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I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
- I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
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I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
StepBackJay > 04-29-2022, 05:34 PM
Kamm said Gobert was a top 10 player that we needed to pay max money to. I said he wasn't and I was so very right, so right indeed. Gobert is a good regular season player but he is not a playoff player. Hopefully the Mavs are swindled into getting him next year. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
MrGoat > 04-29-2022, 07:13 PM
(04-29-2022, 05:34 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: Kamm said Gobert was a top 10 player that we needed to pay max money to. I said he wasn't and I was so very right, so right indeed. Gobert is a good regular season player but he is not a playoff player. Hopefully the Mavs are swindled into getting him next year.
For the right package I'd actually be interested. I actually think Kidd's defense would work better with Gobert because we actually play perimeter defense so he could actually focus on just locking down the paint. However Gobert really is pretty bad on offense, he doesn't have good hands and he's indecisive around the basket. Utah gave him the ball less than ever this year and it resulted in the number one offense, Utah fans told me that Mitchell not passing him the ball was by design and after that series I believe it. If Powell was part of the trade I think Luka would miss him in that regard, integrating Gobert into the offense would be frustrating -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
SleepingHero > 04-29-2022, 10:21 PM
LOL @ the title.
I think this series just showed what Gobert is. His presence alone affected games 1 and 4 and what was most likely the reason why they won those games. He also has hands of stone and I'm shocked at how many passes he dropped down low. He couldn't score and punish teams from going small.
He also wasn't good enough on closeouts to stop the 3pt barrage from the corner. He's a great, but flawed, player. Worth 40 mil? Maybe on the right night. Most of the time no...
I will say what would Gobert look like on a team with competent perimeter defenders? What does he look like with a transcendent passer that can find him anywhere and everywhere in the roll? I mean Luka just amplifies Powell, imagine him with Gobert...
I wouldn't mind a trade for him. But I wouldn't pay much. THJ+Bertans+2022 1st. Other than that I'd rather go look somewhere else. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
MFFL > 04-29-2022, 11:13 PM
(04-29-2022, 10:21 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: I will say what would Gobert look like on a team with competent perimeter defenders? What does he look like with a transcendent passer that can find him anywhere and everywhere in the roll? I mean Luka just amplifies Powell, imagine him with Gobert...
I wouldn't mind a trade for him. But I wouldn't pay much. THJ+Bertans+2022 1st. Other than that I'd rather go look somewhere else.
Exactly my take.
Gobert with that rim protection and fantastic picks combined with a passer who can actually get the ball EXACTLY where Gobert can handle the pass? Yes please!
But I wouldn't pay much for him either. THJ+Bertans+2022 1st sounds fair. Maybe kick Powell their way for a contract that Utah wants to unload -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
burekemde > 04-30-2022, 05:15 AM
You can't be a one-way player if you are the best. It's a huge liability for your team. The biggest problem with Gobert is not only that he can't guard the perimeter. This disadvantage is not there when proper schemes are made, as he is a monster inside in the paint that dominates defensively, arguably the best defensive player in the paint. The major problem with Gobert is that he is bad on offense. Shaq said it also. The main issue is he has no offense. If you look in the past days of NBA, the same was true, players needed to produce on both ends, and the reason players like Shaq dominated is that they could do something great on both ends of the floor. Once you are liability on one end, it hurts your team. Just look at Trae Young as an extreme example that does nothing well on defense. Gobert can do something on offense, but he is either bad or mediocore.
However, that being said, it is not unthinakable that Gobert can be made into an offensive force. Luka could pull that off with pick and roll game, just like Luka is able to make Powell much better offensive force than any other PG could ever do. So, in a proper scheme, and I have to say Dallas is the only or one of the few teams, where Gobert could be made into a two way player. On defense, Goberts play and inability to cover perimeter, makes it necessary to play zone and channel players into him in the paint to get the most out of him.
But the real and main issue is lack of offense. If Gobert was a monster on offense, this would force other teams to play a big center, and those cant play offense as well, and this then would remove Goberts need on defense to play at the perimeter. But, because Gobert cant play offense, opposing teams are able to go smaller, and this makes also some trouble for Utah on the defensive end.
