useful to have a stand alone discussion, I hope it will be positive but expect substantial negativity.
I would add another accomplishment...
Incorporate a new coaching staff. Which means developing trust and buying in to the concepts the coaches think will help make the team successful. It probably too until getting past the injuries and COVID issues before you could say things were taking root. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
Mavs2021 > 05-05-2022, 02:42 PM
I think this is pretty easy to sum up.
Was the individual season a success? YES.
Did we get any closer to the end goal of competing for a championship? NO.
Did we improve the front office infrastructure and culture? Probably, tbd.
This summer will be big for the new front office. How they approach the draft and free agency will tell us a lot about the future of the team. The pay-roll and assets of this team are a mess, and first steps need to be taken to improve upon it this summer. If we see more of the same useless short-termism, Luka might as well start packing his bags. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
cow > 05-05-2022, 02:56 PM
I think Luka can probably drag just about any roster construction to the playoffs. The biggest success for this organization was how they played against Utah with Luka sidelined.
I'd still hesitate to call the season a success as that seems like an incredibly low standard. Maybe you'd re-evaluate that if you didn't have a generational talent on your team. It doesn't feel like we are any closer to a championship team than in the previous two seasons and I'm not sure this team beats the those Clippers teams. The roster isn't likely to change very much either. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
Chicagojk > 05-05-2022, 03:13 PM
This was a fun season...hopefully one that is not over yet. For the first time in a while, I thought the team played really enjoyable basketball.
Although with a player of Luka's caliber, we need to start thinking championships. Even with the round 1 win, this team is behind my internal clock I set 3 years ago of progression. Some teams have jumped ahead of us unfortunately too. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
mvossman > 05-05-2022, 03:44 PM
(05-05-2022, 02:56 PM)cow Wrote: I think Luka can probably drag just about any roster construction to the playoffs. The biggest success for this organization was how they played against Utah with Luka sidelined.
I'd still hesitate to call the season a success as that seems like an incredibly low standard. Maybe you'd re-evaluate that if you didn't have a generational talent on your team. It doesn't feel like we are any closer to a championship team than in the previous two seasons and I'm not sure this team beats the those Clippers teams. The roster isn't likely to change very much either.
If you were of the opinion that this team was never going to win a championship with KP, and that dumping him was a necessary step back in order to move forward, then this season was clearly a success.
If you had told me at the beginning of the season that we would dump KP for a couple of bad contracts midseason just to get rid of him, I would have expected us to struggle to make the playoffs and assumed another first round exit at best. For us to have made that move and manage to get homecourt and make it to second round is progress.
I think the plan at this point has to be to make incremental improvements until some of these bad salaries are closer to expiration and we have access to all of our picks. The ideal summer would be to re-sign Brunson at a reasonable price (maybe he gets back down to 4/80 after this shit show series), sign Hartenstein for the tax MLE, make an good draft pick and waive a couple of players. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
cow > 05-05-2022, 03:55 PM
(05-05-2022, 03:44 PM)mvossman Wrote: If you were of the opinion that this team was never going to win a championship with KP, and that dumping him was a necessary step back in order to move forward, then this season was clearly a success.
You kicked the KP can down the road a bit though. Assuming he opts in, KP expires in '23-34. Assuming we keep Dinwiddie, he expires in '23-24. Bertans expires in '24-25. You are probably locked into Bertans contract unless you kick the can further down the road by giving up assets to dump him. You can argue the merits of Dinwiddie versus KP and I'd probably be in favor of Dinwiddie before the playoffs but if you factor in playoff performance, it's a wash. We still owe picks for trading for and trading away KP. I wouldn't call anything about the KP situation a success at this point. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
vfromlmf > 05-05-2022, 04:07 PM
I'm pleased with the modern rotation the team has settled into with two guards, two wings and a single big.
Was not a fan of clogged paint, KP/Kleber at power forward and a center rotation of Powell/WCS/Boban/Wright
Moving forward you have three guards capable of splitting 96 minutes in Luka, Brunson and Dinwiddie, with a young former lottery pick in Ntilikina backing them up. There's also positional versatility so all three can play together without giving up too much on the glass. We can always get better but Dinwiddie has fit in nicely. Overall, if these four are the top four guards next year, I'm happy. If an upgrade is available he needs to be a superstar or a dominate point of attack defender who can score a little in the playoffs. A Pat Beverly, Lou Dort type.
On the wings you have DFS, Bullock, THJ and a young developing Green to split 96 minutes. Bullock is a keeper. Overall this group is a solid group of role player, and they can be better with a healthy THJ and Green continuing to improve, but an impact player here would do wonders. Despite that, if these four are the top four wings next year, I'm good with it. If an upgrade is available, I don't know who it would be, but he needs to be an impact two-way scorer.
Obviously this team needs to get better play from its bigs. Powell is serviceable during the regular season and Kleber has been great but both players are so one dimensional that defenses simply change their pick and roll coverage based on whichever guy is in the game. I'd like to see this team add some size and simply upgrading Powell with another roller who can finish and protect the paint would help. You'd like to find a guy who can rebound, protect the paint and shoot 3s but those guys are hard to find. Ironically, I'd trade Dinwiddie and Bertans for a guy like KP, just not, you know, actually KP.
I don't see Bertans as a long term fit due to his lack of defense and none of the other guys add any value.
Going into the offseason, you explore all options and trade anyone not named Luka to improve this team. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
mvossman > 05-05-2022, 04:17 PM
(05-05-2022, 03:55 PM)cow Wrote: You kicked the KP can down the road a bit though. Assuming he opts in, KP expires in '23-34. Assuming we keep Dinwiddie, he expires in '23-24. Bertans expires in '24-25. You are probably locked into Bertans contract unless you kick the can further down the road by giving up assets to dump him. You can argue the merits of Dinwiddie versus KP and I'd probably be in favor of Dinwiddie before the playoffs but if you factor in playoff performance, it's a wash. We still owe picks for trading for and trading away KP. I wouldn't call anything about the KP situation a success at this point.
I think you are missing the point. I am not arguing anything positive regarding KP including the trade to dump him (which I thought was poor timing and we gave up too much). My argument is that we knew we were going to lose overall talent when dumping KP and yet we still outperformed last year. Add in losing THJ for the year (which I think was a hit) and it is more impressive.
The Bertans contract is a hit, but it is an interesting candidate for stretch waiving. Because his last year is only 5 mil guaranteed, he could be stretched for 7 years at a little over 5 mil a year. We basically do that and stop doing the stupid small contracts for useless players (Boban, Brown, Burke). -
RE: This Season Was A Success
cow > 05-05-2022, 04:27 PM
(05-05-2022, 04:17 PM)mvossman Wrote: I think you are missing the point. I am not arguing anything positive regarding KP including the trade to dump him (which I thought was poor timing and we gave up too much). My argument is that we knew we were going to lose overall talent when dumping KP and yet we still outperformed last year. Add in losing THJ for the year (which I think was a hit) and it is more impressive.
I get where you are coming from. KP was an addition by subtraction. Granted, Dinwiddie outperformed my expectations during the regular season. And speaking of addition by subtraction, there is probably a conversation to be had around THJ and if this team missed his on court presence. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
khaled1987 > 05-05-2022, 04:44 PM
I agree that it is a success based on the reasons above.
BUT.....
Success is one thing, massive success is another.
You see teams like Memphis leapfrog us, and I can't say it is "massive ". Not with teams like Denver & Clippers suffering from injuries that destroyed our season.
Let's see how it goes -
RE: This Season Was A Success
omahen > 05-05-2022, 06:36 PM
I am writing this under assumptions that Mavs won't win the series against Phoenix. I hope I am wrong.
Looking at the basic goal of winning a first round series, the team was successful. Other than that I was not impressed. Another two team building windows went by with Mavs standing pat or not improving the team other than improving around the edges. Max cap space and result was a big contract for THJ who doesn't fit well with Luka, Brown which was a total miss and a good signing in Bullock. Sure they moved on from KP at TDL, but on court value of players received doesn't look good in the playoffs. So we will have to see if their increased flexibility that was highlighted so strongly will actually bring something or will we be looking at basically same team in October after a 7th consecutive window.