When you talk superstars, top money, you need the entire package, without any majors holes or disadvantages. For instance, Luka, Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi. Two way players. We saw Luka last game winning the game for us on the defensive end to clinch the series. There are too many things Gobert cant do, on both ends, and it puts pressure on your team, to hide those deficiencies. But in a proper scheme and surrounded by right players, Gobert could play a lot better than now. He would be better for Dallas than he is for Utah. But there would always be disadvantages that other teams could exploit. Powell, doesn't have those major holes, he is solid in most of it, moves really fast for a big guy, switches really well, can cover perimeter, and although he doesn't excell at anything other than rim rolling, sometimes not having the major disadvantage is all that matters. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
ItsGoTime > 04-30-2022, 06:13 AM
(04-30-2022, 05:15 AM)burekemde Wrote: You can't be a one-way player if you are the best. It's a huge liability for your team. The biggest problem with Gobert is not only that he can't guard the perimeter. This disadvantage is not there when proper schemes are made, as he is a monster inside in the paint that dominates defensively, arguably the best defensive player in the paint. The major problem with Gobert is that he is bad on offense. Shaq said it also. The main issue is he has no offense. If you look in the past days of NBA, the same was true, players needed to produce on both ends, and the reason players like Shaq dominated is that they could do something great on both ends of the floor. Once you are liability on one end, it hurts your team. Just look at Trae Young as an extreme example that does nothing well on defense. Gobert can do something on offense, but he is either bad or mediocore.
I think this is all true, but the risks that it doesn’t work out this way went way up after watching him for the last month or so in the regular season and in the playoffs. His coordination is pretty bad on the offensive side. I would love the offensive rebounds, but if he tries to go back up with the ball, it’s almost a waste of a stat. Kinda like Powell with the ball below his shoulders.
However, that being said, it is not unthinakable that Gobert can be made into an offensive force. Luka could pull that off with pick and roll game, just like Luka is able to make Powell much better offensive force than any other PG could ever do. So, in a proper scheme, and I have to say Dallas is the only or one of the few teams, where Gobert could be made into a two way player. On defense, Goberts play and inability to cover perimeter, makes it necessary to play zone and channel players into him in the paint to get the most out of him.
But the real and main issue is lack of offense. If Gobert was a monster on offense, this would force other teams to play a big center, and those cant play offense as well, and this then would remove Goberts need on defense to play at the perimeter. But, because Gobert cant play offense, opposing teams are able to go smaller, and this makes also some trouble for Utah on the defensive end.
When you talk superstars, top money, you need the entire package, without any majors holes or disadvantages. For instance, Luka, Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi. Two way players. We saw Luka last game winning the game for us on the defensive end to clinch the series. There are too many things Gobert cant do, on both ends, and it puts pressure on your team, to hide those deficiencies. But in a proper scheme and surrounded by right players, Gobert could play a lot better than now. He would be better for Dallas than he is for Utah. But there would always be disadvantages that other teams could exploit. Powell, doesn't have those major holes, he is solid in most of it, moves really fast for a big guy, switches really well, can cover perimeter, and although he doesn't excell at anything other than rim rolling, sometimes not having the major disadvantage is all that matters. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
burekemde > 04-30-2022, 06:23 AM
(04-30-2022, 06:13 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: I think this is all true, but the risks that it doesn’t work out this way went way up after watching him for the last month or so in the regular season and in the playoffs. His coordination is pretty bad on the offensive side. I would love the offensive rebounds, but if he tries to go back up with the ball, it’s almost a waste of a stat. Kinda like Powell with the ball below his shoulders.
I agree. I like Powell more actually. Powell is well rounded player. Powell is the reason we do switches and perimeter defense so well and that we are so fast on defense as we are. ideally, we have someone like Bam that is like Powell but stronger and better at each part. Gobert would be downgrade to Powell on perimeter defense. Huge upgrade on paint protection, but its not worth it with other deficiencies. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
DallasMaverick > 04-30-2022, 09:19 AM
(04-30-2022, 05:15 AM)burekemde Wrote: You can't be a one-way player if you are the best. It's a huge liability for your team. The biggest problem with Gobert is not only that he can't guard the perimeter. This disadvantage is not there when proper schemes are made, as he is a monster inside in the paint that dominates defensively, arguably the best defensive player in the paint. The major problem with Gobert is that he is bad on offense. Shaq said it also. The main issue is he has no offense. If you look in the past days of NBA, the same was true, players needed to produce on both ends, and the reason players like Shaq dominated is that they could do something great on both ends of the floor. Once you are liability on one end, it hurts your team. Just look at Trae Young as an extreme example that does nothing well on defense. Gobert can do something on offense, but he is either bad or mediocore.
However, that being said, it is not unthinakable that Gobert can be made into an offensive force. Luka could pull that off with pick and roll game, just like Luka is able to make Powell much better offensive force than any other PG could ever do. So, in a proper scheme, and I have to say Dallas is the only or one of the few teams, where Gobert could be made into a two way player. On defense, Goberts play and inability to cover perimeter, makes it necessary to play zone and channel players into him in the paint to get the most out of him.
But the real and main issue is lack of offense. If Gobert was a monster on offense, this would force other teams to play a big center, and those cant play offense as well, and this then would remove Goberts need on defense to play at the perimeter. But, because Gobert cant play offense, opposing teams are able to go smaller, and this makes also some trouble for Utah on the defensive end.