I don't agree they figured out Green. He brought some energy in the regular season, but totally dissapeared in playoffs. He has zero attempts in 22 minutes against Phoenix. He plays defense and provides big energy, but he is awful on the offensive end. Are we really sure Mavs found a secondary creator next to Luka. Sure Mavs don't have much choice but resign Brunson, but are we really sure Luka-Brunson can ever be good enough to seriously contend. I am pretty sure Mavs will need to overpay to keep Brunson in the bird rights trap they are in. Unless of course he will improve a lot in next years.
Defense has improved a lot, but has been not successful against Phoenix. A small sample to figure out reasons for me, but things to consider could be overload due to heavy minutes in the first round, inexperience, Phoenix better coached or just not strong enough roster.
The management divorces were not pretty. Carlisle is more or less blamed for most of the problems from past season, which is not a nice thing to do to a coach you had employed for 117 years. Creating myths like KP and Brunson were held back by him against Clippers last year and similar. Donnie divorce is horrible big time. Something which is really difficult to understand how this people worked so closely for 222 years to be able to sunk so low after the divorce. Something is seriously wrong with the organization culture and I am far from convinced that anything has really changed.
Personally I want the team to be ambitious. Mavs act like they are, which I like. Problem is, they never seem to execute. Not even once in 6 consecutive windows. I am sure Wright was nowhere near plan A in 2019 and Bullock was nowhere near plan A in 2021. In a player driven league the key is not only in executing the opportunity but also in creating one. I didn't have a feeling Mavs were actually taken serious at any point by the players Mavs more or less openly targeted and planned for in last three years (Giannis, Kemba, Lowry,...).
Mavs owe only one pick in next 8 years, have a large spectre of different contracts so I would never be satisfied with an offseason where career reserve like Hartenstein is the main improvement. Btw - time to get Hartenstein was last two seasons, not now. Now he will be paid. Smart team signed him for this season and got great value from him, imho.
I think Mavs have a short window. Looking at current roster, Brunson, Luka and Green are the only three rotation players that wont be 30 or older next season. So you have about 2-3 seasons to add to this core and make them a contender. Since days of cap space are gone for several years to come and since draft picks will likely have low probability to add significant talent, trades are the only realistic way to make that happen.
Speaking of assets, Mavs owe only 1 pick in next 8 years, which means they can offer even 4 picks on draft night if right opportunity comes. They lack a high upside youngster on a rookie deal (I doubt Green has much of a value), but have a wide portfolio of contracts to offer. They have THJ and Dinwiddie who could be considered starters in right situations and have around neutral contracts. Powell and Maxi are on expiring deals and I would look hard for players that would improve what they bring. Bullock is also expiring if one wants (or cost controlled for two years) and he has very nice playoffs. So Mavs have plenty of ammo to construct an offer for good players. Perhaps not best superstars, but a tier or two below that is totally feasible.
I expect Mavs to remain ambitious, but the jury is out if the new FO will actually be able to first create (convince player he wants to be in Dallas) and later execute a deal. Are we finally going to see some serious upgrade of the talent level? Doesn't have to be top tier player, just a solid two way player capable of playing defense and creating for himself. Or will we just be entitled to read how Mavs want to bring (for example) Lillard who will be traded to team X of his choosing a week or two later? Again... -
RE: This Season Was A Success
Mavs2021 > 05-05-2022, 11:42 PM
(05-05-2022, 06:36 PM)omahen Wrote: Since days of cap space are gone for several years to come and since draft picks will likely have low probability to add significant talent, trades are the only realistic way to make that happen.
Sorry I pick out this one line out of a quality post, but this whole trades are the best and only way, so we got
Luka drafted
Brunson drafted
DFS undrafted free agent
Kleber undrafted free agent
Bullock free agent
then we have
overpaying Powell from a failed Rondo trade, losing drafted Crowder and picks in the process
overpaying THJ + Burke acquiring overpaid Dinwiddie + Bertans from a failed Porzingis trade and losing picks in the process
losing Seth Curry for Josh Richardson, after getting rid, overall once again losing picks in the process
S&T Delon Wright, after getting rid, once again losing many picks in the process
Given that we have pissed away draft picks for fun and negatively sabotaged our draft positions every year, one might even come to the conclusion that we are actually better at drafting than trading, cause I don´t see anybody we acquired in a real trade for the last decade that is a major contributor on a value contract. And the saddest part is that in every single trade we were the buyer. We didn´t get anything from the trades (okay the Seth trade in stage I, which we then paid back double in stage II).
This team is awful at every phase of asset management (drafting, trading, free agency). There is no other way to arrive at this point and the difference between the Mavs and franchises like the Kings or Magic for the last decade is one moment of enlightenment, when they picked the best young player in the world. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
cow > 05-05-2022, 11:53 PM
(05-05-2022, 11:42 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: Sorry I pick out this one line out of a quality post, but this whole trades are the best and only way, so we got
Luka drafted
Brunson drafted
DFS undrafted free agent
Kleber undrafted free agent
Bullock free agent
then we have
overpaying Powell from a failed Rondo trade, losing drafted Crowder and picks in the process
overpaying THJ + Burke acquiring overpaid Dinwiddie + Bertans from a failed Porzingis trade and losing picks in the process
losing Seth Curry for Josh Richardson, after getting rid, overall once again losing picks in the process
S&T Delon Wright, after getting rid, once again losing many picks in the process
Given that we have pissed away draft picks for fun and negatively sabotaged our draft positions every year, one might even come to the conclusion that we are actually better at drafting than trading, cause I don´t see anybody we acquired in a real trade for the last decade that is a major contributor on a value contract. And the saddest part is that in every single trade we were the buyer. We didn´t get anything from the trades (okay the Seth trade in stage I, which we then paid back double in stage II).
This team is awful at every phase of asset management (drafting, trading, free agency). There is no other way to arrive at this point and the difference between the Mavs and franchises like the Kings or Magic for the last decade is one moment of enlightenment, when they picked the best young player in the world.
I was actually putting together a post with successes on the current roster. Here is what I came up with.
2016: Dorian Finney-Smith Undrafted Free Agent
2017: Maxi Kleber Undrafted Free Agent
2018: Luka Doncic, Jalen Brunson Draft
2019: Seth Curry signing
2021: Luka Doncic Extension, Reggie Bullock Signing
2022: Dorian Finney-Smith Extension -
RE: This Season Was A Success
omahen > 05-06-2022, 01:45 AM
(05-05-2022, 11:42 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: This team is awful at every phase of asset management (drafting, trading, free agency). There is no other way to arrive at this point and the difference between the Mavs and franchises like the Kings or Magic for the last decade is one moment of enlightenment, when they picked the best young player in the world.
Probability of getting a top end talent Mavs need to complete the roster with draft picks in the twenties is very low. And even if they would really strike gold with this year pick, it would likely take a year or two before the guy could really contribute. Brunson needed almost 4 years to become what he is today - a solid starter. Mavs window is 2 to 3 years.
You and Cow are pointing previous draft success. But lets be honest. Other than top 5 pick Doncic, there is not a single top end talent. DFS and Brunson are solid starters acquired in a span of 6 years (since 2016). Maxi is a rotation player. I could argue that Mavs need 2 more players that are likely at least DFS or Brunson quality, if not better.
The only realistic way to make this team a contender are trades. Of course they need to be good. If you think Mavs are not capable of making a good move, then whats the point of discussion, really. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
SleepingHero > 05-06-2022, 09:00 AM
(05-05-2022, 06:36 PM)omahen Wrote: I expect Mavs to remain ambitious, but the jury is out if the new FO will actually be able to first create (convince player he wants to be in Dallas) and later execute a deal. Are we finally going to see some serious upgrade of the talent level? Doesn't have to be top tier player, just a solid two way player capable of playing defense and creating for himself. Or will we just be entitled to read how Mavs want to bring (for example) Lillard who will be traded to team X of his choosing a week or two later? Again...
Great post.
I do want to say I think they have figured out Green. Before the season, most of us thought Green would be out of the league in a year under Carlisle and he had no discernable qualities that were worth any investment. Now? He could potentially be a good rotation player. That is a HUGE improvement. Kidd found a role for him and Green produced.
Now relative to other players, Green didn't do much at all in terms of counting stats, but relative to where he started he took a massive leap. One could only hope he can have a similar leap next season (although development is rarely linear).
I'm not surprised Green is underperforming in the playoffs. It's a different game and he's still essentially a rookie who hasn't gotten comfortable.