When you talk superstars, top money, you need the entire package, without any majors holes or disadvantages. For instance, Luka, Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi. Two way players. We saw Luka last game winning the game for us on the defensive end to clinch the series. There are too many things Gobert cant do, on both ends, and it puts pressure on your team, to hide those deficiencies. But in a proper scheme and surrounded by right players, Gobert could play a lot better than now. He would be better for Dallas than he is for Utah. But there would always be disadvantages that other teams could exploit. Powell, doesn't have those major holes, he is solid in most of it, moves really fast for a big guy, switches really well, can cover perimeter, and although he doesn't excell at anything other than rim rolling, sometimes not having the major disadvantage is all that matters.
Clearly, Powell vs. Gobert was a bad matchup for Powell on the offensive end. He can't shoot 3's well enough to draw any attention on the perimeter, and Gobert just swallowed up anything close to the rim.
How will it look against Ayton?
Ayton isn't quite the rim protector that Gobert is, but he poses a lot more of a low-post threat on offense. Will Powell get more offensive opportunities against him? Will Ayton feast in the low post against Dallas' lack of rim protection?
Because of Phoenix's outside shooting, it's hard to imagine that Dallas will double-team down low.
Inquiring minds want to know... -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
burekemde > 04-30-2022, 10:11 AM
(04-30-2022, 09:19 AM)DallasMaverick Wrote: Clearly, Powell vs. Gobert was a bad matchup for Powell on the offensive end. He can't shoot 3's well enough to draw any attention on the perimeter, and Gobert just swallowed up anything close to the rim.
How will it look against Ayton?
Ayton isn't quite the rim protector that Gobert is, but he poses a lot more of a low-post threat on offense. Will Powell get more offensive opportunities against him? Will Ayton feast in the low post against Dallas' lack of rim protection?
Because of Phoenix's outside shooting, it's hard to imagine that Dallas will double-team down low.
Inquiring minds want to know...
Maxi could get the upper hand over Ayton? Defensively, he can protect the rim and not make it easy for Ayton, offensively, Ayton would need to get outside to stop the shooting from 3 from Maxi - which then enables Luka to operate better in the paint.
Gobert might be the better player than Powell, but inability to move on defense to the perimeter exposed the entire D, whichever team he plays for, in that sense he is far from a complete defensive player. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
Winter > 04-30-2022, 06:32 PM
Some team will grab Gobert and pay him.
There are a lot of teams that will figure he's either a marketable centerpiece or a final piece. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
ThisIStheYear > 04-30-2022, 08:20 PM
Luka would get the most out of Gobert on offense. I see only positives pairing the leagues best offensive and defensive players surrounded by shooters and solid defenders. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
SwisherPrice > 04-30-2022, 10:50 PM
Gobert's offense stinks. And it's not just about a lack of touches...he just isn't skilled enough to be more than a finisher. You can't just blame Mitchell and Conley because Gobert has also played with capable passers like Hayward, Rubio and Ingles.
The thought of him getting dunks with Luka is nice but you can't run pick and rolls and get easy baskets everytime - if that was the case then the Suns offense would be unstoppable with CP3/Ayton and even the Hawks with Trae Young and Capela/Collins. In crunchtime, teams are going to switch with a smaller defender on Gobert (who won't make them pay like KP) and then take their chances guarding Luka. And then that will clog up the spacing since the Mavs can't run their preferred 5-out offense since Gobert can't shoot. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
MrGoat > 05-01-2022, 12:24 AM
(04-30-2022, 10:50 PM)SwisherPrice Wrote: Gobert's offense stinks. And it's not just about a lack of touches...he just isn't skilled enough to be more than a finisher. You can't just blame Mitchell and Conley because Gobert has also played with capable passers like Hayward, Rubio and Ingles.
The thought of him getting dunks with Luka is nice but you can't run pick and rolls and get easy baskets everytime - if that was the case then the Suns offense would be unstoppable with CP3/Ayton and even the Hawks with Trae Young and Capela/Collins. In crunchtime, teams are going to switch with a smaller defender on Gobert (who won't make them pay like KP) and then take their chances guarding Luka. And then that will clog up the spacing since the Mavs can't run their preferred 5-out offense since Gobert can't shoot.
You get it. Adding Gobert would be about adding a unique defensive threat down low. Any dreams of Luka unlocking hidden offense there are a pipe dream. He flat out sucks on offense and there's no nice way to put it -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
SleepingHero > 05-01-2022, 02:23 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDTrUdGRUvA
Great video about the Utah Jazz and highlighting Gobert's value. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
ThisIStheYear > 05-01-2022, 09:20 AM
(04-30-2022, 10:50 PM)SwisherPrice Wrote: Gobert's offense stinks. And it's not just about a lack of touches...he just isn't skilled enough to be more than a finisher. You can't just blame Mitchell and Conley because Gobert has also played with capable passers like Hayward, Rubio and Ingles.