Regarding the Mavs being ambitious (and failing), I agree with most of your points. The old regime blew opportunity after opportunity and failed to capitalize on what should've been the easiest time to build around Luka. So far the new regime hasn't been afraid to make moves.
I do think you're underplaying the pick protections. The Mavs on paper do have only 1 pick owed the next 8 years, but that 1 pick cancels out 3 others (2022 and 2024 and 2025) till it's conveyed. So in reality the Mavs have 2 picks they use till 2023 draft. They can get creative and try and remove the protections to open up all their picks like we've discussed but until then the Mavs are stuck with trade packages with only 1st for the next year or so.
This was a Donnie Nelson special. We were handicapped for years from the Rondo trade pick protections, and it seemed like he never learned his lesson.
In any case, I also see Lillard on the horizon. Despite his injuries and age he'd be a difference maker right now against the Suns. I don't know if he'd be worth a Paul George/Harden/AD level package though. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
omahen > 05-06-2022, 09:53 AM
(05-06-2022, 09:00 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: I do think you're underplaying the pick protections. The Mavs on paper do have only 1 pick owed the next 8 years, but that 1 pick cancels out 3 others (2022 and 2024 and 2025) till it's conveyed. So in reality the Mavs have 2 picks they use till 2023 draft.
They have 2022, 2027 and 2029 they can move without any limitations. This is basically a package that brought JRue. I think everything is just a question of what one believes Mavs need to become a contender. Assuming we can keep most of rotation players, some think Gobert brings us in the conversation. Some think any of Collins, Turner or even Holmes are enough. Personally I think a big wing like Jerami Grant and center like Holmes or better (Turner, Gobert,...) would do the job. All of these can be credible opinions and we will never unanimously agree which is best. Of course we have very little idea of what is available and what those players want, but I think it is reasonable to think that mentioned combinations can be achieved with the assets Mavs have. So why talking about waiting, having our chance in 2023? This is the part I don't understand. If one thinks Gobert is the missing piece, you pull the trigger, even if he costs 2 or 3 picks. I am saying for years now - that last move will always be risky. You can't build a contender without taking that risk and spending those picks, imho. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
ThisIStheYear > 05-07-2022, 08:58 AM
It is a successful season, but how much so remains to be seen.
Luka has learned a great lesson on what it takes to get to the next level and will hopefully come into next season with a world class NBA body. Maybe he can learn some on court restraint too and really go to the stratosphere.
The Mavs offloaded KP and even landed a decent player for him. Widdie will be better next season after more time to get right from a very major injury.
The Mavs finally made a first rate off season signing with Bullock. I bet the Knicks would like a do over on whatever roster management decisions led to that.
The Luka, JB, DFS, Reggie core has emerged. If the Mavs find a top 10 center, they’ll be set.
The Mavs did figure out Josh Green. He’s bad. Frankie is the better prospect. Keep Frankie and throw Josh into a trade in the off-season.
The Mavs learned THJ is a useless $20 million expenditure and that they’re better off with a two way player (Reggie) getting his minutes. Hopefully he brings back something on the trade market, but he has to go.
Jason Kidd can coach and the staff are first rate.
The Mavs are one player and good injury luck away now. It has to be a really good player, but finding a borderline all star caliber two way center these days isn’t impossible. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
Jommybone > 05-07-2022, 04:37 PM
1. A rough start to the season, but an impressive recovery and improved playoff seeding.
2. A rough start to the playoffs (first round), but an impressive step up from the #2 guy, the defense, and the coaching staff.
3. A rough start to the second series, but an impressive game 3. [Edit: and game 4!]
Only way this isn’t a successful season is if you’re one of those annoying Cowboys fans who thinks their team should win the championship every year. Teams with a better chance of winning THIS season’s championship? Heat, Bucks, Warriors, Suns, nobody else. -
RE: This Season Was A Success
loki > 05-07-2022, 04:49 PM
They've made some necessary changes. I'm not sold on Nico or convinced that Cuban has given up any control, but it was certainly time to move on from Donnie/RC. It's also a huge positive that the KP era is over.
However, the difficult part of re-signing JB and bringing in 1-2 more starting caliber players still remains. Fortunately they managed to win a playoff series, which reduces my concern that Cuban will be trying to dodge a tax bill rather than improve the roster.
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