The thought of him getting dunks with Luka is nice but you can't run pick and rolls and get easy baskets everytime - if that was the case then the Suns offense would be unstoppable with CP3/Ayton and even the Hawks with Trae Young and Capela/Collins. In crunchtime, teams are going to switch with a smaller defender on Gobert (who won't make them pay like KP) and then take their chances guarding Luka. And then that will clog up the spacing since the Mavs can't run their preferred 5-out offense since Gobert can't shoot.
Who’s talking about every time? No one thinks you build an offense around him. Luka, JB, and Widdie will get the big points. Gobert just has to be a threat, and at that, he’s a nice upgrade over Powell, while they’re worlds apart on defense and rebounding, where Gobert is an all time great. 13 & 12 with near 70% true shooting and elite paint protection in a bad series vs what Powell can give you even when he’s in a good matchup (and I like Powell, but still) is probably the difference between winning and losing a championship everything else being relatively equal. And sure, you’d have to shed THJ and Bertan’s salaries ( neither are relevant on the court) and Powell’s as well to realistically add Gobert with everything else relatively equal, but the resulting team would be a title favorite. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
burekemde > 05-01-2022, 09:56 AM
(05-01-2022, 09:20 AM)ThisIStheYear Wrote: while they’re worlds apart on defense and rebounding, where Gobert is an all time great.
I am not sure about this statement. Powell is an all around defender, not great at any part, but also not bad at any part. Gobert is a spacialist at the paint. Powell is far better in team defense, switching, movement, 3pt protection etc. Sometimes, not having gaps in your game, is the best skill you can have. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
michaeltex > 05-01-2022, 11:21 AM
(05-01-2022, 12:24 AM)MrGoat Wrote: You get it. Adding Gobert would be about adding a unique defensive threat down low. Any dreams of Luka unlocking hidden offense there are a pipe dream. He flat out sucks on offense and there's no nice way to put it
Too right!
Gobert made $35MM+ this season and is in the first year of a 5 year deal that will pay him:
$38MM+ in 22-23
$41MM in 23-24
$43.8MM in 24-25
$46.6MM in 25-26 (PO)
No way in hell is he worth that cap space, never mind the tax hit that would come with it. IMO, just the salary alone make Gobert trade talks a non-starter, given his limitations. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
mvossman > 05-01-2022, 12:31 PM
(05-01-2022, 12:24 AM)MrGoat Wrote: You get it. Adding Gobert would be about adding a unique defensive threat down low. Any dreams of Luka unlocking hidden offense there are a pipe dream. He flat out sucks on offense and there's no nice way to put it
It's interesting that folks are saying this. He scores 15 points a game with unreal efficiency (over 70% TS this year) and is an excellent offensive rebounder. Advanced stats struggle to capture defensive value, but they do a very good job capturing offensive value. All of them, whether its box score based or on/off based consider Gobert a significantly better offensive player than Powell. We saw the difference in Powell's game when playing with Luka vs without in the playoffs. Gobert would likely see a similar jump playing with Luka, vs Mitchell.
I'm not sure Gobert can punish small ball enough to force it off the court, even with Luka. That does not mean he would get played off the court, but it does mean he would have to play more at the perimeter, and that takes away a lot of his defensive value (but not all of it).
Not crazy about his salary or the issues he seems to have with other NBA players, but if we could get him cheap (filler salary and the first) I feel like you still make that play. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
ThisIStheYear > 05-01-2022, 11:22 PM
(05-01-2022, 11:21 AM)michaeltex Wrote: Too right!
Gobert made $35MM+ this season and is in the first year of a 5 year deal that will pay him:
$38MM+ in 22-23
$41MM in 23-24
$43.8MM in 24-25
$46.6MM in 25-26 (PO)
No way in hell is he worth that cap space, never mind the tax hit that would come with it. IMO, just the salary alone make Gobert trade talks a non-starter, given his limitations.
Truly, that’s a terrible salary given his age. But not sure it’s much worse than the combined salaries of THJ, Bertans, and Powell. -
RE: I was right, Kamm was wrong (ab Gobert)
Mapka > 05-02-2022, 01:06 AM
(05-01-2022, 11:22 PM)ThisIStheYear Wrote: Truly, that’s a terrible salary given his age. But not sure it’s much worse than the combined salaries of THJ, Bertans, and Powell.
I think this depends on what kind of franchise you are and what players you already have.
But I'm sure to Utah the answer is Gorbert fits them better und to the Mavs they are better of with Powell THJ.
If they let Gorbert go, zhey need a t least one good pick.
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